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Tuesday, July 21, 2020

I was wrong about Derek Chauvin: he has Aspergers

Six weeks ago I wrote a post about how Derek Chauvin was being viewed through the wrong lens, one of racism rather than sociopathy. The main point of that post was that when black people run into a difficult white person, their default assumption is that they were treated badly because of racism, when in fact it probably had more to do with that white person's overall dysfunction.

I had watched the video showing Chauvin's utter disregard for George Floyd's life. I had read about his conduct at his second job as security for a nightclub. I had read about the 22 complaints against him. And I had seen that the junior officers he was working with that fateful day had deferred to him, almost as if they were afraid of him. From those data points I concluded that Chauvin was a sociopath.

But the New York Times recently published an article on his past, and it now seems far more likely to me that he had Aspergers Syndrome, rather than sociopathy. Given the NY Times' leftist slant, had they been able to draw a picture of Chauvin as the apotheosis of evil and racism, they would have done so. But, the story they pieced together describes a man who was socially clueless, awkward, and isolated.

Consider the following excerpts (in italics):

[D]ozens of interviews with acquaintances depict a police officer who seemed to operate at an emotional distance from those around him. Chauvin was a quiet and rigid workaholic with poor people skills and a tendency to overreact...

"Rigid" is a word often used to describe Aspies. And Aspies are known for their "poor people skills." Sociopaths, by contrast, are often charming and manipulative.

He was awkward. Other officers either didn't like him or didn't know him. He didn't go to parties and didn't seem to have many friends. Some neighbors knew so little about him that they didn't even know he was a police officer until after his arrest.

"Awkward," of course, is the most frequently used word used to describe Aspies. And the fact that he was asocial -- as opposed to antisocial -- also indicates Aspergers.

Even on the police force, Chauvin was an outsider. He often partnered with a rookie he was training, exacting in his expectations. That was fine with his veteran colleagues, who did not necessarily want to ride alongside him.

"Exacting" means strictly by the book, which is how someone with Aspergers would operate. The veteran colleagues, who presumably knew what he was like, avoided him, as people generally end up doing with Aspies.

Derek did not play sports in school -- at least, not that anyone remembers. He did not have a yearbook photo for his junior or senior years. One classmate from Park High School in Cottage Grove, another Twin Cities suburb, remembered him as the student in ROTC who never talked but always held the flag. Another classmate, Scott Swanson, said Derek flew under the radar.

Never talked? Flew under the radar? Sociopaths tend to be both loquacious and memorable. In fact, they'll often do anything to make their presence felt.

After joining the military police, [Chauvin] was deployed to a U.S. Army base in Germany, here he studied for the Minnesota police exam in his spare time. He did not socialize much or drink alcohol...When Chauvin reported for training after the police academy, he showed up in a new white Crown Victoria outfitted to resemble a police car....Leaving work, most officers dressed casually. But Chauvin, who stood ramrod straight like he was in the military, left in full uniform, his pants pulled higher than most people would wear them, his boots polished.

Being obsessed with the trappings of his job, to the point of looking foolish -- and being oblivious about the impression he's making -- sounds like Aspergers as well.

In a group setting he would never connect and stand there like a small child. I was put off by his lack of communication skills...You never felt like he was present.

Again, typical of an Aspie. A sociopath is usually very present, and in a destructive way.

The article continues in this vein. He was not smart financially. He was awkward at the beauty pageant where his wife competed for the title of Mrs. Minnesota. And he and his wife often went separate ways.

The worst the Times could come up with as far as Chauvin's meanness was the incident they led off with, which occurred when the police observed some teenagers shooting their nerf gun out a car window:

[Chauvin] made a lasting impression. In fact, Bergh and another passenger said they would never forget him, nor what he said as he gave them back their guns. "Most of you will be 18 before the end of the year," before letting them go. "That means you'll be old enough for big boy jail."

That hardly presents the picture of unbridled viciousness and evil the New York Times would have preferred to draw.

I had pointed out in that previous post that police departments now guard against sociopaths by using the MMPI. Given that a policeman's job consists of interacting with the public, perhaps departments should guard against Aspies as well.

As far as the behaviors which initially made me think he was a sociopath, not thinking through the potential consequences of kneeling on an arrestee's neck can be a function of an Aspergerian lack of awareness -- and inability to identify with anyone else -- as well as callousness. Being overeager to use pepper spray at that nightclub could just reflect a rigid "by the book" approach to his job. And getting numerous complaints in the course of his duty as a police officer could well just reflect the fact that Aspies are often infuriating to deal with.

(I had mentioned "stupidity" as one of the lenses that Chauvin should have been viewed through; but I see now that it's that peculiar form of stupidity associated with Aspergers, not just a low IQ.)

In any case, I was wrong to label Chauvin a sociopath.

The main point of that previous post still holds true though: it would help race relations immeasurably if blacks realized that whites can be difficult to deal with for a whole host of reasons other than racism.

48 comments:

Anonymous said...

I've just read your first post on Chauvin. The wimpy arms are another sign of Aspergers. I've never seen any muscular Aspies. I'm sorry to have to put it like this, but the male Aspies I've met were all either ugly or unfashionably dressed (the women Aspies seemed normal). Sociopaths tend to put a lot of effort into their appearance.

- Gethin

John Craig said...

Gethin --
Interesting observation, that's a correlation I never saw. Hmm....I'm trying to think of the male Aspies I've known, and I have to admit, I can't think of any who were muscular. I have known at least three female Aspies who were gorgeous.

Agree, sociopaths put a lot of effort into their appearance. in my experience, they are far more likely to get plastic surgery, and the males are far more likely to go on steroids.

Alter Ego said...

This could be something for your next sociopath alert: https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/sports/ncaaw/big12/2020/08/05/marlene-stollings-texas-tech-program-culture-abuse-players-say/5553370002/

John Craig said...

Alter Ego --
Sorry about this late response, we're in the middle of a power outage where I live, so I don't have internet access unless I go to the local Y.

Yes, that's a great portrait of a sociopath. I've always thought that big time coaching is rife with sociopaths, who are particularly effective at shaming and manipulation.

Funny to look at the pictures of the coaches themselves and see that for all their emphasis on conditioning, they -- especially the head coach -- are slugs themselves.

Martin Black said...

John,

"The main point of that previous post still holds true though: it would help race relations immeasurably if blacks realized that whites can be difficult to deal with for a whole host of reasons other than racism."

Your last paragraph seems to be pointing the finger at blacks and their realization about other reasons. Basically another blame it on black people.

(Rhetorical question) What would be a reason for blacks assuming racism? Something to do with a long history of .

(Rhetorical question) Wouldn't it make sense for racism to cross our minds?

(Rhetorical question) Is there something immeasurably helpful that whites could do themselves to help race relations with blacks?

You studied psychology right?
What are you thoughts about white America scapegoating blacks?
Black people being the shadow aspect of whites?


Hopefully he is brought to justice, aspie, sociopath or any other labels. Just go by his actions and the evidence available and bring him to justice.

John Craig said...

Martin --
I'd say this post was in fact more insulting to whites than blacks. What if I did an analysis of a black who committed violence against a white, and first analyzed the black as a sociopath, then later corrected myself and said he was an Aspie, and gave all the reasons why, his awkwardness and lack of popularity with others, and so on. And then I said, white people shouldn't assume that blacks act badly towards them because they're white and they (blacks) see them as potential marks. There's a whole host of other reasons why blacks are difficult to deal with.

Would you not take offense at that?

I was actually going to write another post about all the other reasons why white people are difficult to deal with, basically a list of the different mental illnesses and syndromes and neuroses, but never got around to it. (Haven't felt inclined to blog recently.)

Yes, of course, people should be judged by their actions.

im not even sure what's meant by those concepts. Blacks are the shadow aspect of whites? As far as scapegoating blacks, for what? As I said, I believe people should be judged by their (individual) actions (not vague concepts).

Martin Black said...

Hey John,

I'm not following what you're saying when you flipped the roles there, can you explain what the insult (or offense) is?

Also there's a reason why I asked if you studied psychology before asking about scapegoating and shadow aspects...it is pretty interesting stuff when you look at the race relations in America through that lens. Even looking at the comments on your blog over time shines a lot of light on it (easier for me to see as an outsider).

If you consider those vague concepts here are a few links that touch on scapegoating w/ race and shadow aspect:

(Very good one): https://msp.edu/racial-scapegoating-american-past-time/

(very good one): https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-me-in-we/201708/projection-in-race-relations

(About the shadow also): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_(psychology)

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmmQTSNq5IQ

As for what you said here: "The main point of that previous post still holds true though: it would help race relations immeasurably if blacks realized that whites can be difficult to deal with for a whole host of reasons other than racism."

How does it help immeasurably if a lot of hate, projection, shame and ill-will are directed at black people? And this is why I am pointing out the scapegoating dynamics at play here (blame it on black).

P.S. If you found my previous comment triggering at all, then that's a part of your shadow (a collective shadow).

John Craig said...

Martin --
That's an awful lot of homework you're assigning. I just skimmed the first three articles you linked. Basically, what they're all saying is that typical white attitudes -- or opinions of -- blacks are a function of various white mental illnesses. Both scapegoating and shadow aspect sound like another way of taking about projection: attributing negative feelings we have about ourselves onto others. Ipso facto, if whites have a negative opinion of blacks in any way, it must be a manifestation their own mental illnesses and weaknesses.

I see it differently. If a white person is aware of statistics, that doesn't mean he's mentally ill. It just means that he's aware of the statistics. For instance, year in and year out 53% of homicides in this country are committed by blacks. And given that blacks are 13% of the population, that means that as a race, they're roughly 8 times more likely to commit homicide than the other races are, on average. That's just a fact, not a projection or a scapegoating (which implies falsely placing blame). And the statistics for the other three major categories of violent crime (rape, armed robbery, and assault and battery) are roughly similar. How is that projection, or scapegoating? those are just facts.

In any case, all of the erroneous thinking can be avoided if we just judge individuals as individuals -- as you suggested we do with Derek Chauvin. No individual should be held accountable for the sins of his cousins. (Or his ancestors.) But being aware of statistics per se doesn't imply wrongly blaming individuals.

The way it would help immeasurably if blacks realized that whites can be difficult for all sorts of reasons is that they assume whenever they meet up with an unpleasant white person, that the unpleasantness is something that those particular white people direct toward everyone they deal with, not just black people. Whites -- and other races -- can be bipolar, schizophrenic, psychotic, sociopathic, have borderline personality syndrome, narcissistic personalities, histrionic, paranoid, agoraphobic, any number of syndromes and illnesses. What I'm saying is that those white people will often be difficult for everyone to deal with, not just black people. But when black people deal with whites with those various conditions, their natural assumption tends to be that that particular white was acting that particular way to them because they're black. But that's just (usually) not true; that particular white will be difficult for everyone to deal with.

As far as Derek Chauvin, I suspect that if I wrongly accused a black cop of being sociopathic, and subsequently underlined all the things wrong with him that indicated Aspergers, I'd be accused of racism.

Martin Black said...

John I saw your statistics response coming from a mile away. My girlfriend always points out that it is the go to for whites.

The homework is part of the work whites would need to do to cover all angles. Do keep an open and read the articles, although you may find yourself getting triggered or defensive or judgmental (that's a sign that it is a part of your shadow by the way).

You mention vague concepts, I provide links to show that they are not just vague concepts and are used within psychology and then you say it's a lot of homework lol.

The statistics are reflecting symptoms of deeper issues. What are the root causes of those statistics?

Year in year out since when? The 70s? 80s? since black people were trafficked to America?

Did black people in America start off this way? This way meaning broken homes, violence/crime, poverty etc.

All those issues that the statistics point out aren't the natural behaviors of black people. But rather circumstances that lead to that. So if we keep digging further we will discover that these are just SYMPTOMS that can be produced by many factors such as abuse/trauma (and we can list more than a few of those starting from the 1900s to now).

As for you comment here: "The way it would help immeasurably if blacks realized that whites can be difficult for all sorts of reasons is that they assume whenever they meet up with an unpleasant white person, that the unpleasantness is something that those particular white people direct toward everyone they deal with, not just black people."

Sounds like projection to me, how do you know it would help? Wouldn't it help if whites stopped assuming the worst of black people? But they won't because of the statistics year in year out right? It's like you making assumptions for women and the dangers and expectations that have to deal with in society everyday.

Have you ever asked a black person what their thoughts were on that? If you looking into narcissistic families and scapegoating dynamics you will see that this black/white issues in a America is just a larger scale of the same thing.

Anonymous said...

You seem to have very strong opinions on Asperger's. While it's true that Aspies do struggle a lot with social skills, there are in fact quite a few Aspies who do very well socially and put a lot of effort into bettering themselves. So instead of finding flaws with Aspies, maybe you better take a look in the mirror because you might be surprised at what you have not noticed for a large number of years.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Are you suggesting Derek Chauvin does not have Aspergers?

Anonymous said...

John Craig, you sound like a total asshole.

John Craig said...

And you sound very intelligent.

Anonymous said...

I have just watched the sentencing, I could see immediately from his body language that he has aspergers. You can see that he is sorry but doesn't know how to express that emotion. You could see from the way he is so accepting of his fate and the way he stands up to be cuffed and led away, his eye movements as the verdict is read. He has aspergers syndome. This has been made into a race issue and I can understand the devastation of the family and heart goes out to them as I felt devastated seeing the video, it was heartbreaking. I agree that he has aspergers and didn't realise the magnitude of his actions, you can see he is sorry but cannot express, also the way he writes continuously during the trial.

Anonymous said...

I then googled to see if I could find anything online referring to Derek and aspergers and your blog was the only article I could find

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thanks for coming here, and thanks for that confirmation. My guess is that Chauvin was never officially diagnosed, and went through life the way a lot of people with Aspergers do, sort of going through the motions when it came to social interactions and never understanding why his coworkers tended to avoid him. But he wasn't a bully, he was just sort of clueless and also probably afraid of black people, especially a big, strong guy like George Floyd. And it was mostly cluelessness, along with a little fear, rather than meanness, that caused him to act as he did on that fateful day.

It sounds as if you've had some personal contact with people with Aspergers yourself.

Anonymous said...

Ah, yes I'm grateful I found your blog, yes my partner has aspergers (he hasn't been officially diagnosed) but I had to do a lot of learning and research over eight years to understand him, its been a very difficult road but I knew he was a good person with a good heart and after many many years I realised through my own learning. I cried a lot watching the 9 minute video during the trial but from seeing Derek behaviours both today and during this week particularly it became more and more apparent that he has aspergers. Everything you have just said, about him not being a bully and clueless along with a little fear, rather than meanness, you can see it in the way he accepts his fate so quietly and in his behaviour in court, especially today.
I actually feel quite terrible because this was all viewed through the lens of racial injustice by the entire world, but you can see he genuinely didn't realise, even the president and vice president (both of whom i respect) and everyone is talking about racial justice in relation to his conviction, but it has just really hit home to me today how little the world understands or recognises conditions such as aspergers. He has been made the face of racial justice but the tragedy in this is double and so much deeper

John Craig said...

Anon --
You sound like an understanding and patient person. One certainly needs a lot of patience to deal with a partner with Aspergers.

You're right about how little the world recognizes Aspergers. Many of them are decent people, just clueless, but I've noticed that a high percentage of the mass shooters we've seen have Aspergers as well. And their actions can't be entirely attributed to their syndrome.

Anonymous said...

Ah thank you, yes we separated many times over the years, but I realised many years later through my own learning and it has taken a lot of patience and some sacrifices too as he struggles to understand me emotionally which can be difficult for me. But they are very loyal, honest and decent people but incredibly clueless (especially of emotions as you have said and responding to situations) but can be harmless. I just wish that more people would be able to see what we can see, I'm glad I found your blog as coming to this realisation today I was able to read through your posts.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Agree, a lot of Aspies can be honest and loyal and decent, but I find them extremely annoying at times as well. (But I'm less patient than you.) And their inability to put themselves in others' shoes can result in a certain hypocrisy at times which is easy to mistake for narcissistic personality disorder. Plus, their rigidity often means that they have to get their way, and that too can be trying.

Just thought of another example of Chauvin's Aspergers: when he was kneeling on Floyd's neck, he was looking around at the same time, and he must have seen various people filming him, and must have heard the people who were yelling at him to get off Floyd's neck. Most people would be savvy enough to know that they should back off at that point, if only for appearances' sake. But Chauvin just kept kneeling on his neck, unaware of the potential consequences, for both Floyd and himself. In a roundabout way, that's proof of, if not his innocence, at least his lack of bad intent. He was simply clueless about how bad he looked, and the impression he was creating, and the potential racial ramifications of him being filmed doing what he was doing.

Anonymous said...

Also at some points this week I noticed that Eric Nelson had to rephrase and simplify when explaining procedures to Derek Chauvin (as he appeared to be looking blankly at moments and not being able to comprehend what was being said). Only a few times, but just another small observation

Hilary said...

Just read this article after watching Chavin reaction to his sentence and he does seem to me to have Aspergers. I am a teacher and have seen many who do. If this is the case I feel that he should never have been allowed to go into policing and probably lacks a lifelong and formal diagnosis of his disability.

John Craig said...

Hilary --
Yes, I said the same in my comment of 6:59PM above, that he was likely never officially diagnosed. And I couldn't agree more, people with Aspergers should never go into policing.

GT said...

I came here to say what you just stated - I think a sociopath would be able to "read the room" and make adjustments to make themselves look better in the public eye. A true sociopath would only displayed that level non empathic personality if no one was watching


"Just thought of another example of Chauvin's Aspergers: when he was kneeling on Floyd's neck, he was looking around at the same time, and he must have seen various people filming him, and must have heard the people who were yelling at him to get off Floyd's neck. Most people would be savvy enough to know that they should back off at that point, if only for appearances' sake. But Chauvin just kept kneeling on his neck, unaware of the potential consequences, for both Floyd and himself. In a roundabout way, that's proof of, if not his innocence, at least his lack of bad intent. He was simply clueless about how bad he looked, and the impression he was creating, and the potential racial ramifications of him being filmed doing what he was doing."

Anonymous said...

It does look more and more likely that he does have some degree of Asperger's. Unfortunately I think this would be quite a controversial theory and unlikely to gain traction, with many people thinking its just a way to soften his crime and paint him in a better light (like the way some people are critical when a mass shooter is 'explained away' as being mentally ill, even though many are). The world saw a white man kneel on a black man's neck and instantly viewed it as a racial issue, and - who knows - maybe Chauvin does have some degree of racial prejudice. But there's a good chance he also has Asperger's, and as others have said, it is a poor career choice for someone with such a diagnosis. Even in the footage from the day of George Floyd's death you can see him looking blankly as the crowd tell him to stop, almost as if he doesn't understand the magnitude of what he is doing.

John Craig said...

GT --
Thank you, coincidentally I had originally written that paragraph using the word "sociopath," but then changed it to "most people" because in fact it IS most people, not just sociopaths, who would have pulled back at that point. But you're exactly right, with sociopaths it would be even truer.

John Craig said...

Anon --
You're exactly right. There have to be people besides us who see that he has Aspergers. But people with Aspergers are generally regarded in the current climate more as victims rather than victimizers, and thus receive favored treatment by the media. And it's true, on a generalized basis, they ARE victims more often than not, and from an early age: they are taunted, shunned, and made fun of by their schoolmates and even by their coworkers later on. So, Chauvin's Aspergers syndrome will likely not be revealed. Likewise, when a mass shooter has Aspergers, that is soft pedaled as well. There are all sorts of support and advocacy groups for people with Aspergers, and they would undoubtedly spring into action, too, if Chauvin's syndrome were to get too much publicity. Also, we have to take into account that the white-on-black aspect of the homicide fits the media's preferred narrative, so of course they're gong to emphasize that aspect.

But, Chauvin can't be understood until you take his Aspergers into account; it's a pity that the general public will never be enlightened about that.

Anonymous said...

I completely agree with you, that Chauvin's actions cannot be understood unless you take his aspergers into account, and accounts from him growing up and finding it difficult to socialise at school, the fact that it was noted that he was always incredibly punctual and a workaholic, and that his uniform and shoes were always noticeably emaculate, that he was quiet and his wife had previously described him as being a big softie.
I know this must be so difficult to comprehend after the way it has engulfed the world through perspective of race, I felt the same way initially and even up until the trial began the more I observed his behaviour the clearer it became that he has undiagnosed aspergers. The saddest thing alongside George Floyds loss of life which is heartbreaking is that he Chauvin is absolutely hated by the whole world, like a victory in race, but this is so much deeper. People with aspergers see, hear and experience the world differently to us, and your right that the world will never know

Anonymous said...

I find this post and the following comments to br intriguing. Though, to be honest, i am still not 100% sold. I am open to the argument though.

I would like u to take the convo further if possible and I would like to ask two questions:

1. If Derek Chauvin does eventually get diagnosed as Aspegers or mild autism spectrum or similar, how should the judge use that at Sentencing? Is it a not guilty be reason of mental issue? Does it lower his years in prison? Does it alter the location where he should serve? What do u think is "fair" here?

2. Let's say you are a newly promoted sergeant. Sgt. Craig of a local police force. You notice one of your new charges is a ten year vet named Derek Chauvin and he exhibits signs of aspergers. What do u then do with this person? He has four medals of commendation/valor. He seems to do a good job even if his colleagues find him "weird." How do u proceed? I know in an above post u said he shouldn't be in law enforcement. Do u fire him? Or maybe forcefully transfer him to a desk job? Or maybe even a different route and send him to a SWAT team or a bomb squad with less interaction with random public. What is the solution here? He has served well. He seemingly loves being a cop. Sure. Take him off the streets even for his own protection and for the good of civilians. But is there another place for him in the dept?. Evidence collection teams?

Thanks. --V

John Craig said...

V --
You bring up some interesting questions. My answer to your first question is, I'm not sure. I wrote a post once on whether someone's IQ should be taken into account when it comes to sentencing . (I just looked for it and can't find it.) So far in this country the only times when that's happened has been when a judge has taken the death penalty off the table because some murderer has been deemed retarded, i.e., their IQ was measured at less than 70, and therefore they're not entirely responsible for their actions. But one could make the case that, similarly, someone with an IQ of 135 is more aware of the ramifications of his crime than, say, someone with an IQ of 85. Does that mean the person with the higher IQ should be sentenced more harshly? (As I recall, I didn't come to a definite conclusion, but just raised the question.) Anyway, people with Aspergers, many of whom function fairly well, could be considered the equivalent of low-IQ individuals, at least when it comes to their "social IQ." So, should Chauvin be shown some leniency on that score? My inclination would be to say no, since that would lead us down a slippery slope where in every imaginable case, the defense lawyers would plead for leniency for all sorts of specious reasons, even semi-fictional dysfunctional family backgrounds. (Which, in fact, a lot of criminals have.) But, I'd agree that a decent case can be made for "yes."

The only thing I feel really strongly about is that IF Chauvin is shown some sort of leniency on those grounds, then those are also grounds for not hiring people with Aspergers for police jobs. (A similar situation arose in Bradley Manning's trial for treason: his defense lawyer pleaded extenuating circumstances because Manning felt out of place in the hyper-macho environment of the military. I've always been in favor of allowing gays in the military, since before the days of don't-ask-don't-tell; but I made the case there that IF in fact that were a legitimate defense, then that would mean that homosexuals maybe shouldn't be allowed in the military.)

As to your second question, my answer is still, I don't know. I suppose if I were actually faced with the exact situation you described, I wouldn't do anything, since he'd made it through ten years already with no problems, and even had those four medals of recommendation/valor. But, in all honesty, if I were faced with a choice between hiring two candidates of otherwise equal abilities, and one of them appeared to have Aspergers, I'd hire the other guy.

Of course, if anyone were ever to publicly declare that he would avoid hiring people with Aspergers if at all possible, he'd be hit with all sorts of lawsuits accusing him of "discrimination." I touched on that in this post about what would happen if they did try to keep guns from the "mentally ill," as Obama suggested many times:

https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2018/02/what-if-they-did-try-to-keep-mentally.html

These days everything tends to be viewed as a matter of discrimination. In the Chauvin case, the media prefers to view it as a purely racial incident, so I suspect that Chauvin's Aspergerian tendencies will remain buried. But that's unfortunate, because the excellent questions you bring up ought to be discussed.

Sorry for these wishy washy answers, but there's really no clear answer to either question.

Anonymous said...

After watching the trial I too cans to think he has Aspergers. I dated someone with it for 2 years, and saw many similarities in Chauvin. You guys already mentioned a lot of the sane things I noticed, but I will add that when he took his mask off, he folded it and placed it on the table, patting it down a couple times. His gestures and movements also said Aspergers to me. I’m glad I found this article...it was the only one that came up in my search for his name with Aspergers. I’m totally convinced he has it. You are right though, no one has the appetite for anything other that racism at this point given the monstrosity’s we as a nation have committed against black people throughout history.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Interesting -- I didn't watch the trial, but the way you describe Chauvin folding and patting his mask is consistent with OCD, which is co-morbid with Aspergers.

Unknown said...

Hi I read all of the comments, I’m a therapist, I watched the entire trial and sentencing. I agree that he seams to have Aspergers.
And yet my thoughts go to racism and how that can interact with this diagnosis.
If people who are neuro typical make the mistake of racial profiling, how often to folks with Aspergers make the same Socail/ racial error?

John Craig said...

Unknown --
I don't think the Derek Chauvin/George Floyd case was one of racial profiling. It was a pretty straightforward case of Floyd trying to pass off a counterfeit $20 bill and acting weird in the store (if you've seen the video of him dancing in front of the cash register, you'll know what I'm talking about) and the cops being called. When they arrested him, Floyd started saying that he couldn't breathe before he was down on the ground, and he would never have been there if he hadn't resisted when they originally tried to put him in the cop car. After that, Chauvin ended up kneeling on his neck too long, and Floyd died, though it's not clear to me that that was the cause of death: he had enough fentanyl and meth in his system to kill him, and evidently this type of restraint (which I'm against, especially in the case of someone already handcuffed) has been used many times before, almost never to lethal effect. The case has been seen almost exclusively through a racial lens since it happened, and it's also obviously become extremely politicized.

The question is, would the cops (one of whom was black) have acted any different had it been a 6'6" muscular white guy who'd acted that way? We'll never know for sure, but one fact that is almost never pointed out is that year in and year out, roughly twice as many whites as blacks are killed by the police. And evidently this year, it's even more skewed: as of two months ago, 200 people had been killed by the police in 2021, and 32 of them were black. Even if 40 or 50 of the people killed were Hispanic, that means well over 100 whites have been killed by the police. But have we heard any of their names? No, because the media choose not to publicize those cases. In the meantime, the media has made sure that George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, ?Daunte Wright, etc, have become household names, and give the impression that cops are killing blacks whenever they get the opportunity. That's just not the case.

Now, the image of a white cop kneeling on the neck of a handcuffed black suspect is a terrible one, and it inflamed a lot of passions when it was made public; even I got angry when I first watched it, and I'm generally sympathetic to the cops. But I still don't see this as a case of racial profiling. The cops weren't looking for a black guy to roust; I suspect they would have acted the same with a muscular 6'6" white guy who acted as Floyd did; the difference is, if that had been the case, we would never have heard of it. The cops were merely responding to a call from a store owner, who was responding to a counterfeit bill. That the whole thing blew up into the conflagration it did, dividing the nation even further, was a tragedy.

Anonymous said...

You can see so clearly today that he is sincerely sorry to the family during sentencing, when he spoke. In a world that takes so much pride in celebrating mental health awareness days, people who campaigning relentlessly for mental health awareness, and yet are completely blind to the one time where it mattered the most.

He has made history as not only being the first officer to receive a landmark lengthy sentence, but also being the first officer who didn't intentionally set out to hurt someone, not through cruelty and is truly sorry for what has happened.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I'm assuming you're the same therapist who wrote the comment of 4:36PM. I've found that Aspergers is often the condition that dare not speak its name. I've met a fair number of people with Aspergers, yet not one of them has ever admitted to having it (I'm sure most went undiagnosed, especially the older ones). And while Asperger support groups are happy to claim Albert Einstein and Nikola Tesla and Mark Twain and many other people of great accomplishment, many of whom probably didn't have the condition, you never hear the condition associated with, say, the many mass shooters who seem to have had the condition. Likewise, these support groups will doubtless keep Chauvin at arm's length. But Chauvin was unpopular with his fellow cops, and had the lack of social awareness that characterizes people with the syndrome, and it's questionable as to whether he should have been a cop in the first place, for that reason. But once this subject is raised, once it's pointed out how people with Aspergers have a hard time dealing with the public and therefore maybe shouldn't be in positions which require contact with the public, the Aspergers support groups would raise all sorts of hell. I wrote about the problems of keeping guns from the "mentally ill" earlier, in this post:

https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2016/06/who-exactly-are-mentally-ill-whom-obama.html

And I wrote about the problem specifically of people with Aspergers who are mass shooters in this post:

https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2018/02/what-if-they-did-try-to-keep-mentally.html

Anonymous said...


Have you seen the article on the official Autistic Self Advocacy Network?

Even the autistic charities themselves have not only completely failed to recognise his condition, but have actually gone as far as posting about this case in support of his conviction in relation to racism.

If the very mental health charities themselves have failed to be neutral and instead have aligned themselves with the way of thinking, what hope is there for the rest of the world?

So many charities, organisations and people of influence campaign relentlessly for autism and aspergers awareness, and wear their campaigning as a badge of honour.

But in the next breath, they not only fail to remain neutral and diplomatic, but completely condemn those that they are campaigning so tirelessly to represent.

This case should of have been a landmark case to truly show the world the impact of autism on those who suffer from it.


https://autisticadvocacy.org/2021/04/asan-statement-on-the-conviction-of-derek-chauvin/

Anonymous said...

The entire world needs to read your blog post. This is the only article online and one of the most important articles I have ever been fortunate enough to find.

John Craig said...

Anonymous --
Is this the same person who sent al four comments? I'm going to assume it is, but if you're going to make several comments, it would be easier for me if you used some sort of name (doesn't have to be your real name, obviously) just so I know I'm talking to one person.

No, I hadn't seen that statement. It sure sounds like plain old-fashioned virtue signaling to me. Are people with Aspergers more likely to be on the receiving end of rough treatment by police? Probably, since they're more likely to appear to be resisting arrest and also are generally more frustrating to deal with. But I can't help but wonder what ASAN would have to say if someone suggested to them that Chauvin himself has Aspergers, and that's why he acted the way he did.

To me, the most interesting question that comes out of this is, did Chauvin deserve a more lenient sentence because his actions were largely the result of his syndrome, which he can't help? (Courts have rescinded the death sentence before in cases where the defendant was shown to be functionally retarded.) Not sure of the answer, but IF Chauvin did deserve to be shown some lenience on account of his disability, then it's hard to avoid the conclusion that people with Aspergers should not be allowed to be cops, period. At least, not street cops. And that police departments are justified in screening against people with Aspergers for certain jobs (just as they screen against sociopaths now). And really, there's a long list of other jobs which require dealing with the public where they're going to be pretty lousy as well, though those will mostly not have life and death consequences.

John Craig said...

Anonymous of 10:39PM:

Thank you very much. (My feeling is that the entire world needs to read a lot of my blogposts; but the world doesn't seem to agree.)

The intersection of public events and psychology is always fascinating to me, and knowing what the syndrome of the public figure in question is will usually go a long way toward explaining their behavior. (For instance, once you realize that Bill Clinton is a sociopath, all of his behavior just seems to fall into place.)

Anonymous said...

From a first-time commenter: When I saw news film of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck, I immediately suspected it…and started googling "Chauvin has Aspergers". Yours was the only info I found. My sweet husband of 6 years is 70 and has Aspergers and doesn't know it. I've also supervised an Aspergers subordinate, and have lived next door to another for 40 years. All are at different places on the spectrum, but they share a complete lack of awareness of how their behavior affects and/or appears to other people. They also lack ill intent. You can't get angry with people who are so kind and you certainly don't want to be the one to tell them they have Aspergers. I convinced my husband to visit a psychiatrist and even wrote a detailed letter for him to take with him to the 3 visits. The Dr. simply counseled him on "marital issues." The whole subject entails very frustrating grey areas. Bottom line, I agree Chauvin has Aspergers. Probably the only "solution" would be to include screening for Aspergers in childhood health examinations. It would help everyone involved in these people's lives, to have the diagnosis early on.

John Craig said...

First-time commenter --
You obviously know what you're talking about. Had Chauvin been a truly bad guy -- a sociopath -- he would have been too slick to allow himself to be filmed doing something which looked so bad. (Sociopaths, both low and high, tend to be two different people when the cameras are rolling and not.)

You also raise an interesting point about psychiatrists: so many of them have learned about various subjects from a book, and lack the kind of real life experience which leads to having a real feel for certain personality types, and thus don't recognize them even when they meet them. (Don't get me started on the subject of how naive most of them are on the subject of sociopaths, especially successful ones.)

Agree that people with Aspergers generally lack ill intent in most situations, even when they're doing things that would signal ill intent in others. But they're not angels. Bear in mind that many of the mass shooters of recent years have been somewhere on the spectrum and are basically having autistic meltdowns with a gun. (I've gotten the impression that the "incel" crowd is largely autistic.)

Anyway, thank you for your comment. Agree that early screenings are a good idea, although those would run into strong resistance from advocates for people with Aspergers. They would consider it "discrimination," etc. And they would object to any outcome which excluded people with Aspergers from any activity. But police work is certainly a good fit for someone with Aspergers Syndrome.

Steven said...

The problem was not that Derek Chauvin should not be a police officer. The problem was he was the police officer in charge.

John Craig said...

Steven --
Good point, though I still feel someone with Aspergers shouldn't be on the street as a patrol officer.

Anonymous said...

So I’m a liberal and have no reason to want to make excuses for what seems to have become a fighting subject between liberals and republicans, but seeing him on trial, that look in his eyes, was the look of an aspi, my husband is an aspi and I recognised the same look, of being completely unaware, and confused but not quite able to show it. he is just confused and not much else. And the video of him on his back, it looks like it’s just not registering, my husband is the same, it just doesn’t register if he’s trying to feed my daughter her medicine or put a jacket on her, it just doesn’t register that he’s holding her too tight or if she is in pain or danger. I just wish there was more awareness, for people’s safety and for fairness to people on the spectrum. Of course this is such a huge international story and movement that no one would want to defend or bring a case at the risk of being labels racist.

John Craig said...

Anonymous Liberal --
You're exactly right. It's too much of a third rail of a subject for any sort of rational, honest discussion at this point. George Floyd has been anointed as a saint, and Derek Chauvin is viewed as the devil, and any deviation from that line means you'll be accused of being a Nazi. But if you look at Chauvin's background and overall behavior, it's obvious that he was more unaware than evil. Your concern seems to be primarily fairness for Aspies, but be aware that this whole situation also raises the question of whether Aspies should be allowed to be street cops in the first place. If this kind of lack of awareness can result in death, maybe they shouldn't be. Any suggestion along those lines would raise the ire of Aspergers support groups; but the question has to be asked.

Anonymous said...

What do you mean by "that peculiar form of stupidity associated with Aspergers"? Can you please give examples?

John Craig said...

Anon --
The article is full of examples of the types of social cluelessness and lack of ability to relate to others that people with Aspergers show. The answer to your question is, all of the above.

If you want more examples of Aspergerian behaviour, look here:

https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2011/08/aspergers-syndrome.html