tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post8220479633226715876..comments2024-02-17T04:06:00.805-05:00Comments on Just Not Said: The Olympics, Part IJohn Craighttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-9320133250314488392016-08-08T11:50:15.880-04:002016-08-08T11:50:15.880-04:00Luqman --
Agreed, the all or none approach (which ...Luqman --<br />Agreed, the all or none approach (which includes total cynicism) is often wrong too. <br /><br />Yes, there are more subtle, i.e., less visible ways to cheat. Steroids are the most visible form of cheating: if you take them, the changes in your body will be visible to anybody who's observant about these things. And they don't just make you all around thicker and meatier, they do so in very specific ways: they makes your trapezius jut up from your shoulder, they give you a very defined line between your pectoral muscles, they displace blood veins (and force them to pop to the surface), that's how you get those veins in the front of your shoulders. Plus they make your deltoids sharply defined and convex, and make the muscles on the outside of your forearm bulge. At the same time, they can leave your neck relatively skinny, and will generally not increase the thickness of your legs as much as the thickness of your torso. <br /><br />The more subtle ways to cheat are with human growth hormone, which helps you recover more quickly from workouts but doesn't really change your outward appearance all that much; with blood doping, which increases your endurance; and with EPO, which also increases your endurance. <br /><br />A number of people have suggested what you have, just saying screw it, everything is allowed. I actually wouldn't mind having a separate league for that, the way they effectively do in body-building. Then they can have their separate set of records, all of which would have an asterisk next to them. But I wouldn't want to open up ordinary competition to that. And right now, the pity is that a lot of the existing records should have asterisks next to them, but don't. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-85414337308596148732016-08-08T10:32:45.859-04:002016-08-08T10:32:45.859-04:00Not at all John, I trust your intuition and reason...Not at all John, I trust your intuition and reasoning in this matter far more than my own conclusions. I am not particularly interested in swimming and it is easy to be either totally credulous or utterly cynical. Those who appear to be the most cynical (e.g. `of course they all cheat, <i>everyone</i> knows that`) often dont really seem to have much of a clue at all in my experience.<br /><br />That said, I was reading Razib Khan`s blog before I read your post and a few things stood out to me in this link (plus the NYT excerpt it contains): http://www.unz.com/gnxp/cheaters-prosper-bayesians-dont/<br /><br />- The enormous social pressure to keep mum about doping<br />- The possibility of more subtle methods of cheating<br />- The obviousness of it even in the 70s<br />- The results generally being as expected despite the above<br /><br />Do you perceive a difference in apparent doping between men`s and women`s swimming? <br /><br />I certainly agree with you that the moral crime of doping in an environment where nearly all your competitors are doing it is significantly less serious. At some level it is always an abuse of the trust of the people who watch and emotionally invest themselves in these sports, but yeah, would not hold it againt Bolt for instance.<br /><br />The doping arms race itself seems so fascinating, I am sure I would eagerly watch events in which it was accepted. Push mankind as far as it can go without the worry of shame breathing down your neck. Not saying it would be a good thing but certainly entertaining!Luqmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12144548172937229260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-41590148133041581722016-08-08T08:00:00.896-04:002016-08-08T08:00:00.896-04:00Luqman --
Maybe this will make me sound biased and...Luqman --<br />Maybe this will make me sound biased and naive, but I think swimming is a relatively clean sport. I tend to be a suspicious guy, and my list of suspects in swimming is longer than that of most swimming fans. I think Russia and Brazil and China have a high proportion of dirty swimmers, and I can think of several prominent US swimmers over the past decade and a half who I'm pretty sure were doping but never got caught. And the French have had a couple of fairly obvious dopers too. But I do think most swimmers are clean. I think Phelps, Lochte, Ledecky, and Hagino are clean. <br /><br />Track and field and weight-lifting and cycling are traditionally dirty sports. I doubt there's been a single winner of the 100 meter dash in the past two decades who's been clean. (And I'm a big Usain Bolt fan.) But there, I almost hold it against the dopers less, since doping just puts them on a level playing field with everyone else. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-59038806865438339842016-08-08T03:51:13.294-04:002016-08-08T03:51:13.294-04:00I think they are mostly cheating. At the top level...I think they are mostly cheating. At the top levels of performance the differences must be relatively minor, and the reward for getting away with it is very significant incentive. If one or two cheat, it would make the playing field lopsided (especially for women, where the gains are relatively greater) in a way we dont really see. The only possibilities then become almost no cheating or rampant abuse. With all the revelations over the course of the last few years (or if one paid attention, decades) it does not seem to be the former. Really, as you noted, it seems quite obvious. Everyone involved must be aware of it at some level as well, once you think about it. It is the competitors one would expect to care and notice most. Probably the hosts have the greatest advantage in this regard, if so I expect Brazil to significantly improve its overall performance this olympics.<br /><br />When it came out that Russia was being significantly penalized I was quite amused.Luqmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12144548172937229260noreply@blogger.com