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Sunday, October 9, 2016

Newsflash: that's how most guys talk

You've undoubtedly heard of the recording from eleven years ago where Donald Trump talked about how he tried to have sex with a married woman.

Trump said:

"She was down in Palm Beach and I moved on her. I moved on her and I failed. I'll admit it. I did try and fuck her. She was married....You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful women, I just start kissing them, it's like a magnet. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything....."

Now, all sorts of politicians are claiming to be shocked, shocked I tell you, by Trump's vulgarity. According to the Washington Post:

After the video appeared online Friday afternoon, Democratic nominee Hillary Clinton wrote on Twitter: “This is horrific. We cannot allow this man to become president.” 

[No one could ever accuse Hillary of being self-serving.]

Her running mate, Sen. Tim Kaine (Va.), told reporters, “It makes me sick to my stomach,” while campaigning in Las Vegas.

[Funny, he himself evoked that same reaction from much of the audience during the VP debate.]

Planned Parenthood Action Fund, which has endorsed Clinton, issued a statement from Executive Vice President Dawn Laguens saying: “What Trump described in these tapes amounts to sexual assault.”

[But there's a big difference between merely describing it and actually doing it, as Bill Clinton did.]

Trump was also criticized by members of his own party. House Speaker Paul D. Ryan, who said he is “sickened” by Trump’s comments, said the Republican presidential candidate will no longer appear with him at a campaign event in Wisconsin on Saturday. “Women are to be championed and revered, not objectified. I hope Mr. Trump treats this situation with the seriousness it deserves and works to demonstrate to the country that he has greater respect for women than this clip suggests.”

Ryan's holier-than-thou posturing is particularly sickening, given that he's obviously lusting after the 2020 nomination, and is hoping that Trump does not get elected -- and Hillary does -- which will clear the path for him.

It's hard to believe that any of the people who've claimed to be so shocked at Donald Trump's words are actually all that shocked, since this is the way most men talk when they're with their buddies. In fact, the only guys who never talk like this are stiffs (~20% of the male population), true gentlemen (~1%), gay men (~4 or 5%), and self-righteous, hypocritical politicians (<1% of the population, though that description fits > 90% of politicians).

I'm guessing Paul Ryan falls into at least two of those categories, and "true gentlemen" is not one of them. 

And what did that tape tell us that we didn't already know? That Trump is an egotistical boor? We already knew that.

So what? Hillary is a corrupt, traitorous sociopath.

A couple things from that tape. First, note that Trump admitted to failing his seduction attempt. His honesty puts him a level above many men, who simply lie about their manly pursuits. (For instance, Paul Ryan, who ran a marathon in 4:01:25 and then claimed to have broken three hours.)

Second, I doubt that Trump ever once made a pass at a woman by grabbing her by the pussy. Whatever his other failings, Trump is undoubtedly a man of the world. As such, he had undoubtedly learned by age 59 that starting off an attempted seduction that way is not the most effective method of landing a woman in bed.

Trump was obviously just trying to make a point by exaggerating what he could get away with as a celeb. There was a certain schoolyard bravado to his words; if you want to say that's pathetic for a 59-year-old, I won't argue.

But better empty boasting than what Bill Clinton did, which was to actually did grope -- and in some cases, rape -- women against their will.

If Hillary brings up the recent video in the debate tonight, Trump should respond, "Hillary, I just talked about it -- which I regret. Your husband has actually done those things, and worse. You've said I shouldn't be President because of my words. Do you feel your husband should never have been President because of his actions? And while we're at it, you were in charge of the war room dealing with all the so-called bimbo eruptions around Bill. You savaged all of those poor women who were Bill's victims. Does this mean you shouldn't be President?"

42 comments:

The Ambivalent Misanthrope said...

Was there ever a true gentleman occupying the Presidential office?

Anonymous said...

I don't think that's how most guys talk. Some, of course, but most?

Maybe in college? In the Army? But at some point, you age out of that talk and the proof is in the pudding. Everyone knows your deal, and you don't need to go around informing everyone of it.

Of course, I am a woman, so you can discount that. But I have been around some pretty macho guys (esp. cops) and yes, some are like this, but to me, his comments reek of braggadaccio. None of the really great guys I've known -- and by great, I mean that combination of attracting women and leading men -- do a lot of shit-talking.

All the serious shit-talkers I have known clearly felt they had something to prove.

Anyway, I predict this will have .00001 percent influence on the election.

-Gardner

John Craig said...

Ambivalent Misanthrope --
There probably was, back in the old days, depending on what you're willing to overlook, I suppose. But I was referring to the population overall, not the occupants at 1600 Pennsylvania.

Anonymous said...

@AM,

Woodrow Wilson?

@John,

We need an alternative word to "sick" and "sickened" and "sick to my stomach." Even YOU used the words. It gets repetitive.

To the subject: Who wrote that dialogue? Woody Allen or David Mamet? I got for David Mamet, he's the grittier of the two. Amazingly, Alec Baldwin, who did a pretty good Trump, has made a specialty of David Mamet portrayals.

(My conoisseur's ranking of Alec Baldwin is that he was a solid 8 who shrank to a 4. It's that old devil weight gain!)

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Gardner --
I hope you're right about the influence on the election.

Most guys who talk that way don't do so in the presence of females. I've been around a lot of guys, and while I've never known one who said he could get away with just grabbing at a woman's crotch, most guys will have relatively harmless discussions featuring "Would you do her?" sorts of questions, and answers.

And, yes, I'm as guilty in this respect as anyone, though I've never recommended what Trump did. (Then again, I've never been a celeb, so.....)

Agreed, excessive shit-talking often means something's wrong. But I would point out, once again, that at least Trump admitted to his failure with this woman, which is more than some guys will do. And that whole bit about what he could get away with as a celeb may actually have been partly an attempt to sort of make up for this admitted failure. I've felt that tug myself; once you've admitted to some sort of weakness, you feel an urge to point out some strength, in order to not appear a complete loser. (Which is undoubtedly one of Trump's greatest fears, given how often he uses that word.)

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
Okay, I'll try to broaden my vocabulary. I suppose "nauseating" would have been better in that sentence. (I suppose I was channeling my inner Tim Kaine since I had just quoted him using the same word five paragraphs previous.)

Definitely Mamet. Trump is pretty much the opposite of Woody Allen. Allen writes male characters like himself, introspective, neurotic, and somewhat timid. That's not Trump.

Ha! Yes, you've nailed it once again with Baldwin. Your rating system for men is infallible. (Though, as you know, men just HATE being reduced to number like that; it's so chauvinist.)

The Ambivalent Misanthrope said...

@Puzzled

LOL about Alec Baldwin. Yep, right on. Ranking goes proportionately down with weight gain.
I'll have to read up on Woodrow Wilson. I remember he left a good impression on me in my American History classes.

@JohnCraig:

OK, my reaction to the Trump video was a yawn with the exact same thought: Most guys talk like that amongst themselves. But do they do so at freaking 59? We're not talking about a frat house or the locker room or even happy hour after work... He was verging on senior citizen status there.

Jokah Macpherson said...

Was Baldwin's character in Glengarry supposed to be a Mamet stand-in?

Steve Sailer has argued that Woody Allen's real-life personality is much more assertive and stereotypically alpha than the version of himself he portrays in some of his movies.

I feel it necessary to point out that women are people too and most women like fucking and having their pussies grabbed within the right context (even if they wouldn't usually express it in exactly in those terms), and they can definitely use colorful language of their own in certain situations. It's only people like Ryan who are out saying women are special snowflakes to be revered or whatever. Agree this has minimal affect on peoples' actual votes.

Mark Caplan said...

David Letterman said about Trump, "If you see somebody who’s not behaving like any other human you’ve known, that means something."

I'll vote for Trump because of what I think his stance on immigration is and my views on Hillary. At the same time, Letterman's point is sobering. Trump's character and inner drives do seem uniquely unpredictable, like someone who might well be completely nuts.

The Ambivalent Misanthrope said...

@JohnCraig:

Ah, those numbers, chauvinism, and men hating to be 'measured' that way... I'm sorry, II couldn't help going there. Every quarter of an inch counts! There's also circumference, which matters almost as much but is often overlooked in the standard assessment. How many guys have secretly done both self-measures --- and admitted them? :-D

John Craig said...

Ambivalent Misanthrope --
Maybe we should give him credit for having kept in touch with his inner teenager.

John Craig said...

Jokah --
Good point about women.

That's surprising about Allen, but I guess not surprising in a way too. He seems to have been cut out in life to have been the nebbishy character he portrays, but he did become a big star and is thus a situational alpha, and can throw his weight around.

I don't know enough about Mamet to answer your question, maybe someone else here can.

John Craig said...

Mark --
I have to disagree with you here: the point of this post is that Trump is like most guys, even if he is a little more egotistical. He actually is sort of predictable, because of his narcissistic personality, and that's what Hillary's handlers were banking on when they set him up in that first debate with those obviously well thought out suggestions they had Hillary make about how maybe Trump wasn't as rich as he suggested, etc. They knew that Trump would have to respond, and so would lose his message, and he acted according to form.

I'm going to have to hold my nose to vote for him too, but it's because he's such a narcissist, not because he's nuts. I think he's quite sane, but just doesn't have complete control of his inner kid.

John Craig said...

Ambivalent Misanthrope --
That wasn't what Puzzled (or I) were talking about, but you are of course completely correct.

Steven said...

Its fairly normal for guys to talk crudely about women and sex but its not normal to say you grab women by the pussy who you just met, whether you mean it or not. That would definitely seem a bit weird to me and saying you can do anything because you're famous doesn't exactly make it better. I don't think this is totally equivalent to normal bar room banter.

If the woman who filed the sexual assault lawsuit against Trump in the 90's was telling the truth in that video, its definitely inappropriate behaviour and borderline sexual assault if he acted in a sudden and aggressive way with her husband in the next room. That's evidence he has in fact put his hand up a woman's skirt, more or less as described. he really did it even if its not the most effective way to get a woman into bed. Maybe its his style. She may have tolerated some of his advances previously but its not totally fine to be grabby with a woman who looks up to you and depends on you for a business deal.

Even if guys talk like that in private, it doesn't mean they want their kids to hear it or their daughters to hear a guy talk like that and still have dads support and become president. They can take exception to what he said without being hypocrites because saying it in public as a public servant is different.

As a narcissist, Trump likes to talk and impress and he probably does feels as entitled and desired as it sounded. I don't think Trump is a serious sexual predator though and this wouldn't be a total deal breaker for me either if I was strongly on board with his manifesto but I do see it as a bit worse than you are making out, even if Hillary is a worse person and the press are biased.

I agree they should be more balanced and also point out how bad Hillary is. If they did it would at least even it out and that's fair. I'd like this election to be decided on the issues.

Anonymous said...

@Ambivalent,

I'm enjoying the fact that John understands my clinical assessments of men. This is really not feminist put the shoe on the other foot one-up-womanship. It's the way I really am. And John is one of the few people I've ever encountered who really doesn't believe in "I'm offended!" ever. It's fun.

@John and Jokah,

I'm sure that Allen is not the nebbish he appears to be onscreen. I was referring only to the writing style, and subject, and John's right. When I read the transcript I wasn't sure who it resembled, but it's definitely Mamet. Allen would never get that crude - plus the rhythm of the speech is pure Mamet. Mamet became famous by riffing on guys like Trump. Maybe Trump then imitated Mamet?

The phrase "grabe them by the pussy" sounds horrifying taken out of context. It's still excuse me, sickening, but in context not as bad.

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Steven --
I'd love to see the election decided on the issues, too, but the media is doing their best to prevent that.

The Ambivalent Misanthrope said...

I know... I was just goofing off and taking the discussion off on a tangent --- sorry it didn't make sense --. I was agreeing obliquely with Jokah about women being people too... ;-) As if (some) women don't do the equivalent kind of talk... Granted, women will generally use more subterfuge and indirect signifiers, but really, when you boil it down, a woman showing off and boasting about her ginormous engagement ring is saying: My fiancee/husband-to-be has a big cock. In a figurative sense (he may or may not in terms of actual physical inches) but to my mind it's just as vulgar as Trump's comments.

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
Thank you. Yes, true enough, "I'm offensive" is more my style.

And yes, "grab them by" wouldn't sound nearly so bad if it were just "place your hand gently on." Trump has all sorts of faults, but one of them is not lifting women up and carrying them around by their genitals. He tries to sound more macho than he is.

John Craig said...

Ambivalent Misanthrope --
You've just hit on a great truth: Trump should not be running "The Apprentice," he's really much more suited for "Real Housewives of NY." He probably has, psychologically speaking, more in common with them than with the aspiring business people on "The Apprentice."

Jokah Macpherson said...

"Lifting women up and carrying them around by their genitals."

There's a dirty joke related to this that I first heard from older kid when I was in 8th grade on a church mission trip.

John Craig said...

Jokah --
C'mon, you can't just tell us there IS a joke without telling us the joke.

That's almost as bad as, "I know a secret."

Anonymous said...

Good post…..

I just watched the video – and considering the nature of the banter, I find it much less offensive than its been made out to be.

Did he know he was being recorded? And if so, what was the purpose of the recording supposed to be?

Does this matter? To me it is a massive point.

This recording sounds like some idle BS on the Howard Stern show. And a large part of Howard Stern’s appeal is that he was like a stream of consciousness of the unbridled male mind.

I was once told that men would be shocked to read what’s on the bathroom wall in the women’s room. This was from a woman, who was pointing out that women can be more crude than men.

And to suggest that women don’t understand the game, down to its grittiest details, is utter nonsense.

Ed

John Craig said...

Ed/All --
I have to say, I like the way this entire discussion has gradually shifted from having an implicitly anti-male tone to a vaguely anti-female one.

And yes, there is something to be said for private conversations remaining private, though hot mikes seem to be considered fair game.

John Craig said...

Ed/All --
I have to say, I sorta like the way this entire discussion has gradually shifted from having an implicitly anti-male tone to a vaguely anti-female one, especially on the part of some of the female commenters. (I'm not being entirely serious here, but I do like the realism.)

And yes, there is something to be said for private conversations remaining private, though hot mikes seem to be considered fair game.

Mark Caplan said...

I just watched the infamous video. "You can do anything -- grab them by the p---sy" was obviously meant as a joke, not as a confession of sexual assault that the media tried to make it out to be. The great Lothario then goes on to chastely air-kiss soap-opera star Arianne Zucker.

John Craig said...

Mark --
I took it as a metaphor, his way of saying he could get away with a lot, certainly not as something he actually did.

Steven said...

I watched half of the debate and I thought Trump won it, especially the personal stuff at the start. The build up reminded me of the build up to a boxing match and Trump was the fighter who rose to the occasion and brought his A game when it mattered most.

Still, its a bit depressing that the main argument in a presidential debate, even between the actual candidates, is basically about who is the worst person out of the two, not the best. That a country of 300 million people these are the two candidates for leader doesn't speak that well of the political system.

John Craig said...

Steven --
I found myself unable to declare winner last night. They both pretty much acted like themselves, we all know who both of them are, and people -- me included -- tend to see what they want to see. And, sure enough, this morning each side is declaring that their candidate won, though the Hillary supporters are less jubilant than after the first debate, which is probably an indication that Trump may have won.

Anonymous said...

John,

Disappointed you would think anything I write is anti-female. (LOL)

Good reading:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/trumped-outrage-14777.html

"Now why might it be that men regard women as sex objects? Surely the ravenous purchase by females of stiletto heels, push-up bras, butt-hugging mini-skirts, plunging necklines, false eyelashes, hair extensions, breast implants, butt implants, lip implants, and mascara, rouge, and lipstick to the tune of billions a year has nothing to do with it"

Interesting, isn't it, that in the horrible evil awful sexist 1950s, whose beauty standards you and I have referenced many times here, women didn't buy any of those things? I used to be involved in theatrical makeup (no further details) and I've watched in horror as the techniques that are used on stage, to make men and women project a natural face to an audience a couple hundred feet away, is now considered normal daily maquillage for young women with no skin problems. It's sick. And then they talk about why girls have no self-confidence...

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
That IS an excellent article. MacDonald usually writes about racial politics, she's equally on target here in pointing out liberal hypocrisy. And she's particularly good at pointing out what a joke the NY Times is.

Anonymous said...

MacDonald is great.

Pic of Grace Kelly, with no makeup:

http://classicmoviechat.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Grace-Kelly-1.jpg

Look closely, not a trace of makeup, unplucked brows. Maybe a bit of lip gloss. Bring back the good old days!

Puzzled

Pangur said...

Trump crushed it, just as I thought he would yesterday, despite all the gaslighting from the left on this b.s. "pussygate" issue. Hillary was on defense for the debate, and Trump threw serious red meat to his base in the form of calling the Clintons to the carpet on their epically sleazy sexual behavior.

Please note that none of the debates have yet gotten into immigration, Trump's strongest issue. Saving that issue for last seems like a strong move.

Finally, the cucks' latest reaction to Trump this is the last straw, these people need to be purged from the party (as if that hasn't already happened).

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
Yes she was great, pretty much perfect. I remember reading once that she was very unhappy being in Monaco. I guess being married to a prince sounds sort of fairy tale-like, but happily ever after only exists in the fairy tales.

John Craig said...

Pangur --
The only problem is, the cucks basically ARE the Republican Party. Maybe it's time for a new party, although splintering the Republicans would of course just be a Democrat's wet dream.

I thought Trump was good, not great. He repeats himself too much, and someone in his campaign needs to consult a thesaurus and come up with a synonym for "disaster." He's got a far better platform, and he did a better job than last time, but he still needs to hit her harder on immigration, as you say, and also the crime issue. Hillary has placed herself squarely in the BLM camp, Trump is for law and order, that should theoretically be another strong point for him.

Pangur said...

You're overstating, I suspect, the degree to which the "the cucks" have power any more. Yes, these people have a public face, but the voters have realigned, which is why they nominated Trump, not Cruz or Jeb (Who, were either running, would be cruising to a record defeat by Hillary. Trump can win this thing.)

Immigration will be for the third debate.

John Craig said...

Pangur --
Don't get me wrong, I HOPE you're right. But the power structure at the RNC is filled with cucks, most Republicans in both the Senate and House fit that description, their leadership -- McConnell and Ryan -- do, and even Trump's VP candidate, Pence, is closer in outlook to those other guys than he is to Trump. Trump is far closer to the UKIP, Nigel Farage, and all the far right parties in Europe than virtually anyone else on the political scene, and he's the only prominent politician I can think of who is, yet even Trump is not quite in tune with the nationalist parties of Europe. You're right, he got the nomination because the voters liked his policies, and there is a huge hunger from the electorate for more politicians with his outlook on immigration and trade, but so far there's more hunger than there are politicians.

Pangur said...

Taking a step back, I'd say that the outcome of the election is somewhat irrelevant given current demographic and economic trends. Trump might offer some respite, but I find it hard to believe that he'll restore anything. He's a transitional figure (as Hillary is a figure of the past), and we'll see what's coming but it won't be the same as before.

Mark Caplan said...

On the topic of Trump isn't like you or me (or any other sane person):

1. When daughter Ivanka was in her early 20s, Trump talked about her sexual attractions with the contemptible Jewish sleazeball Howard Stern on his syndicated radio show. Trump discussed the ample size of "voluptuous" Ivanka's breasts, and agreed she was a hot "piece of ass."

2. By his admission, he has no friends.

3. By his admission, he doesn't (or can't because of ADHD?) read books.

4. He gets by with little sleep.

5. He can't focus on anything longer than a couple of minutes.

6. He invests in golf courses (golf's popularity is in steep decline).

7. To combat terrorism, he expects U.S. soldiers to torture the terrorist's family members.

8. He describes ordinary problems or programs as a "catastrophe," a "disaster," "the worst in American or human history." The Canadian single-payer healthcare system is a "catastrophe." (Several months ago Trump said he favored a single-payer system). Hillary's tax plan is a "disaster" for the country. Hillary "has been a disaster as a senator." "NAFTA [...] is perhaps the greatest disaster [sic] trade deal in the history of the world." "The education [of blacks in the inner cities] is a disaster." (True, but not because the government runs the schools.) The slow growth of jobs in America "are a disaster." That's all from just last Sunday's debate.

John Craig said...

Mark --
You said above that Trump might be "completely nuts," which I disagreed with, though I probably went too far when I said he was "like most other guys, except more egotistical." The points you just made do indicate that he is not normal; but do they rise to the level of "completely nuts?"

Anyway, in order:
1. I agree, that's creepy, though not quite "nuts" (but also not like other guys). I have to confess, I like Howard Stern; yes, he is sleazy, and his politics are disgusting (he would have us bomb all of Israel's enemies), but he's also far more honest than most on personal matters.
2. Also not normal, though that seems to be not uncommon among big business magnates; they have tons of acquaintances, and no real friends. With an extremely narcissistic personality, like Trump, you either have to be a toadying yes man or he doesn't want you around.
3. and 5. Ah, ADHD, that would explain his lack of depth on so many issues, and his unwillingness to sit down and do his homework on foreign leaders, etc. Great insight.
4. That's just a matter of physiology.
6. He seems to do pretty well with them though. (Doesn't he? I'm not sure.)
7. Agree, that's just stupid.
8. Yes, he definitely needs to break out a thesaurus. And he's also definitely guilty of hyperbole, though that's not uncommon for politicians who are campaigning against someone else's record.

gambino dellacroce said...

Our national leftard social/political commentator darling Waleed Aly, gets told by Gavin McInnes who correctly assesses it as part of the ongoing war on masculinity:

http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/tv/current-affairs/cofounder-of-vice-media-gavin-mcinnes-launches-attack-on-waleed-aly-claims-attack-on-masculinity/news-story/5b409dc90232ace860478a1ff065c4a7?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=News.com.au&utm_medium=Facebook

Interestingly, Gavin observes Australia as a "hot Canada" which in my opinion is spot on. Chief in his insults were "micro penis". Gavin has a hilarious way with words and hits the truth. Yet commentators are lining up to burnish their liberal and feminist credentials with hysterical claims of rape, despite Trump's quote clearly articulating consent was involved in the [undetailed] examples Trump gives:

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/hey-donald-trump-this-is-what-is-really-said-in-the-locker-room-20161012-gs0c2c.html

John, this is what I have to deal with in Australia. I'm getting closer to independent income thank god and seriously thinking of relocating to Asia.

John Craig said...

Gambino --
Gavin McInnes is great. One thing he said in that article really resonated: whenever he sees a white girl in a hijab, he feels sorry for her father. That's exactly my reaction. And he also expressed my feeling about Australia perfectly: I thought they hadn't been infected as much by the politically correct virus. All the Australian guys I've met have been very much regular guys, and actually made a pretty big effort to come across that way, which made me think that that's valued in that culture. But my impressions may be a little out of date.

The liberal media has attached the words "sexual assault" to what Trump described. He specifically said that it was amazing what you could get away with as a star. The use of the words "get away with" indicates that he wasn't talking about assault, but the kind of behavior women would accept from a star. Bill Clinton actually assaulted women, at Oxford (with Eileen Wellstone), at Yale Law (with an unnamed 22-year-old coed), in Arkansas (wth Juanita Broaddrick), and undoubtedly on other occasions as well. But the media for the most part wouldn't even look at those cases.

Good luck with the independent income. Asia hasn't been infected with the PC virus, but you may end up feeling like a stranger in a strange land there.