tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post343500033212010306..comments2024-02-17T04:06:00.805-05:00Comments on Just Not Said: Chauvin being viewed through the wrong lensJohn Craighttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-51405685882855627792020-06-16T17:24:36.023-04:002020-06-16T17:24:36.023-04:00Anon --
That's a great article, thanks for sen...Anon --<br />That's a great article, thanks for sending. That guy is far better informed than me. I thought Ellison was overreaching when he asked for a murder two charge (there was no way Chauvin was killing him on purpose, especially in public like that), but it seemed to me that Ellison was covering his bases by also charging him with murder three and manslaughter. Given that he made all three charges like that, I doubt he wants to lose the use on purpose in order to foment more discord. <br /><br />But that article was really illuminating. I knew about the various drugs in Floyd's system, but I hadn't realized that he'd said he couldn't breathe even before he was on the ground. I also hadn't realized that that neck restraint was approved by the Minneapolis PD. And I'd never even heard of that syndrome; hearing the EMTs talk about it was enlightening. Another thing I hadn't realized until recently, I read somewhere that Floyd was 6'6" and one of the pictures I saw of him in that sleeveless tank top made him look absolutely jacked. I can see why the cops might have been afraid of him, especially since that excited delirium syndrome gives you added strength and endurance. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-91311977839685952792020-06-16T16:55:30.969-04:002020-06-16T16:55:30.969-04:00Finally someone in the media room uncovering some ...Finally someone in the media room uncovering some facts, explaining dispassionately and in depth: <br />https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911<br />So did Keith Ellison purposely overcharge to cause future unrest when a not-guilty verdict comes in?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-71303428623712058962020-06-15T18:25:44.050-04:002020-06-15T18:25:44.050-04:00Europeasant --
Where are you planning to go?
BTW...Europeasant --<br />Where are you planning to go? <br /><br />BTW, after that reference to your serf forebears in your earlier comment, it finally dawned on me what "Europeasant" refers to, other than European ancestry.John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-9809822317954901112020-06-15T18:09:10.242-04:002020-06-15T18:09:10.242-04:00"And there's been far more black-on-white..."And there's been far more black-on-white than white-on-black violence in the past 50 years. I've quote this statistic a number of times on the blog, but for the past 30 years or so, when a black commits a violent crime, he chooses a white victim 47.7% of the time;"<br /><br />That's why almost all people will move farther and farther away until there's no place to move to. A new dystopian novel is in the works. Sure to supplant the escape movies "Escape from New York" etc. We are seeing the future and it isn't too pretty. The savages are taking over.<br /><br />BTW I'll be long gone by then.europeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08951522357562754733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-8524681919568800642020-06-15T16:00:08.881-04:002020-06-15T16:00:08.881-04:00Alter Ego --
Thanks for that. There's no quest...Alter Ego --<br />Thanks for that. There's no question, what happened to him was inexcusable, but the worst part of it is what happened in 1957 and 1967, which was a different era. But whenever I hear a story like that, or have to be reminded of Emmet Till yet again, I think, we're living in a different era now. And there's been far more black-on-white than white-on-black violence in the past 50 years. I've quote this statistic a number of times on the blog, but for the past 30 years or so, when a black commits a violent crime, he chooses a white victim 47.7% of the time; when. white commits violent crime, he close a black victim 3.9% of the time. And add to that the fact that according to D of J statistics, blacks commit murder at a rate 8 to 10 times higher than the white rate. Those are the most salient facts facing us, yet you never hear them. Instead, whenever there is an egregious case of white cops killing a black, the media focuses on that for weeks and leaves us all with the impression that white cops are out to kill blacks, which simply isn't true. There are cases of black cops killing whites, too, as with that Somali cop in Minneapolis a few years ago who shot the Australian woman who called for the police, and knocked on their car window when they arrived. Those types of cases get very little publicity, and when they do, there is no public outcry for reform. One of the four cops involved in the George Floyd killing was black, but the media never mention that. Or when Freddie Gray was killed in Baltimore, at least three of the six officers involved were black, yet most of the media wouldn't shows their pictures for the first week of coverage. (I remember being surprised when I saw them for the first time.) The media's agenda is to give a skewed impression of things, even if they have to go back to 1957 or 1967 to do so. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-5023201446500307742020-06-15T13:19:13.730-04:002020-06-15T13:19:13.730-04:00Here's some more food for thought: https://www...Here's some more food for thought: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/06/11/floyd-killing-police-must-change-former-detroit-chief-column/5341884002/Alter Egonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-29770645501077909302020-06-14T11:14:19.961-04:002020-06-14T11:14:19.961-04:00Alter Ego --
Will only be blogging extremely spora...Alter Ego --<br />Will only be blogging extremely sporadically, but thank you. <br /><br />I had seen something about that in passing, though I haven't paid too close attention to the Breonna Taylor case. Those sexual assault accusations certainly add to the dark cloud around Hankison. (One such accusation could easily be false; but two separate ones from different people make it seem extremely likely that they're true.) Hadn't seen a picture of Hankison before; he's a handsome guy, but also seems to have aggression written right into his features. (I know, it's unfair to judge people on appearances, but sometimes character does seem to be reflected a face.)John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-22150968718664624752020-06-14T10:48:13.542-04:002020-06-14T10:48:13.542-04:00John, I'm glad you're writing again. While...John, I'm glad you're writing again. While we're on the topic of cops, did you see this? https://bit.ly/30Gxk6jAlter Egonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-11381805694163787282020-06-12T17:48:46.584-04:002020-06-12T17:48:46.584-04:00Europeasant. --
I think most people end up race re...Europeasant. --<br />I think most people end up race realists, whether they admit it or not. Even the most diehard white liberals, as I mentioned in the post, would never dream of living in a black area or sending their children to a majority black school. Which means that even while they pay lip service to all the "right" values, they know in their heart of hearts what they have to do to remain safe. <br /><br />So true about affirmative action. I know a white girl who got 800 on her math SATs and 781 on her verbal SATs. She was rejected by half the colleges she applied to. Had she been black or Hispanic with those scores, she would have had her pick. Affirmative action causes a lot of resentment, and the worst part is, for the most part it doesn't help the "downtrodden": it helps middle class blacks over middle class whites. I'd have no problem with giving a leg up to anybody (of any race) who comes from a poor background -- as you evidently did. But that's not the way it works, and we all know it. <br /><br />Couldn't agree more about Bush the Younger. <br /><br />Hate to say it, but "1984" and "Brave New World" aren't about the future; they're about the present. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-47806912525721820712020-06-12T15:35:43.698-04:002020-06-12T15:35:43.698-04:00Everyone has their own opinion on how they view th...Everyone has their own opinion on how they view the world outside their doors. I have mine and it has changed my original world view. I used to think all people were created equal until I went outside and encountered the world. My father came to this country from a eastern European nation, with three children and a wife. BTW prior to the year 1800 my descendants were Serfs. He had only a second grade formal education and spoke very little English but worked his ass off doing manual labor jobs. Yet his children (me) where upon leaving the US Army and qualifying for all jobs was told by HR at a fortune 500 company that they were only hiring minorities, well that changed my world view. Hint I no longer vote for Democrats although many Republicans are full of Shit. Hint Bush the younger among others.<br /> My children. Think about this; a new high school school opens up in my town where acceptance as I was told would be based on grades and test scores. When the school rulers found out that 75% of the incoming freshman class was going to White children then the rulers ruled that entrance for White children would be no more than 35%. Think about that. The school system was only 8% White children so I guess we can't have that. Itz at this point I became a race realist. Some would say I became a racist but still I treat all people as individuals but as groups it's a different story.<br /> SO who exactly is being discriminated against?<br /><br />Itz time to reread the novels "1984" and "Brave new World" to see what out future will be like. <br /> europeasanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08951522357562754733noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-80487688127396706862020-06-12T04:29:04.733-04:002020-06-12T04:29:04.733-04:00Martin --
That last Statista article saying black ...Martin --<br />That last Statista article saying black Americans are 2.5 times as likely to be killed by the police than white Americans is typical of the misleading mayor media talks about this. That statistic is meaningless without context, and the context is the violent crime rates. Black Americans are also 8 to 10 times as likely as whites to commit murder, rape, assault and battery, and armed robbery than white Americans. So when you look at those statistics together, it appears that if anything, the police are much harder on whites. <br /><br />A friend sent this article to me just yesterday; it analyzes the nature of interactions between blacks and the police, and brings up a number of angles the media won't:<br /><br />https://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2020/06/the-sociology-of-police-violence.htmlJohn Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-43723035095474168242020-06-11T21:02:22.620-04:002020-06-11T21:02:22.620-04:00John
Your reply makes sense. You won't see ho...John<br /><br />Your reply makes sense. You won't see how police are baiting and coming up with reasons to arrest minorities...it's an experience thing.<br /><br />And the media and law enforcement are two different entities. I agree with that some whites are being ignored by media while blacks are shown more frequently.<br /><br />I am saying that it happens a lot more than you think and it's not reported for minorities as well. You're only seeing what gets reported by the media for blacks and from your frame of reference you see that as a lot, but to black people what the media reports is not a lot (it's a drop in the bucket).<br /><br />The impression is right, minorities are being targeted by the police, not that the media is giving everyone the impression, it is true. <br /><br />I'm also familiar with the statistics that you pointed, it gets mentioned a lot, but again there is a lot more under reporting on the police side and over reporting on the media side. And those statistics are specific about being killed, not police brutality and other types of police misconduct that minorities experience. This is what the black community and others are upset about not just the killing but all the in-betweens.<br /><br />Police can distinguish by asking where are they from or what are you doing around here. Also I think you misinterpreted how I use the word bait, I simply meant whenever they apprehend someone they use aggressive tactics to encourage the person to fight back and then it's downhill from there.<br /><br />Baiting: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gxuhqk/police_officer_detains_guy_after_getting_in_his/<br /><br />https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/<br /><br />https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/07/11/arent-more-white-people-than-black-people-killed-by-police-yes-but-no/<br /><br />https://www.statista.com/chart/21872/map-of-police-violence-against-black-americans/<br /><br />No problem at all, it is a tough subject to discuss and not everyone is comfortable doing it, I appreciate your responses.Martin Blacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-3198483013161458322020-06-11T16:01:33.380-04:002020-06-11T16:01:33.380-04:00Martin --
Honestly, I just don't see the polic...Martin --<br />Honestly, I just don't see the police baiting police and coming up with reasons for arrests for minorities. Yes, blacks and Hispanics are arrested and incarcerated at higher rates, but that can only be viewed realistically in the context of crime rates. Blacks commit on average 53% of the murders that take place in this country every year, yet every year the police kill roughly twice as many whites as blacks. (Take a look at that link in the post.) The media chooses to focus on the deaths of blacks at the hands of the police and ignore the deaths of whites, so people get the impression that the police are targeting minorities; but if blacks commit over half the murders in this country (and the rate of the other major categories of violent crime are roughly the same), why is it that the police kill over twice as many whites? <br /><br />Also how can the police distinguish between poor whites and rich whites? Yes, there are some indicators. But a lot of the time they can't tell. If you're making the case that money buys justice (via expensive lawyers), I'd agree with that. But it sounds as if you're making a different point. Also, Asians actually get killed by the police at a much lower rate than whites, and that too has to do with their lower crime rate. (If the police were looking for other races to bait and set up, why would they kill Asians less often than they do whites?)<br /><br />Anyway, we see this differently, but I appreciate you being reasonable about the subject too. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-42948294489371647402020-06-11T12:22:33.661-04:002020-06-11T12:22:33.661-04:00John
I understood what they meant about how Chris...John<br /><br />I understood what they meant about how Christian Cooper's words could be interpreted. I was simply saying that a lot of people when focus on that and not the whole story which shows that she's being the aggressor, she clearly walked up to him and then backed away when she called the police.<br /><br />So I'm basically saying, whites can point of one thing that a minority does and the rest including police will swarm on that one thing while needing explicit video proof of a white person's ill intent. And even then videos don't surface until later.<br /><br />I did misinterpret "With Christian Cooper, the obvious tactic was to take advantage of his race." line in isolation, good catch :), I did point out that you are reasonable and fair-minded.<br /><br />Glad to send those videos your way. My reason of including them were to show that police brutalize all races, but this line that I mentioned in my previous comment is the reason why minorities are outraged:<br /><br />"What you see in the video above happens to minorities much more frequently. The links above are both white males being brutalized, If I wanted I could easily a dozen videos of minorities within the same week."<br /><br />Due to the color of our skin, the police seek us out, bait and/or come up with reasons for arrests. That is the part that whites are not getting...the harassment level from the police are A LOT higher. Which leads me to believe that crime statistics are 20% higher for minorities (barring the obvious and serious crimes).<br /><br />Targets:<br />- Blacks<br />- Hispanics<br />- Asians<br />- Poor whites<br />- Native Americans<br /><br />Video with whites being framed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UANRvFNc0hw<br />Video with blacks being framed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u89eBpcuYioMartin Blacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-75030970484969409152020-06-11T11:31:52.923-04:002020-06-11T11:31:52.923-04:00Martin Black --
Thank you very much re: your "...Martin Black --<br />Thank you very much re: your "reasonable and fair-minded" comment. <br /><br />You misinterpreted something I said: "With Christian Cooper, the obvious tactic was to take advantage of his race." Take another look at that paragraph and you'll see that I was referring to Amy Cooper having taken advantage of Christian Cooper's race; the sentence in isolation could be interpreted either way, but in context, I think it's pretty obvious what I meant. The whole point of the paragraph was that sociopaths take advantage of whatever they can. But I'll change it.<br /><br />I wouldn't call the commenter before you a "closeted racist." I think he or she is making a good point about how Christian Cooper's words could be interpreted in a threatening light. Yes, his tone was soft-spoken and polite throughout, as I pointed out, but another aspect of that interaction was that he was far bigger and stronger than her, and that has to be taken into account too. (From the pictures I've seen, he looks pretty jacked, whereas she looks soft, and that's on top of the normal male-female difference.) Anyway, people misinterpret stuff all the time (as you did with me, though I suppose I could have been clearer.)<br /><br />In cases like this, I try to put myself in the other person's shoes, and as I said in the post, I don't blame young black men whom the police are leery of for no other reason than that they're young black men. But I think more people should put themselves in the shoes of the police, too. They have a tough job, they have to deal with the worst people on a regular basis, and after a while, they develop a harsher outer shell, and I think I would too. (And btw, though most of the cops I've met have been polite, I've had the experience of dealing with rude ones a couple times, and it's possible that in one of those cases that may have been because I look Hispanic, so was therefore under more suspicion.)<br /><br />I'm glad you included those videos, I took a look at both, and both illustrate the point of my post. With the old guy, I think the cop was way too harsh; not sure what was going on with the other white guy, he seemed pretty drugged out. In both videos, as you point out, the people being arrested were white; had they been black, a huge furor would have resulted (at least in the second case, where the guy died) and the media would have made a huge deal about it and interpreted it as an example of racism. But really, it was just the nature of the job, and the nature of certain cops, and it had nothing to do with race, even as the media would tell us otherwise. John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-57623899351356701942020-06-11T10:01:26.351-04:002020-06-11T10:01:26.351-04:00John
I'll have to say that you are one of the...John<br /><br />I'll have to say that you are one of the most reasonable and fair minded blogger that I have come across.<br /><br />When you write about topics like these on your blog, that's when I notice the closet and sometime un-closeted racists come out. One example, is focusing on the comment that Christian Cooper that she won't like what he might do (paraphrasing here) while completely disregarding her aggressive behavior and animal abuse at the same time. I do agree that she is a sociopath, I believe she was also high up at her company. I couldn't find the original article, but she has been suspected of having Munchausen by proxy before the Central park incident (https://twitter.com/TomArnold/status/1265185811806384128).<br /><br />One part of your post that I'll disagree on is Christian Cooper using his race to his advantage and it is also understandable why you may think that. A black person or any minority using their race is a very high wall for them to scale to get the advantage. If I were to agree with you, I would say maybe just MAYBE (hehe) after his interaction with Amy Cooper...way after they parted ways, not during their interaction where if the police had shown up things could've gone sideways for him VERY FAST. So in a way you saying that he was using his race to his advantage which is exactly what Amy Cooper was doing at moment, I consider to be race-splaining ("black-splaining"). Minorities all understand how the situation could've turned out badly for him, this is nothing uncommon to us...at all.<br /><br />As for Chauvin, again people (read: whites) don't realize that this is more than George Floyd...this a a movement started by his murder at the hands (or knee) of police officers. Blacks and other minorities have been complaining and reporting police brutality for years now. This is not limited to falsified reports from other whites and people officers, which are much more common than you would think. Again it is like race-splaining, if you haven't been through you may think it's not happening, but it happens everyday and if we leave with our lives we sometimes have to just go home and suck it up (and live with the PTSD depending on the severity). Even if you are minding your business they will find a reason to harass you and bait you into mouthing off or a physical altercation, and unfortunately some do fall for it and get arrested. By the way, this is not limited to blacks, it happens to Hispanics a lot as well.<br /><br />Anyways, this is what the death of George Floyd has triggered, as well as the rest who have been killed unjustly and inhumanely.<br /><br />Here's a police brutality on an old white man 3 years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/gy9xa7/this_was_3_years_ago_in_florida/<br /><br />and here's another all white guy being punished:<br />https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6X4PUwrq8tA<br /><br />What you see in the video above happens to minorities much more frequently. The links above are both white males being brutalized, If I wanted I could easily a dozen videos of minorities within the same week.<br /><br />In summary, police brutality against minorities and people in general need stop along with whites being silent or dismissive about it. <br /><br />Martin BlackMartin Blacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-81057654249919134522020-06-09T19:54:40.489-04:002020-06-09T19:54:40.489-04:00Anon --
Good points. Yes, I suppose when someone s...Anon --<br />Good points. Yes, I suppose when someone says "I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it," that could be interpreted as a threat. But there's a counterargument to that: Christian Cooper's demeanor was calm and unthreatening. I saw that video, and while his manner was civilized, Amy Cooper's was strident and semi-combative throughout (and look at how she handled that poor dog -- she was choking him almost as badly as Chauvin was choking George Floyd, even if not for as long). I've also seen Christian Cooper in another interview, and he comes across just like what he is: a well-spoken, pretty obviously gay, well-educated ornithologist. I don't blame whites for being afraid of blacks in general; but it's fairly easy to tell the ones who are threats from the ones who are not; and he falls in the latter category. (How many soft-spoken gay black bird-lovers do you know who are also muggers?) Anyway, I still see Amy Cooper as a likely sociopath.<br /><br />I"ve seen pictures of other police officers kneeling on necks before, and true enough, it doesn't ordinarily result in. death. But Chauvin did it for eight minutes, during which Floyd is supposed to have said "I can't breathe" 12 times, and he kept kneeling on his neck for three minutes after Floyd was unconscious, which is inexcusable. Plus, in most of the pictures I've seen of cops kneeling on someone's neck, they don't seem to be putting all their weight on their knee (as best I recall), whereas Chauvin seemed to have a lot of weight on his knee. <br /><br />I just heard that counterfeit ring targeted assassination theory today; there does seem to be a lot fo coincidence around the fact that el Nuevo Rodeo has been in business for something like 26 years, which is an awfully long time fo ra nightclub to survive, and that Floyd and /chauvin had both worked there as security (Chauvin for 17 years). And it would make sense that what with the quarantine Floyd might have needed to dip into his illicit supply of money, whereas Chauvin had a regular job unaffected by the quarantine and wouldn't have needed to dip into any such supply of his. And the fact that Chauvin had a realtor's license in Florida makes no sense unless it was somehow a way to launder money. But what doesn't make sense to me is that if someone had told Chauvin to kill Floyd, that he would do it in such a public manner. (That's the argument I made to the person who told me the theory, anyway.) But, yes, there may be some interesting stuff that comes out in the trial.John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-51212098939104248412020-06-09T19:18:30.249-04:002020-06-09T19:18:30.249-04:00Here’s the dialog before the recording according t...Here’s the dialog before the recording according to the bird-watcher (not included in most of the articles):<br /><br />ME: Ma’am, dogs in the Ramble have to be on the leash at all times. The sign is right there.<br />HER: The dog runs are closed. He needs his exercise.<br />ME: All you have to do is take him to the other side of the drive, outside the Ramble, and you can let him run off leash all you want.<br />HER: It’s too dangerous.<br />ME: Look, if you’re going to do what you want, I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it.<br />HER: What’s that?<br />ME (to the dog): Come here, puppy!<br />HER: He won’t come to you.<br />ME: We’ll see about that…<br /><br />Elsewhere he explains his tactic of feeding dog treats he carries to unleashed dogs to get the owners to leash them.<br /><br />But, the words “I’m going to do what I want, but you’re not going to like it.” could fairly be interpreted as a physical threat to her or her dog. So I think there is some gray area.<br /><br />Re the police officer, we’re seeing kneeling on the back of resisting people’s necks is fairly common, uncomfortable but not impeding circulation or breathing. I surmise the man refused to get into the police car because he was having a heart attack and that made him feel claustrophobic. The cops didn’t realize they were now dealing with a medical emergency, not a “boy who cried wolf” situation.<br /><br />And hopefully the “front for counterfeiting, targeted assassination” theory gets explored (and debunked but who knows these days).<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-73634452421009927772020-06-08T05:37:02.551-04:002020-06-08T05:37:02.551-04:00Anon --
Thank you for that; what I read was tat he...Anon --<br />Thank you for that; what I read was tat he denied having an affair, but of course that doesn't mean much. <br /><br />Cluster B's are maybe, what, 15-20% of the population? Roughly 60% of married people stray at some point during their marriage. The fact that Priest had an affair doesn't by itself make him a Cluster B personality.John Craighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08729625146043379286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5794535954827182754.post-83327894461918855152020-06-08T00:36:24.963-04:002020-06-08T00:36:24.963-04:00I read Cooper and Priest had an affair, making her...I read Cooper and Priest had an affair, making her an Other Woman and him a Cheater. I think cheating is an act of narcissism and the lying that it takes to cheat is abusive towards the spouse. So, both Cooper and Priest were cluster Bs to me and my understanding of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com