Everybody seems to agree in principle that keeping guns away from someone like Nikolas Cruz is a good idea. The problem is, spotting people like him ahead of time.
It seems increasingly likely that some form of autism, probably Aspergers, was part of the lethal mix that added up to Nikolas Cruz's bloodthirsty personality. We've also heard that he was depressed, and that he was suffering from the sting of romantic rejection. He may have been on medication. And it seems fairly apparent he had a generalized resentment against Marjory Stonemason Douglas High School, which had expelled him.
But the common thread between Cruz and a lot of the other recent mass killers -- like Christopher Harper-Mercer, Elliot Rodger, Adam Lanza, and Seung-Hui Cho -- has been that they have been on the autistic spectrum.
So, the most commonsensical way for Congress to approach keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill would be to make it illegal for people with Aspergers, or more severe forms of autism, to have firearms.
Let's pause to consider, just for a moment, what would happen if Congress attempted this.
Aspergers support groups would let forth a primal scream which would be heard coast to coast. They would say that the vast majority of Aspies are law abiding, peaceful citizens -- and they would be right about that.
They would say that Aspies are far more likely to be picked on than they are to pick on other people. They'd be right about that.
The support groups would point out the futility of trying to keep Aspies from having guns, when the vast majority of people who have Aspergers are never even diagnosed. They'd be right about that.
We would be bombarded with lists of all the famous and successful people with Aspergers who had contributed to the development of civilization. Such lists are widespread; and Aspies seem to like to claim kinship with many great men who may or may not have been members of their club. (As long as you're great, if you have any quirks at all, you must be an Aspie, as far as they're concerned.)
Support groups would run ads featuring productive, good-looking, seemingly well-adjusted Aspies and say, see, this is the face of Aspergers.
They would scream discrimination. And they would be right: preventing any group, no matter how much more statistically violent, from having guns does constitute discrimination of a sort.
I almost wish Congress would try to appease the Left by "discriminating" against the one group which is in fact far more likely to commit mass shootings than any other.
The Left is constantly calling for more gun control, and for guns to be kept out of the hands of the "mentally ill." They are also constantly decrying any form of "discrimination" they can think of.
It would be fun to see them try to reconcile those conflicting goals.
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42 comments:
I think Cruz was fullblown autistic since it said he screeched loud enough for the neighbors to hear, would rage out and jump around smashing things, and was in special education.
He also looks like he could have a genetic disorder many can sometimes cause autism as a side effect based on his face, 20% of autism is syndromic, like fragile x syndrome or types of schlerosis which causes it 50% of the time, there is no disorder that is 100% though. Unlike him Im an idiopathic case, nothing in a genetic test. Its my epigenetics. It can be argued brain disorders like autism (and more) are multiple different ones with a shared symptom. Like dwarfism which has dozens of unrelated causes.
I feel i lean towards regular autism since i still have trouble with many basic things, or i may have something else on top of it causing the problems , i think i mentioned this before.
Something is really screwed up among people on tge spectrum especially in the USA where most of us do these things, of all places its there and this is happening more and more. You didnt hear of like a dozen school shootings a month in the 50s and there are none in Hong Kong.
I really don’t need a gun. And i shake my head at the resentment so many of these spectrum shooters have against society. Unlike them i know what to blame for my problems, its not other people, what have they done? Nothing, and if anything they do it to everyone, not just me. Its that brain affliction for me and them. If you gave me a minute with them i wonder if i could point out what really is the problem in their lives! But maybe im just imaging myself as a hero by talking them down, id just be told to shut up and get gunned down....
-Ga
Ga --
There does seem to be something off about Cruz's face. He's looking at the camera with an almost longing expression. And those ears don't help any. But the argument against him being a full blown autistic is that he had a girlfriend, at least for a while, and he was active on social media, even if in an inappropriate way. Plus the way he snuck away right after the shooting was fairly slick, something I wouldn't even expect an Aspie to pull off.
In my experience, Aspies tend to blow up, and you never know when they're going to have one of their meltdowns. And when they do have a meltdown, it's an almost scary thing. They rant and rage and there's no reasoning with them. The first 200 commenters after my first post on Asperger in 2011 are sort of evidence of that; it's easy to imagine most of hem throwing fits. And if enough people pick on them, or mock them, or exclude them socially, they'll grow a great big chip on their shoulders and want vengeance. Most won't express it with guns. But, a few have.
I actually think tat guns should be kept away from people on the spectrum, even though attempting to do so would result in the outcry I've described above. What do you think? Would you keep guns away from people on the spectrum, as one yourself?
Would we be better off if we treated these people the way we did before the 1990's? Those who were "off" were in special ed classes. They were protected and separated from the rest of the student population. Now they are in the classrooms with distractions, triggers, and sadly bullies. Yes, I know. I am mean and cruel.
Chris --
That's a good question. My instincts tend towards mockery myself, though I don't think I'm a bully (other than on this blog).
I suppose one argument for the earlier method is, it might cut down on these mass shootings.
I think that Cruz is a sociopath as well as possibly autistic (I'm not sure about the autism diagnosis). A commenteron another website said that Cruz has fetal alcohol syndrome (due to having widely spaced eyes). To me, the guy is a psychopath who should get the death penalty.
- Susan
Susan --
I don't smell a sociopath there. And sociopathy rarely (if ever) goes hand in hand with autism. sociopaths are shrewd about manipulating people, are often charming, and are good at getting their way, all of which are beyond the capabilities of most people on the spectrum. Cruz struck me a more infantile, a guy who would scream at his (adoptive) mother out of frustration and lose his girlfriend, probably because he was such a dweeb. And he was obsessed with guns, obsessed in a way that Aspies often are.
I think I would be against stopping aspies from having guns as I just don't think its right to take a right away from a whole group because of the actions of a tiny minority of them. Weren't a lot of the school shooters underage and using their parents guns anyway?
Peter Hitchens has an interesting take on mass killings:
"More than a dozen times I have pointed out here that almost all rampage killers, all over the world, have one thing in common – the use of mind-altering drugs. I am not trying to exonerate them. On the contrary. But I am trying to prevent these things happening in future by being much tougher on illegal drugs, and much more cautious with legal prescriptions.
Sometimes it is cannabis. Sometimes it is steroids. Sometimes it is prescription ‘antidepressants’ – themselves a scandal waiting to be exposed and understood.
But it’s always there. I look and I find it. Any number of American and European school and campus massacres, the Charlie Hebdo murders, the Japanese care home knife killings, the Nice truck massacre, Anders Breivik, the Lee Rigby murder, the Westminster van killer. These and many more we know for certain. In many other cases we don’t know only because the authorities have never bothered to find out.
These killings are a subset of violent crime, but they are unusually closely studied, which is how we know. My guess is that a huge amount of violent crime is also committed by people who have derailed their sanity by taking mind-altering drugs. But the authorities are even less interested in that."
Steven --
Yeah, I suppose I haven't thought all that carefully about whom guns should be kept away from, even though I said in a previous comment that I would have no problem with them keeping them away from autistic people. The larger point I was trying to make was that the Lefties who want to keep guns out of the hands of the "mentally ill" are going to end up practicing the kind discrimination they are constantly inveighing against.
Shaun F. just suggested after another post (before I put this one up) that Cruz was on some sort of drug. I hadn't seen that connection before, and had no idea that Breivik, and those various Muslim terrorists were on drugs. I'd have a hard time thinking that the Charlie Hebdo murders and the Westminster van killings were the result of misused pharmaceuticals rather than islamic terrorism.
He knows right from wrong, planning this attack out. I don't think that he has any remorse. He killed innocent people. In the end, the young man is evil. He definitely was cunning, trying to escape after the massacre by looking like a student, blending into the crowd. He's one scary, creepy individual. It could be that Cruz is an autistic sociopath.
- Susan
Well i dont screech or meltdown, and some people further along it dont while people less along may often do, so i dont know why some do. I probably would like to see guns taken away just to see the pride groups throw a fit. It would be a blow to their strong belief it isn’t a disorder, it be saying right to their face “okay, you refuse to take this seriously, refuse society trying to open up their arms and help, let us simply do what is expected to happen”.
They would naturally refuse guns to other groups too if it hppened. I would see it happem with passing laws on a state level, let each place decide the specifics. Maybe some will ban outright or others raise the age higher since these shooters are mainly teenagers or young adults. I just dont get why guns, why so many now in this century, why in the USA mainly, young males as the perpetrators, and why often in schools specifically. What is it about people on the spectrum and these specific factors?
I dont want to own a gun but if i did, i would hand em over.
To note, i wouldnt say there are any real advocacy groupsin the classic sense like with other disorders or groups. 90% are pride groups or sympathize with them, ive been berated by a us psychiatrist for being depressed with life and hating my condition outright since i should be “proud” like all his other patients...there is none of that shit in Asia. This lax attitude is partially to blame. Also ill repeat, those angry 200 comments were because you spoke badly of autism, tgey dont care if an autistic girl is raped or abused, they care about what people think of Autism the condition more than their own lives.
To the other person who memtioned separating in education, i would only if disruptive or in need of behaviour control. There has to be some exposure to the putside world for good results if it may be possible. But it seems some want to segregate, into safe spaces and such.
After this event,
I can expect “THEM” to start speaking for me without asking me. As they always have. And i want to say “who said im on your side?” But they will ignore me. Bunch of postmodern genderqueer weirdos with hipster clothes...
Who keeps tolerating them, funding them? Fuck you TedTalks! Fuck you Wrongplanet.net! I never asked for this mess to happen! Look at what is happening! Thisis your little idol autism at work! 17 people dead!
-Ga
To the other person, fetal alcohol syndrome could have triggered the autism. Usually a predisposition is needed then some enviromemtal insult to development imcreaes risk further to alter the pathway of development . But nobody knows what autism clearly is, the way they know what alzheimers is. You just have a bunch of people who share symptoms in common to know it exists, but nobody can pin down why or what all have in common 100% of the time. And there are exceptions to exceptions.
-Ga
One more thing to add, like the other person said, maybe its more of a issue of access to guns than gun ownership itself. Elliot Rodger and Cho bought them I think, Lanza didn't own any but his mother probably taught him how to use them since evidence points at him needing to know how to use them and reload them properly based on the amount of rounds used at Sandy Hook (why would his mother train him anyway?) but he and the rest broke into their parent's cabinet and used them or picked them up somewhere else.
Maybe if we see it more in terms of not letting access be had the way you keep sharp objects away from prisoners or psychiatric hospital patients, rather than a problem of legal gun ownership and collection as in a guy who has a history of walking into shops and buying them legally with background checks and all, that would be more accurate.
Then it's not so much a debate of legal gun laws but being careful and mental illness.
But why all these shootings mostly in the USA and why the 21st century mainly? I haven't seen this happen in Switzerland where there are also guns nor where there a epidemic of school schootings in the 1950s.
-Ga
Ga --
It strikes me that a lot of these pride movements might simply be alternatives to shame, which they would feel otherwise, and that's actually a healthy alternative, in a way. You've taken the latter approach, and it's resulted in depression. While I admire your more realistic attitude, I"m not sure it's entirely healthy.
I suppose these pride groups' attitude could be likened to narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissists simply refuse to acknowledge their own weaknesses, in fact refuse to even admit when they're wrong. It sucks for everyone around them, but in a way, it's good for them, since it keeps them on an even keel.
Ga --
Good point about access as opposed to ownership.
And good question about Switzerland vs. the US. As far as the overall homicide statistics, that can be explained demographically: blacks commit over 50% of murders in this country, and Switzerland basically has no blacks. But the school shootings over here are mostly committed by whites. Why here and not there? I don't know. There's definitely a copycat element to the shootings here, and that has exacerbated the problem here.
The media really needs to start reporting on these mass killers the way they should:
https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2012/12/if-media-reported-on-these-mass.html
While it may be effective, there's no realistic chance that the media are going to start writing insulting articles about the shooters, especially ones that ridicule them for not being masculine. What they could do is all agree not to publish the photo or name of the shooters. I think that would be effective too.
Regarding your point about Islamic terrorism...I agree that the ideology is an essential part of the mix and I've always considered it the principal motivating factor. But its theoretically possible I suppose that both the ideology and the drugs were both necessary but not sufficient on their own. He does have a point that there is almost always drugs involved in these shootings and so its interesting how often that is also the case with the Muslim attacks.
Steven --
You're right, there's no chance the media belittles the shooters that way; but it would actually be beneficial if they did.
I had no idea these terrorists were drugged up. What do they take. I would imagine it's something given to them by their handlers to make sure they follow through with the plan and don't lose their courage/nerve at the last minute. I've always made the vague assumption that it's the handlers who are the real bad guys, and the foot soldiers who volunteer to blow themselves and some infidels up in what they view as a righteous cause are in fact lower down on the sociopathy scale.
Maybe it would also be beneficial if there was blackout on the shooter's identity in the msm, while also being more realistic. They must do it partly for the fame/notoriety. The actual way its covered is an issue too.
Take a look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PezlFNTGWv4
I think regarding the terrorists in Europe, they tend to be feckless, petty criminal, drug taking types. The drugs are usually weed or antidepressants or steroids they've chosen to take themselves. I don't know about handlers...I don't know how often they have handlers.
Since your post is about what mass killers have in common, I thought I'd point this drug connection out. Hitchens has been beating this drum for ages. 25 massacres, one common link:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3716454/PETER-HITCHENS-25-murders-massacres-one-common-link-DRUGS.html
Here is a more in depth article about the possible role of SSRIs in the aurora shooting:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/aurora_shooting
John,
How do we know he really had a girlfriend? So much of what we read is bullshit.
Obama has a wife.
The real question to me is, why are AR 15's so easy to get? I am 100% pro 2nd Amendment, but that was written when people were shooting muskets. Handguns and shotguns are registered. Why not automatics?
Steven --
I loved the description in that first video you linked, "turning the killer into some sort of nihilistic pinup boy." that pretty much sums it up. I realize the media would never attack a killer for being a wimp, or a pervert, or anything like that, but it would almost be nice if they did, in that it would discourage copycats.
Yes, the drug connection could be real, and causative, though I think the autistic connection is stronger.
Anon --
I believe what I read about him having had a girlfriend because the reason he was kicked out of that school was because he was feuding with his ex-girlfriend's new boyfriend. That's a little too much circumstantial detail for it not to have been true. That doesn't make it 100% certain, but it makes it seem a lot more likely.
Good question about AR-15's. I agree, all guns should be registered. I'm always surprised to hear how easy it is for people to get weapons, as I had to jump through hoops to get a carry permit. I've taken your side of the argument there with people who are more pros-2nd than me: if all these types of guns should be readily available, then why not hand grenades? Or why not atom bombs, for that matter?
I clicked on that link and lol'd at the list of so-called famous Aspies. Because, just like Mozart, Aspies are normally socially skilled enough to become leaders of Masonic lodges #scarcasm
- Gethin
Gethin --
Agreed. Support group are into support, not realism.
I agree with other commenters on another website that I go to for news. Our country needs to reopen mental hospitals, being able to house dangerous mentally ill people. Cruz fits the description of an individual who would have benefited from this approach. Place him in a secure facility where he cannot harm the rest of society. When Reagan shut down mental hospitals, that was a huge mistake.
- Susan
Don't be coy, John. Who is "the one group which is in fact far more likely to commit mass shootings than any other?
If I were to answer that, I'd say, "White Males between the ages of 18-55." You think we should ban all of them?
Jimmy Guitar --
There's no question that a mass shooting is most likely to have been committed by a white male between the ages of 16 and, say 35 (Stephen Paddock was the rare old guy, he and the guy who shot those Republican baseball players including Steve Scalise are the only two old guys I can think of). But once you factor in proportion of the population, it's not that clear. Two mass shootings I can think of (Binghamton, by a Vietnamese, and Virginia Tech, by a Korean) were committed by Asians, who would seem to be punching way above their weight there. And blacks committed two shootings I can think of off the top of my head, the Navy yards shooting and the Roseburg Oregon shooting by Christopher Harper-Mercer, and there are roughly one-fifth as many blacks as there are whites in this country. And if you want to analyze it by religion, Muslims, of whom there are something like one million in this country, are way overrepresented, just between the Farooks in San Bernadino and the Pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando.
So, yes, whites commit more of these mass shootings than anyone else, but they're also something like 63% of the population still. And I'm not being coy.
This argument reminds me a little of the argument about breaking down serial killers by race. Most people think of them as being mostly white. And yes, far more are white than any other race. But once you take into account the proportions of the population, blacks are actually pretty close there, too.
This whole thing reminds me a little
Susan --
No question, "mental patient liberation" accounts for a lot of ills, starting with homelessness. And Cruz is an obvious case of someone who should have been kept away from guns. The FBI deserves some blame here, they were warned about him but did nothing, and the local authorities should have been more cognizant of him too. But it's hard to tell which threats are credible and which aren't. For every actual shooter, there are lots of loudmouth kids who talk big and make threats, and for every one of those, there are more who make similar threats jokingly, thinking they're being funny. And I'm sure there are other cases where someone just wants to get someone else who has no bad intentions in trouble, so reports them as a threat anyway. And it's a huge chore to check all these cases all out and weed out the credible threats.
All that said, of course Cruz was definitely a credible threat.
Gethin,
Some are on the list plausible, some aren't.
Mozart was incredibly annoying, he was said to make 100 enemies at a party once. He was noted to be immature and obsessed with the piano which he played with savant like skill. He was terrible with money. People only tolerated him because of his creativity and talent (which is the case for a lot of famous people now, except not all are talented or creative!).
Tesla also is mentioned, extreme introvert who hated social interaction and preferred his pet pigeons to people. He once cried when one of his favorite ones died. He worked hours without any sleep obsessively on his inventions. He ate at the same restaurant every night for years and had a phobia of pearls, he screamed at his secretary and ordered her to go home and change just because she wore them once.
The thing is these people who may have been on the spectrum were talented and geniuses in spite of a setback or became that way throught effort, and it would be better if these "lists" at least tried to get that message across to inspire people like me for example to forge ahead in spite of the depression and despair John mentioned I had instead of saying autism makes you an ubermensch or some pathetic crap THEY keep spouting, which just pisses me off.
To John,
It has resulted in depression, true, but real support groups like with other disorders would help, places where I could get some damn pity rather than being berated for not believing the bullshit. If society were on my side, I would have an easier time bearing it.
Every since Ari Ne'eman, a guy from one of the websites (hint: the site starts with a W) was supported by Hilary to become part of THE US council of disability, I knew it was gonna go downhill. I wonder if some of those guys are seeing to it nothing gets done after shootings like these.
What else can I lament about to depress myself more? Well the trolls will have fun. There are these guys from 4chan who go around youtube video comments writing "Ted Bundy was an austard from race mixing and inbreeding at the same time" or some crap and they keep upvoting themselves, usually until the videos which are unrelated have to shut down the comment section since it gets out of control. I imagine they get the most active after a big event, and they were the guys to falsely spread the claim Cruz was a white supremacist like you mentioned, so now everyone believes it!
Last I saw on the news, Cruz is pleading guilty. Strange, I thought he would try a mental health defense. This is unusual, escaping then proceeding with trial, all the other ASD shootings ended with suicide. What is different with Cruz? He seems rather... I don't know the word, to pull this off and go through it straightforward. He was not like Lanza was.
By the way John, what was your reasoning for believing Lanza had fullblown autism rather than aspergers? I suspected based on his late age he talked, evidence abnormal changes in adolescence in his behaviour and personality, doing things like playing at the arcade for 10 hours in a row, and just how all over the place the whole thing was.
To add, these shooters have been somewhere on the spectrum, but they don't have everything in common with eachother. Lanza and Cho were screwed up and had mental issues probably, Rodger was a douchebag virgin, don't know about Harper Mercer, Cruz is rather odd considering he escaped and is willing to stand trial, they aren't nice copies of eachother.
-Ga
Ga --
Regarding your point to Gethin, yes, the Aspie support groups should (A) stop trying to include people like Thomas Jefferson, who obviously didn't have autism, and (B) they should emphasize then advantage of autism, which is that it allows you superior focus (another way of saying, obsession with one thing). I agree that Tesla was on the spectrum, btw, I've read all about him in the past.
Not sure what is different with Cruz, except he seems less far along the spectrum than a Lanza. I can't remember all the details that made me think that Lanza was full blown autistic, but he was extremely withdrawn, evidently never talked to anybody when he was a student, his face looks weird somehow, which to me says that there was something more organically wrong, and even his own father seemed to want little to do with him.
Anon "Handguns and shotguns are registered."
Where? None of my firearms is registered and none of them ever will be. If you are going to drag out the "musket" argument get ready to lose your internet and go back to a quill and parchment.
Hey John,
I planned on posting earlier with the same argument you mentioned above; considering the population.
For example, blacks committing a larger portion of crime against whites. I would say because there are more white people around.
Martin --
Your argument has some merit. There are roughly five times more whites than blacks in this country, but that wouldn't come close to explaining the disparity in the rates of interracial violence: when whites commit violent crime, 3.9% of the time they choose black victims, whereas blacks choose white victims 47.7% of the time. That's a factor of about 12x. Plus, even if the disparity were only 5x, it would assume perfect integration across the country, which is far from the way things are. A lot of blacks live in areas which are mostly black, and a lot of whites live in areas which are mostly white. So casual interracial contact is not as common as the simple numbers in the overall population might indicate.
John, hate to nag, but if you ever do finally recall what led you to your conclusion on Lanza, I'd want to hear. His face doesn't seem abnormal the way Cruz does though, but it has that "intent" while Cruz doesn't, and he isn't so far bragging or raving or rubbing in all the people he has killed, he is pleading guilty and not acting all bizarre to gain media attention like a Charles Manson or a Dahmer. Cruz like I mentioned may have a syndromic condition or a birth complication like fetal alcohol syndrome of which autism has a chance of happening as a side effect.
If there are difference in a facial expression like in Lanza or Loughner it's due to minor physical anomalies (mpa). They are common with people with neurological conditions from ADHD, Bipolar, Schizophrenia, Autism, dyslexia, classic mental disability, exposure to tobacco smoke in the womb, and more: since poor physical conditions from birth are heavily tied to later neurological ones, even small ones, like Donald Trump having a abnormal thumb and some narrow eyes as a child (many of these are outgrown in adulthood when the body repairs itself) possibly due to ADHD. I have an abnormal ring finger on one hand, and I read what a friend wrote and suspected he had a learning disability, so I looked at his palm and noticed a bent pinky.
Abnormalities have been found in people predisposed to regular depression, and even schizophrenia (which helped support the newer view it is not a degenerative disease like alzheimers or from taking too many drugs, but is developmental like Autism and ADHD: https://www.nationalelfservice.net/cms/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fig1.png)
Holmes, who likely has schizoaffective (bipolar schizophrenia hybrid condition), has an uneven face and a small head (schizophrenic brains are smaller than normal even from birth before psychosis, but soft and cognitive symptoms may creep up from childhood), often a worn out aged look, like a famine struck I notice.
Usually the opposite of autism where sometimes there is a slightly larger forehead (due to lack of brain pruning), youthful appearance due to lack of making facial expression, and sometimes symmetrical faces (Kanner described a few autistic patients as "such beautiful children", Asperger described some cases as "very even, handsome, aristocratic, like a degenerate hedonist playboy" or something.)
This usually seems to be mostly the case in white people though.
I don't notice abnormalities in blacks even when there is a neurological condition. Maybe I'm just biased and think they look similar. Even black sociopaths don't always have that evil look. (Compare Hilary to Mugabe, Hilary looks EVIL Mugabe just looks like a grandpa).
About what the aspie lists should do, I disagree with you a bit. They should say "it's a setback but here is what you can do in spite of it". The obsession with one thing is not a healthy thing, it's better to ease the patient into being able to interact with the world with a less fogged or narrow view IF possible. Attention to pattern and detail are often enhanced in ASD people, studies show the ability to discern small details in a picture are faster done than healthy controls, explaining cases of mathematical, engineering, scientific, and computer talent (in just a lucky functioning adjusted few....) but at the cost of strong mental coherence.
That would be better, but in the end it's sorta a myth advantages are for all, I'm willing to be 90% are just disabled like me. It's like the idea all schizophrenic people must be artistic or creative with music and paintings when many struggle with employment, tobacco addiction, and cognitive impairments too.
So flat out saying "you have a setback but hard work will help you be better off than whatever you are now, work on your individual talents you have and credit them to yourselves, not autism" would be more realistic despite the grimness.
I also wish there were legit support groups who could step in and help take action to prevent further atrocities by people on the spectrum. Maybe there are some in Hong Kong, and there has never been a single school shooting here by an autistic or anyone at all for that matter. I don't know. And I'm sure Switzlerland has autistic people, but I don't see shootings there either despite all the guns. Maybe they have legit support groups, not hipster histrionic pride groups. Or maybe it's something else about HK and Switzerland, I don't know, you mentioned a copycat element in the USA.
-Ga
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