I had a somewhat heated exchange last Wednesday and Thursday with a commenter who said that he/she is a "friend" of Frederick Baer, a Death Row inmate I wrote about in Prison Pen Pals VII, and that I was misjudging Baer.
Take a look at Baer's advertisement, then the description of his crime and my analysis of his ad. (They are at the beginning of the post.) Then take a look at the comments below the post.
The commenter, who claims to be a therapist, said that Baer is an empathetic, honest, remorseful guy. Then the commenter recited a bunch of statistics about crystal meth to show how destructive it is, as if Baer had no choice but to slash the throat of that four-year-old girl and her mother because he was on the drug.
If the commenter is not lying about being a therapist, this is proof of just how convincing sociopaths can be (and of how naive some professionals can be). It's all too easy to imagine Baer getting a certain gleeful satisfaction from fooling the therapist by pretending to be a decent guy. In fact, Baer boasted about gaming his first prison doctor, as I described in the post.
Of course, for all I know, this anonymous commenter is Baer's sister, not his therapist. (Baer himself wouldn't have access to a computer from prison.)
In any case, read the exchange and see whom you agree with.
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I personally do not want to associate with any sociopaths, period. The man is a murderer, killing two people (a mother and her child). A therapist that I met with for a short time told me that sociopaths "don't think the way that we do," meaning that sociopaths are screwed up in how they think. I've gotten to know one sociopath very well, seeing and experiencing all of his negative qualities. He told me more than once, "I tell you what you want to hear," the truth not being in the ballpark. Sociopaths are master manipulators, using people to get what they want. Believe me, these are not people that you want to have as friends (and/or prison pen pals). Practically everything that comes out of a sociopath's mouth is a lie, so it's a waste of our time to pay attention to anything that a sociopath might try to tell us. Wise people have nothing to do with such people (they have reprobate minds, seared consciences, etc.) - they cannot be fixed. This murderer is where he belongs - in prison. I feel sorry for (have empathy for) his victims, not him.
-birdie
Birdie --
Well put. there's just nothing to be gained from an association with a sociopath. As far as I'm concerned, they should all be quarantined, put on an island where they would only have each other to associate with. That would be poetic justice.
And yes, they don't think like us at all. Funny, the sociopathic woman I knew at age 25 who enlightened me as to their ways used to also say, "I"m just telling you what you want to hear," as if that excused all her lies.
I think that the poster was concerned about the drugs (meth) that the criminal used, causing his brain to become swiss cheese, thus, he couldn't help himself (in the poster's opinion) - he murdered the woman and her child due to having a screwed up brain. If the man chose to take drugs day in and day out, then he will reap the consequences of his actions (his brain will become even more messed up) - however, that does not excuse what he did, killing two people, a mother and her child. The man needs to be locked up, society protected from him. He's proven to us what he's capable of - murder.
-birdie
Birdie --
You're exactly right; the crystal meth didn't just sneak up on him and put itself into his body, like a cancer: he chose to take it.
But even his addiction is a poor excuse: plenty of meth users manage not to slash the throats of a woman and her daughter, after trying to rape the woman.
I realize that the criminal's upbringing wasn't ideal - he had a an alcoholic mother (who CHOSE to abuse alcohol daily), thus, not attending to the normal needs of her child (he couldn't possibly develop normally). Her son paid the price for his mother's non-maternal ways - he turned into a sociopath. His mother destroyed another human being, in my opinion. Society has also paid a price because of her crappy parenting - two normal people are dead because of her son.
-birdie
Birdie --
Exactly. One theme I've noticed among sociopaths is that a high number of them had alcoholic mothers, who effectively loved their booze more than their offspring. A strikingly high number.
first at all... no, I'm not Baer's sister. Twice, I do not want to apologize what he did but rather explaining the reason why he did what he did. And third, I do know the police reports aswell as his case and even more. Baer never played games with me. But I could tell people like you whatever I want to, even prove you wrong and you still would judge Baer as what you want to see in him, just because you once had an experience with a sociopath. Well, .. I feel pity for people like you. Do you know the movie "The Jury" or "Angry old man"? You judge Baer on the same way like this angry old man. Just saying...
Anon --
Whatever your relationship with Baer, whether or not you are actually a therapist or just claiming to be one, if you understood sociopaths you'd recognize Baer as a classic one.
My judgment of him has nothing to do with my personal experiences with sociopaths, it has to do with his actions and words. There's simply no way that taking meth means you have to slit the throat of a four-year-old girl. And his dishonesty was pervasive throughout the entire process.
"I cry when a freakin' butterfly his the windshield" -- you fell for that act? Utterly pathetic.
no, I don't believe that butterfly thing. You don't have to take it worth by worth. It was just an expression of him to let others know that he is a pansy man. Weak and cowardly actually. And he does not really love kids like he said. You can see that he lied while saying this. But that all has nothing to do with what happened. Baer is no killer, even though he killed while he was on drugs.
... you know, therapists got fooled by Baer. I tell you how. While saying "I Love Kids", therapists saw he was lying because he moved his eyelids while saying this. And this "freaking butterfly -thing" was taken word by word, and so Baer cared for some laughter under the therapists. No one believed that shit. Truth is: Baer loves kids and he really weeps easily. He his doing alot of good things no one even knows about and he doesn't even talk about it. He is doing good to others, especially to little kids. But no one ever knows about it, even not those little kids. An inmate told me what Baer is doing while laughing his ass off about him and about what he is doing. Just saying.
Anon --
Sorry, I don't buy that h elves kids. Actions speak louder than weds there. And a lot of sociopaths spend a lot of time trying to convince others of their nonexistent inner "goodness." Look at the way Son of Sam is now a jailhouse preacher.
In fact, even on the outside (of jail), nobody spends more time trying to convince others of their virtue than sociopaths. And it's almost a hard and fast rule in those prison pen pal advertisements that the more sociopathic an inmate is, the more he (or she) will talk about his good heart. Take a look at the other posts I wrote in that series, you'll see.
well, fact is here that Baer is doing good without letting others know that he is doing good things. Which sociopath would be doing good things without letting others knowing about that? Just wondering. Baer is even not trying to convince others that he is a good person. What he is doing for some little kids, he is doing that without even talking about and not even the kids do know that it was Baer. He is doing good things without even getting attention for that. That's something a sociopath wouldn't do. See, you don't buy that he is helping kids. You buy only stuff that is Baer letting look worse and evil. Fact is, the truth looks different.
Obviously he is letting some people know about it. Otherwise how would you know? I'm sure he's hoping that the right people, i.e., those who might possible grant him clemency, will find out.
PS -- Another question we haven't addressed is WHY he killed the four-year-old girl. Did he do it because he was in the throes of some kind of passion? Did he do it because he hated her for some weird reason? No, he did it because he knew she could identify him and he didn't want any witnesses. That is the most cold-blooded (and rational) of reasons, and cold-bloodedness is what distinguishes the sociopath.
I can tell you how it comes that another inmate knows about it. You know, Baer is hated this much that all other inmates always try to find his weaknesses out. They are using them against Baer. They even try to find out who is writing him, trying to destroy pen friendships and all and everything that could be only a little good for Baer. Baer lives in a hell no one is even able to imagine. An inmate "found out" what Baer is doing for the kids and that gave him the next reason to ridicule Baer.
Again: Baer was on Meth. And yes, the reason why he killed both was fear. Fact.
well, not only sociopaths do things when they get fear , they would actually never do. Even you. You only have to get involved in the right situation.
Yes, fear: fear of getting caught.
Okay, let's test that situation out the next time I murder a mother and her 4-year-old might identify me.
Hey, any of us could "get involved in the rich situation."
good idea...but don't forget to take Crystal Meth minimum 2 months before you get in this situation... makes you more aggressive and paranoid, you know.
Is that what explains your delusions?
Ever hear "takes one to know one" maybe u should see a therapist
Who cares what he's doing, we all know what his victims are not doing and that's breathing...who cares about the good he's doing what about the good the mother or little girl could have done...for all we know that little girl could of been the one to save the world or she could of been the next princess Diana "his fantasy girl" drugs or no drugs what he did is unacceptable regardless of what he does now.. he is what he is a baby killer...quit using drugs as an excuse..I been high and drunk out of my mind before but i still knew a child when I saw one..killing the mom after trying to rape her was cowardly but to kill the little girl also now that's just down right cold...I bet if that was ur daughter or mother or sister or friend u wouldn't be so protective over him defending him making excuses for his actions.Use the time u use writting him and get treated yourself. Before u end up right there with him on death row
Lives in hell? He's doing more than his victims now isn't he? His hell hasn't even begun, wait till he meats his maker then he will know what hell is
Who the hell is scared of a 4 year old besides another 4 year old...come on lady..he is an adult well into his 30's he knew what the possibilities were the first time he took the drug now he's trying to blame the drug..the drug didn't force itself into his body he put it there, therfore he and only he is responsible not the drug
Yes John she too is a sociopath that's why she is with him he talked about his German girlfriend in the documentry.even mentioned her name. You would have to be a sociopath yourself to be with a man like this..good thing he's on death row with no possible chance of having his own babies.
Bella --
Sorry, I thought you were addressing that other comment to me, I just deleted my reply.
I actually don't think that all of Baer's supporters are sociopaths, I think they're severely deluded women who suffer from hybristophilia, and, like most such women, were abused as children themselves, even though most of them deny it.
Its ok John I reread it after i posted and i too would have mistaken that comment, but yes was meant for annonymous....As a victim of physical,mental and sexual abuse from age 7 I have a deep hatred for people like this, i dont even consider them human. he was 13 yrs past being a child himself when his crimes took place so blaming the parents is just another excuse in trying to downgrade his actions to something or someone elses fault...You keep saying the drugs made him do it he didnt understand the nature of his crimes because of being influenced by these drugs...well answer me this if he didnt understand the nature of his crimes at the time he was doing it because he was under such influences how is it he understood enough to know that if he didnt kill them they could identify him, he knew enough to know what he was doing was wrong and if he got identified he would go to jail, hence the killing....DId he like sober up for 5 minutes to make these decisions
Bella --
Sorry to hear of the abuse. You're of course completely right about this, and the proof is that since Baer has been in prison, his personality hasn't changed, he continues to act exactly like a sociopath. If you've seen my original pen pals post, he was sober when he talked about fooling the psychiatrist, he was sober when he manipulated all of these crazy female hybristophiliacs, he was sober when he talked about how he deserved the death penalty (but refused to withdraw his appeals).
I've long since given up arguing with the hybristos, if you take a look at the early comments on that original post about Baer, you'll see that I did so, but then I realized what I was dealing with, and it's basically talking to a brick wall. Or like telling some severely schizophrenic patient in a mental ward that he is NOT Jesus Christ, as he believes. It's simply not worth the effort.
Psychiatrists are shockingly ignorant about mental disorders, except for those they treat regularly. They know all about anorexia nervosa, classic autism (not Asperger's), bipolar disorder, BPD, depression, OCD and schizophrenia but they're ignorant about many other mental conditions. A psychiatrist I knew IRL refused to believe that someone I knew was a sociopath. "N is probably borderline" is what she said (even though she'd only met him once and had barely spoken to him), as though she thought sociopaths only exist in prisons and Hollywood films. I later asked the same psychiatrist to explain the difference between OCD and OCPD and she didn't know.
I've heard of psychiatrists misdiagnose female Aspies with depression, OCD and various personality disorders because they think Asperger's is a "male" condition. I've also heard of one un-diagnose a male Aspie because he was able to make conversation and had appropriate eye-contact, as though the doctor thought Aspies are unable to learn rudimentary social skills, and that's it's necessarily immediately obvious that someone has AS. Don't even get me started on gender dysphoria: endocrinologists are often more informed about that than the average psychiatrist, just as the judge is usually more knowledgeable about sociopathy than the psychiatrist.
- Gethin
Gethin --
I know a young woman who was diagnosed as bipolar, but I don't see it. (I think she may have Aspergers, but I don't know her well enough to say.) I know another young woman who definitely has Aspergers, not sure if she's ever been diagnosed; I've heard people either (a) talk about how she's unfriendly and won't meet their eye, or (b) say she's "nice" in the sort of way people do when they don't know someone well. But both of these women are exceptionally attractive, the latter professionally so, and so everyone's opinion is colored by that. (I think that a lot of people project onto good-looking people whatever trait they want to see.)
What bothers me most about psychiatrists and psychotherapists is how they will so often give sociopaths the benefit of the doubt. "Oh, he has a dark side, but everybody does." As if the fact that we're all capable of anger and hatred puts us on the same level as the constant, uninhibited, seething poison of a sociopath.
The other thing that bugs me -- and of course it would bug me -- is the way that people in the profession say you can't analyze someone from a distance, as if a couple of half hour sessions in a controlled environment will give more insight into their psyches than a view of their entire lives of the sort we get when someone is really famous, like Bill or Hillary Clinton. That basically adds up to so much turf protection on the part of the professionals. And I agree, a lot of them are clueless.
That you can't analyse someone from a distance isn't even consistent; they seem to be making an exception for sociopathy. For an Asperger's diagnosis, the psych usually wants to speak to a family member about the patient's childhood. In my report, the doctor put that I'd given her a good childhood history so it wasn't necessary to ask anyone else. Likewise for gender dysphoria: I've heard several patients say their doctors requested to speak to their parents about their childhoods, with the patient required to leave the room so the relative could speak more freely.
A psychiatrist's willingness to give sociopaths the benefit of the doubt, as though they think sociopathy is curable, is consistent with their terrifying lack of knowledge about psychiatric drugs. Studies have shown that many psych drugs make patients worse, especially SSRI "antidepressants", which increase the likelihood that patients will kill themselves. And yet the shrinks keep prescribing them because it's easier to go along with received wisdom than to read some independent scientific research. An overhaul of how psychiatry is taught is necessary, IMO, with much more focus on neurology and pharmacology. As soon as people understand that sociopaths have different brain structures that render them uncapable of affective empathy, and that this isn't just down to 'traumatic childhoods', the sooner they'll come up with a treatment that works long-term.
- Gethin
Gethin --
I'm sure you're right about drugs that psychiatrists provide, especially SSRI's. And I agree with you about psychiatrists' and psychologists' reluctance to label someone as a sociopath no matter how obvious it is; and this is especially true because a sociopath knows when he's talking to a psychiatrist, and knows how to fool them, how to put on an act for a short while.
I disagree, though, about the roots of sociopathy. Yes, some have brain damage that causes psychopathy, but I've known too many sociopaths for whom there was a disconnect in childhood, either they were orphans, or had mothers who are alcoholic, or had mothers who abused them, or had a mother who was an unwanted stepchild and wanted to make her sons feel the same way. It seems to be the lack of bonding with a parental figure that causes sociopathy. Joe Arpaio is a classic example: his mother died giving birth to him, so he never knew a mother's love. And his father worked something like two or three jobs, so didn't spend much time with young Joe either.
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