This seems to get asked a lot on Google, and it's a good question.
Sociopaths usually stick up for their children, sometimes to a crazy extent (think Texas Cheerleader Mom). But mother crocodiles do likewise: they give rides to their young, put them in their mouths without swallowing them, and kill those who would prey on their young.
Yet it seems doubtful that crocodiles have quite the same tender feelings and sense of attachment that mammals do. I can't say for sure, but my guess is that reptiles, as protective as they can be, just don't seem to have the same depth of feeling.
Maybe sociopaths -- reptilian creatures that they are -- actually feel somewhat positively toward their young. They certainly know they are supposed to feel that way. But do they actually feel the same deep-seated warmth and affection that nonsociopaths do? I don't think so; they're simply not constructed that way.
Some sociopaths abuse and even kill their young. Diane Downs shot all three other children in the back seat of her car in 1983, killing one, and leaving one a paraplegic, and the third partially paralyzed in the face. When the Oregon police arrived, she blamed it on a bushy-haired stranger. But instead of being hysterical, she calmly asked the police was if the damage to the car's rear seat was irreparable.
Charlie Manson's mother, presumably as sociopathic as he, once tried to sell him for a pitcher of beer.
In 1995, Susan Smith drove her small children into a lake in South Carolina and let them drown so that they would no longer stymie her romance with a wealthy local man.
Most sociopaths, of course, do not murder their own children. But do they feel the same devotion, the same maternal or paternal protectiveness? Do they take the same playful delight in their company? It seems unlikely.
I've seen sociopaths who are proud of their children, who view them as little trophies. I've also noticed that the extent to which they want to be seen with their children depends on the child's attractiveness. But pride is an altogether different emotion than love.
So the answer to the question posed in the title of this post seems to be: not to the same extent, if at all.
This doesn't mean, however, that they are not more likely to slash you if you cross their child's path.
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1 – 200 of 233 Newer› Newest»Hi John,
Having the dubious honor of knowing a sociopath with kids, I'd say that they treat them as an extension of their own sociopathic self. That is, they do whatever to or for them for their own gain, reputation, and joy because they believe it will mirror their own delusions of grandeur. Plus, there's always the dynamic in them, as well as all humans, that their kids are their genetic future, so they probably feel they have nothing to lose by supporting them. That's the short version. Excellent post! Brian
Brian --
Those are good points, which I didn't mention: kids are an extension of their egos, and, of course, their genetic future.
Thank you for that.
John
I have an ex-husband that is a sociopath. He is cruel to our 14 year old son. My ex is not a very bright man, but my son is very intellectual. He is constantly tearing down our son, trying to make him feel horrible about himself. I believe this is because he is threatened by our son and his potential to really become successful in life....my ex is not successful and has burned many bridges in the construction business moving job to job as a Union Laborer. It is a sad thing to see. My son is going to stop seeing him in the near future. My ex is a mean, viscious man to anyone that he has no use for. He is now with a new woman and they are 4 months pregnant. She is his new victim and I feel sorry for her and her kids.
Anonymous --
You seem to have a good handle on the situation, and recognize our ex for what he is. I"m sorry for your problems, and your son will undoubtedly be better off if he sees his father less. Sociopaths just spread misery wherever they go.
I'm a sociopath- I agree with some of the points- I would feel for kids the same way I do for family. I don't care for them, but I constantly feel like I should. But it'd never go past that point-
Anon --
You're the first person I've ever heard admit that he's a sociopath.
I have doubts if I am a sociopath!
Perhaps there are degrees of sociopathy, as one of my readings suggested.
Chris --
My experience is, if you are one, you're totally without the normal complement of emotions, and that's true of all of them, however it gets expressed.
I think "lesser degrees" of sociopathy just translate as varying levels of narcissism.
My wife is a socialpath she jut left with my 4kids children ran of with another man wont tell me where wont even text been cheatin n me behind my back fo 10years here sister just told me every thing the other day she had him one of them stay at house wile i was gone trucking shes had kids and gramma so theratened off the years they were affraid to tell me fill like im losing my mind with wory
Missing babys --
Sorry to hear about your problems. Sociopaths are never anything but trouble.
I've been duped by a sociopath. I am now the 5th woman to bear him a child. He's been married twice, luckily i wasnt number 3. He played up such a story of how bad his childhood was, his younger brother being murdered, abuse, the loss of his Mom etc. Ever since I broke it off with him he's been out of controll! He doesnt help me buy groceries, he inconsistently gives me money, but blows the rest on drinking and partying. He recently has 3 different cars that hes been driving, yet as a mechanic he hasnt even bothered to fix my car! What I dont understand or like, is that he wants me to name our son after him! As if hes worth the honor! When I told him no, he ran off and ignored me for weeks! I feel I need to play games just to get his cooperation. Very sneaky and no doubt promiscuous. When I confront him on his behavior he goes into a rage! This is so frustrating! I really rather he pay up and leave our lives for good!
I wish I could warn innocent women, he prowls online, fb, dating sites, anyway over the internet!
HImom --
He does sound exactly like a sociopath. Sorry for your bad luck in getting tangled up with him. And "out of control" is the perfect description of a sociopath's behavior. All of us(nonsociopaths0 seem to get burned once. After that, we get wise.
My ex was dishonest, hiding bills, sneaky with her cell phone (it never worked when she left the house), eventually I figure out she is having an affair, she moves out then months later begs to reconcile, I do for the kids. She tells a friend soon as I finish the basment that I am out of here, I finish it, she tells me to leave. She remarries 6 weeks after the Div. I start getting love letters but iqnore her. I remarry 3 years later, she begins a crusade to destroy my relationship with my kids telling them I dont love them anymore. She divorces Oct 2010 and remarries Feb 2011. Our daughter tells us "bad things happened at night with Jeff in my room" but my ex ignores this and convinces a DCS case worker that my wife put this in her head. The court battle is now ongoing, my daughter is posting suicidal thoughts and morbid fascination at age 12. I have no contact with my child until court. Any thoughts?
Anon --
You seem to understand your situation perfectly, there's nothing I can tell you which will add to your knowledge, you realize that she is a sociopath. All I can tell you is that you made the right move by not accepting her "love" letters, and my advice is, when it comes time to talk about custody to the judge, be sure to tell him/her everything you said in your comment here. Emphasize what your daughter has said, and if you need to, get your ex's other exes to testify against her, which I'm guessing they will be only too happy to do. Most courts have a fair amount of experience in dealing with sociopaths, and know what to look for, so as soon as they realize what she is, they should be on your side. In the meantime, all you can do is be patient. Sorry about your problems.
Anon.... re: "is now posting suicidal thoughts and morbid fascination" I'm assuming your viewing her social network site, I would print those pages out as evidence
My ex husband is a sociopath - and he chose to sexually abuse our daughter between ages 18 month and 4years. he 'loved' her, and therefor made it right in his mind to use her for sex.As he now knows that I know who he really is, and his children too, he chose to give up his parental rights (my husband is now adopting them)
I do feel sorry for my ex husband's new wife. She, their 3 year old daughter and new baby on the way, wil find out somewhere in the future that they did not mean anything to him really. They were just there to 'make him look normal' or something.
So in my opinion: Sociopaths are incapable of true love towards humans of animals - but they do overflow of superficial love, making their victims believe their lies of 'true love'
Anon--
You understand perfectly. Glad you got out of that situation. And yes, unfortunately his new wife is in for a rude awakening.
If I could press a button that would cause all the sociopaths in the world to drop dead, I'd do it. That would make me the biggest mass murderer in history, but I'd be doing the world a huge favor.
I believe myself to be a former sociopath. At age 34 I began to sincerely care about others, no longer emulating it. I've felt that a study should be done on myself as I don't know what caused the change. At times it is welcomed however during sad times I wonder how ppl deal with a lifetime of feeling that pain. Most sociopaths aren't bad, we can no more help how we were born than a person born with cancer.
Anon --
Sorry, I don't buy it. Either you are faking it now or you were never a sociopath to begin with. Sociopaths simply don't change, and they can no more grow a conscience or the ability to love late in life than can a man missing a leg grow that leg back.
It is true, however, that sociopaths can not help but be sociopaths. And while they're not quite born that way, the die is usually cast within the first couple years of life when they don't establish a bond with another human being.
That is your belief. I will believe the testimony that is my life. One should never limit one's beliefs to what is read in books, nor on the experiences of the masses. In other words, when someone tells you who they are, believe it. I personally was born this way.
Anon --
"In other words, when someone tells you who they are, believe it."
Doesn't that strike you as a trifle naive? Do you believe everyone you meet? As a "former sociopath," you should know better.
Maybe you are correct about me because I do not care enough to go back and forth over MY reality. Lol, but you have a good one......or don't.
Anon --
It's not just my reality, it's every expert in the field who ever wrote a book on the subject. Sociopaths can change their behavior, but they can't change their character.
Hi not sure how you can believe someone is a sociopath. I am divorcing my husband after 22 years. He has always been difficult and I always felt insecure but thought that was a problem with me. He has had at least 4 affairs and when my son discovered the last i threw him out and he now lives with her. It's only since he has gone that his behaviour has got worse. He denied the affair even though he moved in with her, but whats worse is that both children took the fact he was living with another woman badly. He though seems proud of it as thought for true love its worth the sacrifice. Our youngest son is now on drugs hallucinates and needs see's a counsellor, his school life has nosedived and he is about to be expelled. Before all this he was a goos fun loving kid but here it is my ex does not seem to care, there has been no offer of help, he has excuses and reasons for evrything, he is holding up the divorce, maintenance has dwindled to almost nothing. He has moved away so distance he says is a problem for him to be real help, he plays the victim saying he has ocd, no money etc. This is his first christmas away from his kids and he has booked a 2 week holiday with the other woman over the entire christmas period to an exotic indian ocean island. there is loads more, but when you talk to him he sounds so upset about things that any thoughts he is a sociopath fly out the window its only after that you realise that alot what was said was a lie and also any promises are rarely or only temporarily kept. he twists the truth and tells his family distoted versions but when you confront him he either denies it or has a plausable explanation. I think I am going crazy and have it all wrong.
Anon --
Sounds to me like you're not going crazy, but have it all right. I was convinced he was a sociopath by your description of how whenever you talk to him he's very convincing and all thoughts of him being a sociopath fly out the window, but it's only afterwards that you realize everything he said is a lie That's the way it is with sociopaths, they are skillfully persuasive and convincing in person, even when everything they say is a lie. (Some of the other stuff he did just sounds like normal male behavior, to tell the truth.) In any case, you're better off without him. Just make sure you tell the court about his behavior so that the judge realizes what you're dealing with, and can make the appropriate financial decisions.
I had never heard of the term until a counsellor I was seeing who was a DV expert said after the first session that he was a sociopath and she gave me a book to read. I read it and agreed with it and then could view his behaviour more objectively but when I talk to him or remember soem nice things it seems as though i am trying to create a lable for him. But i never felt secure, he had terrible tempers, would never take reponsibility for the mortgage or anything, would say hurtful things but it was just his humour and I was too sensitive and rarely showed true emotion unless it was to make others feel sorry for him. His sisters say he has always been the same and I just didn't see it. Since he's gone I have blossomed lost over 7 stone look completely different and am starting to feel a bit more confident and guess what he never even mentions it. Thank you so much for your answer
Anon --
A "terrible temper" is another trait that sociopaths have, it' partly the fact that they have no self-control, and partly that the threat of imminent eruption is a good way to manipulate people.
Glad to hear you're blossoming. Just keep your ex at arm's length.
PS -- If you want other examples of sociopathic behavior just type in "Sociopath alert" in the search bar at the top of my blog and you'll see analyses of other sociopaths. The one on Bill Clinton may be the most informative.
I'm a diagnosed sociopath. I currently have a 9 month old son. I had him because my husband really wanted a child.
I don't treat my son bad or make him cry on purpose, but I also don't feel that "motherly" love for him that I should. I take care of all his basic needs, but I just go through the motions.
My husband is the nurturer, the one to cuddle him and play with him.
I do think he is cute and I get a kick out of him when he is being defiant.
I would protect him against harm. I'm just glad that he has his father.
I don't want him growing up to be like me. It's a lonely world that I live in.
Anon --
That is a remarkably honest self-description if in fact you are a sociopath.
It seems that most everything on the internet is full of hateful language toward sociopaths. After 7 years of a relationship with my husband I only recently learned that he is a sociopath. Through all the pain and hurt I have experienced in our relationship with two children involved I still cannot hate him. He has no remorse and it hurts however to hate this group of people is unfair because they simply cannot change or control it. It is like hating a person for being born with a deformity, disease or skin color. Yes, it is sad that these people like to hurt others however I believe it to be the worst curse to be born or brought into. They may think that thier personality is the greatest gift but the truth is how awful and lonely it must be to never know what love feels like. Love can and should be the greatest feeling that exists and they will never experience it. They might do awful things but they have no ability to comprehend what it feels to others or empathise. Sociopathy is the biggest curse in my opionion to everyone who is one or knows one. It is very sad.
Anonymous --
At a certain philosophical level you're right: sociopaths cannot help but be sociopaths, and it is a curse in a way, they will never experience love, and lead hollow lives. (Take a look at the post I put up yesterday (2/26/13) on whether or not Aspies are responsible for their own behavior, I mentioned exactly that point about sociopaths.
But if anybody is deserving of hatred, it's sociopaths. They feel absolutely no compunctions about hurting other people, and feel no love, so there's no reason to feel any compunctions about your feelings -- or even actions -- towards them.
I must say, if you really feel the way you ay you do, you're a very forgiving person and a very decent soul (far more so than me). I hate to tell you this, but your husband actually picked you for that reason; sociopaths usually pick spouses who are the opposite of them because those are the people who make the best victims. Sorry that such a decent person as yourself would have to be married to one, you don't deserve it.
I have two kids with my partner and a lot is definitely not right. He always loses his temper when confronted. I can't talk to him like an adult about anything really important. He's abusive in front of our children. I know he's cheated and tries to humiliate me behind my back, talk badly of me and make everything seem as though it's my fault. I do everything that is important in maintaing a decent lifestyle and do all the hardwork with the kids. He's never consistent or committed to anything in life and is always dreaming big, things that are not at all realistic. I always end up feeling like the guilty one and so down on myself. I start to abandon all the positive plans I had in my life, become more irresponsible because I feel so negative and drained all the time. I know I shouldn't be with him. Everything inside me tells me not to go there and I leave him.... At first I feel fantastic and become motivated and find my sense of self again, And I maintain this but gradually I start to feel insecure about the whole situation, like I would be so upset if he found someone else and moved on to be happy after how he treated me and I will spend my life alone working so hard to raise and financially support two kids on my own. Scared he will try manipulate or sabotage the hard work I put into them and turn them against me or do something devious. I get insecure now that no one will want to be with me and I never want someone like him to come into my life, especially not with children and worried about having a man who is not their father around them, as they are both so young. I think the main point of it all is I'm always worried that he is not trust worthy in any regard. Not to teach my kids the right things in life, to be supportive and be capable of being a real parent, and sometimes I prefer him around so I know what's going on with him, that and my daughters love and miss him terribly when he's gone. He's got a lot of sociopathic traits, anger, compulsive lying, promiscuousity, appears to love himself, denial, manipulation. I'm just as scared to be with him as I am not to be.... I feel insane, Like I am a loser, I can't get it together, I wish He would disappear for good, but I don't know why I love him so deeply and can't at least end this relationship, just got back together, started piecing all the lies together, he tells me I'm crazy and shows no regard for my feelings, says I'm sabotaging our relationship on purpose. I regret it so much, he won't leave my house when I tell him I don't want to be with him anymore. Why do I do this to myself? I have left and got back together with him so many times it's just so dumb. I need some advice and help so I can cut this feeling of loving him and wanting him near me, it's ruining his life, my life and my kids lives. He has no idea that anything is a problem and I'm dumbfounded by this. Please help.
Anon --
"Please help" -- honestly, there's nothing I can do.
The advice I usually give people when it comes to sociopaths is to just put as much difference between you and the sociopath as possible. A sociopath will never change, and no matter how much you try to please him, he will never be satisfied. He will always be the way you describe him.
I'm a little surprised that you still love him the way you say you do if you see him so clearly. All I can say is, if you're happy with the way things are now, stay with him. Otherwise, leave. I understand that you're worried about having a strange man around your daughters, and about having to support them on your own. You see it as a frying-pan-or-fire situation, and maybe it is. But just keep in mind, he will never change. And if he is a sociopath, he is not going to be a good influence on your daughters in the long run.
In the meantime, it sounds as if he's done a good job undermining your self esteem, which sociopaths excel at At the very least -- the VERY least -- don't let him do that. Think about what you thought of yourself, how you felt, before you met him: you're that same person.
Wow- I had no idea so many other people were experiencing the same as me.
I have been separated from my sociopathic husband for 12 months now and his behaviour since the desperation has been much much worse than when we were together.
Especially when he found I had moved on with another man, he was horrible and went from being a calm cool and collected man to loud, scary and abusive.
I spent 10 years with this man and made excuses for his coolness of emotion with his traumatic child hood.
Since our separation I have found that the man who was my best friend in the world and father of my 3 children (young children) had gambled away our life savings, children's bank accounts and stolen money from his place of work, which saw him in Court last month facing theft and fraud charges
For the entire 12 months I have found out on a weekly basis of his betrayal, lies and deceit throughout our entire relationship, from the very beginning he was cheating up until the end, I had no idea at any stage, he was in the Army for 7 years, this made our life unpredictable and perfect for his deceitful ways, he was able to hide his lies very well and EVERYONE was surprised to find out what he was really like. He still treats me like I belong to him and says I am still his wife. He has slept with friends of mine, his best friends much older sister, his grandmothers hairdresser, a kindergarten teacher 'friend' a school teacher 'friend'
His capacity to charm very decent intelligent people astounds me. He sends me text messages attempting to stroke my ego/ emotions/ heart strings which are seemingly kind and caring to an outsider, however I now recognise this as his tool of manipulation, his understanding and intuition of people's vulnerabilities is astounding, he zooms right in without them having ever seen it coming, making you feel as though you have a special connection.
On the other side of the coin, he enjoys antagonising me, a photo of his faeces and messages describing disgusting acts of sexuality with grotesque additions.
He see's me and his kids as an extension of himself, in his eyes, this is love.
Anon --
Thanks for your four part message. Yes, your ex definitely sounds like a sociopath. I occasionally get comments from women who say their ex is a sociopath, and I'm left wondering if he's really a sociopath or if they had an ugly breakup and the woman just wants to think of him that way, but your description left no doubt. All I can say is, you made the right move by leaving him.
For starters half of the 'my husband a sociopath' shit is just bitching. No he is not you're probably just a dumb bitch who got fat and lazy after having kids and can't comprehend that someone doesn't love you anymore so you have a cry and call sociopath. Pft! The ones that are sociopathic behaviour, and there are only a couple, just shows how stupid people are! Poor little victims getting psychologically abused :(
Anon--
Sociopaths are roughly 3-4% of the male population, but sometimes I get the impression that about 15 - 20% of divorcees describe their exes as sociopaths. Doesn't add up.
That said, I think a fair number of the women who've commented here did have sociopathic exes.
Hi- you replied to my message as please help- to respond to the last message from anon... I don't think people are just bitching about their ex partners, whether or not they are a sociopath, they have been abusive. And to be investigating sociopaths in the first place Must mean that something mentally wrong with the guy... Or they must have serious behavioral issues, low morality. I am a good looking 24 year old mum of two, I exercise, eat well, do everything physically possible to try to feel good regardless of my situation. But when you are in a relationship with someone you believe to be a sociopath, they make you feel bad about yourself, even if you were
as good looking as Miranda Kerr, and I guess the
approval That counts is that of the people who you love. I know I feel extremely mentally disturbed, and when
someone put you down and controls your life and you feel there's always a threat from them, all you want to do is get away or resolve the problem, find peace of mind.
John Craig: How do you tell the difference between a narcissist and a sociopath?
Anon --
All sociopaths are narcissists, not all narcissists are sociopaths.
Narcissists are people who have an exceedingly high opinion of themselves not based on the facts. They have a hard time admitting that they're wrong, and will come up with lame excuses to justify their own mistakes. They are often somewhat hypocritical.
Rough guess: narcissists are roughly 30% of the population.
Sociopaths are narcissists who will do absolutely anything to get what they want. They have absolutely no brakes on their personalities. Whereas a narcissist will have some conscience, and will draw the line at doing truly despicable things, a sociopath has no lines he won't cross. He is utterly without loyalty, incapable of love, completely dishonest, impulsive, and often seems to brimming over with hostility at people for no reason at all. They have absolutely no regard for other people. Serial killers -- who, psychologically, are not so different from other sociopaths -- consider your life worth less than their orgasm.
Sociopaths are roughly 3% of the population.
Hi there! Thank you for sharing your thoughts on this subject. This subject fascinates me to no end. I believe that my two older half-sisters are both sociopaths, but in different ways. There must be different tiers or types of sociopathy. I have noticed that the oldest one has very little empathy for other people, and she married a wealthy man (now divorced) and has become something of an elitist. She has such a sense of entitlement. She has to have the best for herself and her children and has to WIN at everything. One does not dare criticize her or her CHILDREN (God forbid) or you will certainly wish to you had not. SHE REALLY DOES LOVE HER KIDS, but please not that her kids are an EXTENSION of herself. They are her "genetic future" as someone said. SHE WOULD KILL FOR HER KIDS. Trust me, I know she would. If her kids do anything wrong - or if she does anything wrong - it is always, always someone else's fault. Period. So can sociopaths love? I think they love their kids as themselves, and fiercely protect them. Their children are their "property". I have also noticed than my sister only has a use for small children that are not hers (the children of other family members). She can so easily endear herself to them but breaks off any relationship with them as they age and become more complex and begin to think for themselves. I think she tends to regard them as little dolls to dress up and play with, often showering them with nice gifts. Our relationship was exactly like this. She was childless when i came along when she was age 22, and she did not become a mother until she was 30. I remember her telling me once when I was age 10 that her children would always come FIRST. Well, I never expected even then to replace her kids, but the way she said it was cruel that I secretly went off to weep privately. She seemed to enjoy hurting me, and when she realized that I was weeping and trying to hide that fact, she seemed very pleased by that. She is a sick, sick woman. I have more to this story, but will stop here.
Anon --
From what you're telling me, it sounds as if your eldest sister could be just a garden variety narcissist, and not necessarily a sociopath. There are a lot of people who are egotistical like that, and almost everybody is fiercely protective of their children.
It sounds far more likely as if your middle sister is a sociopath.
Either way, it sounds as if both are best avoided, to the extent you can do so.
Hello. I wrote that comment earlier about my two half-sisters. Actually, I was speaking only about the elder sister in that comment. I think there was not enough "room" to write about both! That description was of her alone. Yes, I believe she is a narcissist, but I also think she is sociopathic to some degree. But you could be right about the middle sister being more sociopathic. The elder is a a recluse who never worked a day since she married money - even after her divorce and her children being now grown. She was never, shall we say, a beauty by conventional standards, but she wasn't ugly. The middle sister on the other hand has always been extremely gregarious, flighty, very impulsive, talkative, gossipy, and makes "friends" easily wherever she goes. She was the high school beauty queen who married the high school football star shortly after graduation - her first love. She was pregnant at the time (shotgun marriage, I guess - I was not yet). I think she wanted him more than he wanted to her. After having two boys, he left. Since then she has been married 4 times. She ran the first three off. The fourth died under what I call suspicious circumstances. He was a bit older than her, and he had a heart attack in their living room one day. She came home from work, he was there on the sofa and she thought he was sleeping. She said he was making some noises and she thought he was snoring. I don't know at what point she figured out that something was wrong, but she did call an ambulance. When my husband and I first heard about this, neither one of us immediately told each out our thoughts about it, but amazingly enough we both thought the same thing. I do not think she could actually physically kill someone, but I and my husband have both agreed about the fact that she could WAIT before calling 911. You see, despite being married four times, she has had her share of financial woes. She didn't have two nickels to rub together. She never could responsibly raise her kids or manage her money/checking account. My middle sisters KNOWS how to get a man when she puts her mind to it. Even at her age she still thinks she is the belle of the ball and the center of attention. She can lose weight and get herself dolled up to attract a man when she has her sites set on one. And she is charming. She will cook for him and woo him and ultimately have him wrapped around her little finger. And then, they get married, and she stops cooking and cleaning, won't sleep with the guy, sweet talks, demands and/or pleads for money (whatever works) for herself AND her grown sons. After being married to her fourth husband for less than a year, she managed to convince him to basically cut ALL of his children from his previous marriage out of his will and to leave everything to her - and she brought NOTHING into that marriage (he had a house and a small business). My middle sister is one of those fakey "born again" Christians. She is not extremely educated or intelligent, but she is smart like a predator and can zero in on the vulnerable and needy and befriend - them. They become her loyal "disciples" and think she can do no wrong. I did not attend her fourth husband's funeral, but I heard from a reliable source that she behaved as if she were at a luncheon or some other social event - again the center of attention. Before his death, her husband and her were not always staying in the same house. She had hers which HE saved her from losing and helped her fix up, and she had hers. He was good to her - better than ANY man before, and she used him and never loved him. World beware because I think she is on the prowl for the fifth.
John Craig, my parents were fiercely protective of me, but they taught me honesty and to not hurt, abuse, or use other people. They never wanted me to be hateful or to be a liar or a thief. If I did something wrong, I was punished and had to own up to it. My mother would embarrass me so much that I would never want to do whatever it was that got me into trouble again. I don't know WHERE my sisters get these traits from because they are not part of who I am and who my parents were or are. Since they are my half-sisters, they may have come from some other part of the family, and also from their environment. My oldest sister nearly pushed me down the stairs once in a rage. I trusted her so much up until that time that I never thought she could hurt me for anything OR saw it coming, This was because I was being too loud and would wake her children. THAT is what I despise about people like her. Her children are an extension of herself, and she has no regard for others - they HAVE to come first no matter what. She once got to the point where she would literally fly off the handle and attack people in our family - especially those she perceived as being weaker. She was finally hospitalized by force and was put on medication to calm her and I believe she still is on meds to this day. I don't know what would happen if she is off of them. She and my two sisters are different in many ways, but their ultimate goal is the same: they have to ALWAYS get their way no matter what, their children have to come out on top, and they HAVE to be in control of anything and everything that that they or their kids are somehow involved in. Both are very mean-spirited, and have tried to sabotage me at various times in my life. You are right, I have to steer clear of them because they cause so much damage when they do not get their way or someone displeases them in some way. And my eldest sister "rewards" those who kiss her butt and please her with generous gifts - that is how she makes people feel indebted to her and keeps her loyal disciples. Both my sisters were and are extremely jealous of me and anything I have ever done or had. I am presently married now for almost 13 years to the only man I have ever been married to, and both would ruin it for me any way they could IF I let them. Also, my eldest sister was married to an emergency room doctor. She is NOT stupid. Back when I was very young, I was going to have my wisdom teeth out. I was in college and living alone. I called her to tell her. I told her I did not like the idea of not being able to eat or drink anything before the procedure. I had NO idea why (choking hazard). She told me that it was OKAY for me to have some coca cola JUST before the procedure that morning at 11:00. I did. LUCKILY for me, the receptionist asked me if I had had ANYTHING to eat or drink that morning. I told her I had a small glass of cola. She immediately cancelled the appointment and said I'd have to reschedule. I was so naive and trusting then. I realized - and so did my mother (who is deceased now) - that my eldest sister had DELIBERATELY tried to cause me harm and possibly even cause my death. It would have been the perfect crime/murder, because she never actually touched me and it would have been my own fault for not following instructions - and she knew this. THIS is how her mind works. She admitted to it, but it was a half-assed apology. Again she blamed SOMEONE ELSE - her husband, the ER doctor. You see, my eldest sister is a coffee addict and she says her husband informed her once before some surgery she was having that it was okay to have it just before the surgery. THIS was her way of getting even with SOMEONE - me (a convenient target). She would NEVER do that to her kids. You see, she had no use for me when she finally had her own kids. My mother often tried to warn me that she was extremely jealous of me and would hurt me if angered. I feel like Cinderella with the two ugly HALF-SISTERS.
Anon --
Okay, you've got me convinced, the oldest one is a sociopath. That story about telling you to have the Coke right before the operation is all I need to hear. And the rest fits in perfectly.
Yes, do stay away from them both. Your mother was right, they only want to hurt you.
You say they're your half-sisters, and your mother warned you about them. I take it that they had a different mother, whom your father had been married to first? My guess is that their own mother was a sociopath, or, at the very least, alcoholic or something like that so that she was emotionally unavailable to them. I'm also guessing you're better-looking than them, which is partly why they're so jealous.
I have a mother who is a Socio path. My dad and eldest brother died because of depression due to her. She blames my dad for everything every bad business ventures that turned sour, everything. When my dad passed away, she blames my eldest brother and made him feel guilty of how he treated my dad, even though that it was her who blamed my Father for everything. Now my niece is under her care and shes 12 years old. i feel so bad.. I feel frustrated trying to make her understand yet i know she can never understand the right way. I have moved out since college and only see her on occasions. I know i can never be under one roof with her more than 4 days, or else she starts with me again. The fact that she is my mother, it hurts.
Thank you for your responses and your insight. I guess it's hard to write everything that is wrong with my sisters down in only one little paragraph. I was trying to summarize and cite a few examples. I was born to "older" parents in their 40's, and believe it or not, but my half-sisters and I share the same biological mom. My father is their step-father. So, my mother KNEW her own daughters, and because they are so much older than I am, she knew them much better than I ever did or ever will. After all, she raised them. So yes, she knew that the could potentially hurt me in some way. My sisters and my two half-brothers' father died when they were all little, the youngest was a baby. They never knew him. He was handsome and apparently had some good qualities - good enough to attract my mother, but he also had problems which I won't go into (getting too personal). Obviously I never knew the man as he died a long time before I was born. I suppose my siblings are a product of his genes and the environment in which they were raised. My mother had a tough childhood. She lost her mom at 14 and her dad abandoned his family when she was just a baby and divorced my grandmother and married another woman and proceeded to start another family with her. So my mom had some problems and issues with feeling unloved and abandoned, but she was a good woman who had a lot of sympathy and empathy for others. She was stern and strict. My dad was more easy-going than my mom, but he was an alcoholic. He never got involved in disciplining his step-children. He left that solely to my mother who could be harsh. As far as looks go, my eldest sister had very low self-esteem and never really felt very pretty. She and my other sister were and probably are still jealous of the majority of females that they meet and know. The middle sister was considered to be the pretty one and had the better figure, and there was rivalry between them growing up. My middle sister married too young to a man who probably wasn't really in love with her and proceeded to begin a family at a very young age (19). It was all downhill after that. She even tried to give her first two sons to our mother to raise, and my mom said "no" because I was also little and she had me to raise still. My middle sister obviously didn't want the "baggage" weighing her down and she knew full well that having kids from a previous marriage was not a major turn-on for men. Undoubtably she wanted to find herself a new man and start anew. My oldest sister would never do that, though. She literally lives for her kids. My oldest sister seems to lack empathy for other people other than her own children. Take Natalee Holloway as an examples. I know that she probably feels no empathy for her. Why? because Natalee was everything my sister never was. That's why.
Anonymous (with the sociopathic mother) --
I've never heard of people who've died of depression before, unless it was by suicide. Your mother sounds like a real pill, and a narcissistic personality who will never admit blame for anything, and I don't blame you for moving out. But I haven't heard enough yet to convince me she's a sociopath.
Anon (with the sociopathic half-sisters) --
I guessed wrong about your family background. All I can say is, put as much distance between yourself and those horrible half-sisters as possible. You know they're out to harm you, so there's absolutely no upside to being near them.
I don't know if you have kids, but if you do, just learn from your sisters (to not be like them, since they're the opposite of role models).
Thanks again (I wrote the earlier comments about my sociopathic half-sisters). I have one JUST more comment to make about the elder one. I currently don't speak to either of my sisters and probably will not ever again. When my father passes away one day, there's a possibility that we may meet again, but I will try to avoid any contact with them. MY SISTERS HAVE ALWAYS, ALWAYS CALLED ME A SPOILED BRAT - even in front of their children, and even though I really and truly wasn't, this label has stuck with me all of my life. They did this as a way of making me and my parents feel GUILTY and thus cause us to give into whatever their demands were. And their children are far more spoiled than I ever was (if I was at all). When I was younger, I sincerely believed that my oldest sister loved me and wanted what was best for me because that is what I had been raised to believe. It has been hard to accept that this was all a lie and that she does not care for me they way I thought she did and expected her to. Even from the first obvious signs, I could not believe it or accept it all at once. It has taken time. Her "love" for me began to change as I began to mature into a young teenager and young woman. She began to hate me, and it was obvious to everyone that she was jealous of the attention and compliments that I received (and even our mother noticed this and tried to warn me). She would always put me down in some kind of underhanded way. Anyway, the last time I called my oldest sister (some time last year), I wanted to tell her exactly what I think of her and berate her for never visiting my father who is in poor health now - a man who tried to love her as best he could and who probably cared more for her than her own biological dad ever did (the truth does hurt, doesn't it?). I wanted to ask her if she felt as if her life would be better if her own dad had lived and my mother never married my father (obviously I would not be here). As of yet, I never got that opportunity. Most of my half-siblings have always blamed my parents for their problems in life. My eldest sister set me up on my birthday about a year prior to that by calling me and leaving a message on my voicemail asking me to call her back because she wanted to wish me a happy birthday and had a little something she wanted to send me and she needed my mailing address. I did so not realize that she was up to one of her many tricks. She had blocked my number when I tried to call her back, and that was her typical way of giving me the middle finger as usual (she was displeased with me for some reason or another). So I called her about a year later because I wanted to get somethings off of my chest, and though she had had her old number changed, I did find out something that day was pretty darn telling and should not be a surprise at all. I got another woman on the phone who now had her old number. I obviously did not know this person and she did not know my sister BUT she knew immediately who I was asking for. She tried to be nice but I could hear the impatience in her voice. She said that people called there EVERY SINGLE DAY asking for my sister, and it was becoming disruptive to her family. Most of the callers were bill collectors who were undoubtably looking for her spoiled rotten son who she is supporting along with his greedy, gold-digging ex-wife and their two kids. Despite him having money all of his young life thus far, he has never managed to complete college and never worked for much more than minimum wage- and he certainly can't manage his own money. He is not doubt waiting for his parents to die one day so he can collect - him and his ex. GOOD! It was sweet music to my ears.
Hi! I wrote some comments recently about my two sociopathic half-sisters, and I just thought of something that may help shed some light on whether or not sociopaths can love anyone else other than themselves. I do not want to rehash what I already said in my earlier comments. The example that I thought of since those comments were made is that of Cinderella and her evil stepmother and two ugly stepsisters. I think that it is very clear that Cinderella's stepmother is a sociopath - at least that is what I surmise from the story (and we all know that story and have either seen the famous Disney version or at least had the story read to us when we were children). I think the stepmother has all the earmarks of a sociopath. She is glib on the surface and charming when she needs to be, but she is also very conniving, deceitful, manipulative, CONTROLLING, unscrupulous, SELFISH, and lacks empathy for others (except for herself and her daughters). I do not think that it can be argued that she loves her two ugly daughters, and will destroy anything that stands in the way of getting what she or daughters want. She has to win at any cost. That to me is a classic sociopath. I have heard that many serial killers are sociopaths, but very few sociopaths are serial killers. So the stepmother is not violent, but she is just as destructive without having to resort to physical violence. SO, I do think sociopaths CAN love a limited few - as in themselves and their OFFSPRING (and those are the ONLY people that they every truly "love"). Their children and their grandchildren are extensions of themselves. They are their property, and God help the person that harms or crosses their offspring in any way, shape, or form. I am not sure if this love is "true" love, because to me a sociopath does not see people as individuals and love them for the individual that they are. They love them because they are THEIRS - they are their property. Now this is not to say that there cannot be sociopaths who would harm their children and grandchildren. CERTAINLY they are, and Susan Smith is a perfect example of that (and there are many others). I am simply saying that I truly believe that there are certain types of sociopaths who DO love their children, but once again this love for them comes from them "belonging" to the sociopath - as in being their offspring.
Anon --
That is actually a fantastic analogy, and conclusion. I'd never thought of that tale in those terms before, but your analysis is perfect. The stepmother is the perfect illustration of a selfish, unempathetic and unsympathetic person who wants the best for her own children, and so loves them in twisted sociopathic fashion, but at the same time has passed on her own ugly characteristics (mental as well as physical) to her own offspring.
The best fiction writers -- Agatha Christie comes to mind -- understood sociopathy, and the nature of evil, very well.
Thank you for that.
I know this is an old post, though I found it through Google when putting in the search, "Can sociopaths love their children". My dad was a sociopath (or rather, still is, though I say it in past tense as I've purposely cut contact and want nothing to do with him.) and going by his personality, I'd say no. He only cared when it was to his advantage, which means it wasn't really true, honest care towards myself or my brother, but rather a care for himself.
At the same time, as much as I hate to say it, sometimes I wonder if I'm some weird mix of sociopath and "normal" due to my upbringing. There's only 3 people I feel for deep down, and only 1, maybe 2 of those, I would put before myself in an emergency situation... and I say that while still being somewhat on the fence about it. I can force tears to appear sad at funerals, etc... though there are times my tears ARE genuine. I don't act abusive like my dad at all or purposely seek harm on people like him either. I guess sometimes I wonder if I'm just confusing psychopathy with being numb. And numbness to emotions would be an understandable safe guard given an abusive upbringing, right?
It just frightens me sometimes because I don't want to be anything like him. Sometimes I worry that if people knew how I really felt even half the time, they wouldn't trust me, let alone want to be around me. If I think too much about it, even I won't like me.
Anonymous --
I think I can actually set your mind at east on this. First of all, being a sociopath isn't a matter of inheriting some of your traits from each parents, the way it works with genetics. As long as your mother was good and loved you, you can escape sociopathy entirely;
Second, most people don't have all that many people they'd sacrifice themselves for, if any. Most people pay far more lip service to love than they actually feel. As my brother observed after my sister died, it's only the immediate family who really cries. (And if you don't cry when your father dies, don't worry about it; that's only natural too, given his behavior.)
Third, if you don't hurt people, you're not a sociopath. That one piece of evidence is almost conclusive in itself.
And fourth, and maybe most telling, is that you actually worry about being a sociopath. No sociopath I've ever known would have worried about it. Their attitude was much more like, okay, so I am one, so what? What does it mean? It just means that I'm strong and the rest of the world is weak. So eff you.
I don't know you, so I can't say for sure, but the clues I got from your comment indicate you're not.
I have done as much research as I can to make sure the father of my child is in fact a sociopath. I almost feel helpless that I will sound as if I'm just paranoid if I explained to a judge everything I have been through and what I fear my daughter will experience and how she will be treated by her father in the future. I feel I come off if I'm crazy or controlling out of habit from being manipulated for so long. I read that a sociopath can even convince anyone in a court room because their ability to lie is perfected to a new audience. I even asked his family if it came down to it would they testify against him for our daughters sake. they said they'd have to think about it. My child's well being it not up for negotiation! Are they CRAZY?! How dare they support him through this. What does that make them besides enablers? He's stolen from me, left me in debt and left me in the dark about his substance abuse. I had no idea. He never showed any emotion when she was sick or got hurt. I would even find toothpicks under her face while she was napping when she was left in his care. He would leave many other hazardous things around. By his actions my concerns were obviously not a priority to him. His family was so concerned about our daughter being his they didn't bother telling me about who he is behind the scenes. Even though I choose not to speak to his family or him I still feel cheated by them. This is not how I wanted to bring a child into the world. Keeping up his charade of telling me what I want to hear to keep me interested was like his full time job and an act. A good one at that. Until I caught on. No telling how many other things he's done that I don't know about. If he'd ever molested her or sexually abused her while were together in the past how would I know? The thought makes me sick to my stomach. I practically did all the diaper changes and don't recall seeing anything out of the ordinary. What are signs? The thought of him ever being left alone with her is a mistake and an accident waiting to happen. Clearly this isn't the kind of father figure she needs or any child for that matter. How do I assure she will be safe if I have to follow visitation? I don't have money for an attorney to modify our court order. Legal aid takes too long and so do other free organizations. I can only pray so much that he doesn't bother us. He needs to be diagnosed or institutionalized and taken off the street.
Anon --
Hi, you left the same message twice, once with a name attached, the second time anonymously; I'm assuming you preferred to have the anonymous version of your comment posted.
I think you'll find that judges tend to be much better versed in sociopathy than the general public. My advice would be to refrain from calling your daughter's father a sociopath, but to merely describe the actions that led you to that conclusion, and let the judge draw his own conclusions. If you say he's a sociopath you're in effect setting yourself up as an expert witness, which the judge may interpret as presumptuous on your part, even if you're right. So just describe your ex's behavior, with evidence if possible; that should do the trick. BTW, I would also steer away from talking about your fears (what if he molested her?) because a fear will not hold sway in court. Just stick to the facts (toothpicks under her face, etc) and that should be enough.
This was very interesting to read and as the child of a psychopath/sociopath I understand many of the concerned comments from the parents on here.
Honestly, as long as there is one parent that truly loves them, your children will be okay!
My father used to constantly manipulate and berate my sister and I. He never smiled unless he was ridiculuing us and he had a horrific temper.
He also constantly made us empty promises and "sweet talked" us into moving back in with him when we were younger (after my parents seperated). We never praised or shown love and we were only really used to get back at my mum because she left him (he made us visit an accused sexual predator because he knew it would get at her. Thankfully we were never harmed!)
Also the only time we were bought any presents was to outdo when my mum had done so. He knew that she couldn't afford much and he would make her feel bad about it.
But, my mum was an amazing lady.
She wanted us to never see him but let us make the desicion and she enstilled in us NEVER to make contact again.
He has stalked us, sent out private investigators and even sent people to scope out the house, but we've never retaliated.
I've had therapy and honestly I now feel as much as he ever felt towards me, nothing!
Parents, as long as you try to help your children, love them, cuddle thema nd be honest with them they will be okay!
Sometimes their confidence can be really affected by their sociopath parent, but you can fix it, and they'll be fine!
I know live with my boyfriend in a healthy, happy relationship, I'm getting my university degree and I'm truly happy!
My advice would be to cut off contact and never look back and if your child seems to need therapy, let them decide if and when they're ready :)
Anon --
Thank you for that excellent description of a sociopath and for the reassuring words for children of a sociopath.
I'm pretty sure my ex was a sociopath... He was a fisherman and worked with his two cousins on a trapping boat, one time when he was out at sea I suffered a horrific miscarriage. I lost liters of blood. I didn't know anyone I the area as I had just moved there. I had an ambulance take me to the hospital and the nurses had to look after my one year old daughter, while I was in surgery. I had gone into shock, had blood transfusions... The next day, he was supposed to be home from sea though and I thought after such a terrible event he would have to help me out and support me for a change. But I was wrong and when I was released, he refused to take the day off work and said he had to unload, when I got home he tried to offer as a nice gesture to look after our daughter while I cleaned my blood off the floor. Te next morning he woke me up at five to make the babies bottle and I lost it and called the police, I felt I was going crazy and had no family or friends for support. They treated me like i was crazy too. Then he got on the phone to his cousin to talk about how bad I was for doing that to him. He disappeared for hours that day and came back with nothing to say. Just hateful stares. Looking at me as if I weren't good enough and I looked terrible. Then he tried to sleep with me. I didn't do it of course. He would always have outbursts, crazy ones, would always lie and seem suspicious with nearly everything. He could never hold down a job, keep up with bills, just blew everything on the most useless stuff even if it meant his daughter go without. He always seemed like such a nice guy and so helpful to people who didn't know him. Think he loved the praise. But I came to realize that everyone close to him had no real respect for him. He wouldn't buy his daughter birthday presents and basic things even though he made a lot of money. Tried to tell everyone she wasnt his daughter and when I offered a DNA test for his peace of mind he brushed the idea off... I know what that crazy feeling feels like. It took me a few years not to blame myself for not being good enough. Now I have a great life. And soon he will be in jail because he thought he was too good too smart he could get away with ripping off the system and not pay any bills... Karma serves it purpose to these peoples demise eventually. But it will never be their fault in their minds. Pathological lying and denial of everything in life.
You phoned the police because he woke you up to make the baby's bottle?
I'm going to withhold judgment on this one.
Sorry I didn't explain properly. He woke me at 5am to make babies bottle, and I admit I was pissed off and had an attitude because of this, but then he start to flip out and was yelling at me that I should be doing it a certain way and the fight would always end up being about something completely different from what we initially were arguing about to the point where he would be standing over me yelling and pointing his finger in my face. That's when I became overwhelmed and called the police. It was a crazy thing to do, but I was so weak and thought that normal people would feel like they should support their partner not despise them in an extreme situation. He was always bad all the time but I thought this was an extreme where a person should be there for you no matter if you usually fight or get along great. If it happened to my sister I would re act only with support toward her until she recovered...? Do you think I'm crazy?
I don't know. Most people don't phone the police unless they've been physically hurt or at least threatened, not just yelled at. And from what you've said, he didn't ever hurt you physically.
He sounds like an irresponsible louse, but the way you're rejoicing at the fact that he's about to go to jail, you sound pretty vindictive yourself.
HI. I posted earlier about my two older half-sisters who have sociopath traits. Sociopaths share certain characteristics, but of course no two sociopaths are alike. Duh! Just like the rest of us, they have their own distinct personalities. I will reiterate what I KNOW to be true, and that is that the CAN LOVE A LIMITED FEW - namely themselves first and foremost and perhaps their "possessions" or their children. AND NO, not all sociopaths love their kids. I am saying that some do. I used the Wicked stepmother in Cinderella as an excellent example. Another would be Richard Kuklinski, an infamous mafia hitman. if you know his life story, you will know that the man was BONAFIDE sociopath AND that he dearly love his wife and kids and he has stated more than once that those were the ONLY people that he ever cared for. Look him up and watch his interviews on youtube and you will see for yourself. I say this proves my point!
Anon --
You're right, of course, no two sociopaths are alike. And they are loyal to their children to varying degrees. But even with a case like Kuklinski, whose story I am familiar with (I have seen those videos on Youtube), I wouldn't say that they love their children in quite the same way that normal people do. They are often fiercely loyal to their kids, and will side with them no matter what, but it's not quite the same quality of love that a normal parent will give, simply because they're not capable of it. With a lot of them, it seems to be partly a matter of self-image, i.e., I'm a good person because I'm a good parent, so they do what they think a good parent would do. But it's just not quite the same. (No matter how much they claim to love their children.) Sorry, I have to disagree with you -- slightly -- here.
My ex just remarried and now has two step sons. Our son is 18months old on the 25th.....I am just learning all I can about these sociopath people. This man kicked us out when I was 14weeks pregnant and told me he never wanted me, just baby. He knew my biggest fear was to be a single mom...he made it happen. He tried impregnating two other women before me....and he has two other grown children from his first marriage. He is just now married for the forth time.
OMG! Your story has so many similar traits as my story!
Anon --
Being married that many times is certainly a yellow flag for sociopathy. And kicking a 14-week pregnant woman out of her home is probably a red flag.
John Craig...I am back again (the person with the two sociopathic half-sisters). Sociopaths' love for their kids is a selfish love. They also tend to live through them vicariously (I mean SOME of them - the ones that love their kids). I am also very familiar with Kuklinski after having seen all of his interviews and listened to the complete audibook about his life by Phillip Carlo. Sociopaths see their "loved ones" (the ones who have any capacity to love) as objects or possessions. They don't love them for the unique individual that they are. They love them because they "belong" to them. And like we said, not all of them love their kids. Some even go so far as to seriously harm or even kill their kids (like Susan Smith). I wanted to say, though, that Wanda Holloway is another good example of a sociopath. She APPARENTLY loved her daughter so much that she wanted to kill her child's friend and cheerleading rival over a spot on the cheerleading team. I stressed the word "apparently" because her actions were selfish. She didn't really want to kill the girl (or her the girls mother) because of her daughter but more so for herself. Wanda was bitter over her own unfulfilled dreams and attempted to live vicariously through her daughter. And Wanda Holloway was sociopathic in the sense that she didn't care about who she hurt, killed, or whose lives she ruined. It was all about her and what she wanted. She would do anything to have her way - just like a sociopath would.
Anon --
Those are all great examples, and you are spot on in your analysis. Susan Smith and the Texas Cheerleader Mom are both sociopathic mothers who expressed their sociopathy in different ways.
Thank you! I wrote the above comment about Wanda Holloway. I thought that was the perfect example of a sociopath who loved their child. Yes, they are all different. I think their must be different "degrees" of sociopathy...that is a big mystery/question mark.
To whoever.said they "used to be a sociopath" your an idiot. Nothing but a fool. You can't simply just start feeling emotions after never having them. And to answer your question. I have a strange love for my kids but often times I see them as nothing more than inconvenience. I will most likely do anything to anyone thar hurt them but it is hard do deal with having children and knowing you love them when you can't even love yourself.
I have 2 children with someone I believe is a sociopath. I think he has some sort of love for his children, but the minute they stop giving him 100% reverence he snaps. For example, the 3 year old doesn't like going to visit him and often tells him so and in retaliation he tells her he doesn't like her any more and is never coming to pick her up again and is giving all of her toys and room away at his house. Another time he actually stopped the car in the road and told her to walk home. He later confirmed he did this, laughing the whole time. The baby cries having to go with him and he pushes her away and says I don't like you any more and laughs. He does take them to do things, but it's more for appearance than an actual want to see his children have fun. For example, he takes them to a nearby beach without bathing suits, for 10 minutes so they can stick their feet in the water and he can take pictures and say he "took the kids to the beach".
Anon --
Those behaviors are all pretty low. I can't say for sure but he certainly sounds as if he could be a sociopath.
I am 50.lived with a man for 27 years.DIdn't even know there was such a thing to describe who he is.Cause I sure don't know this evil person.2 and a half years ago I found out what he i s really all about.The lies do not stop the mental abuse emotional abuse physical abuse it does not stop. Why can't I leave the person who has ruined my life? Who spits in my face at a whim who whispers stupid bitch dumb cunt to me when he thinks I am sleeping? I do not know who I am . I used to be excited about my life. I can not concentrate on anything any more. I bounce from this to that. Nothing gets done. Everyone tells me to leave him. Don't know how. Just me living in the twilight zone.Ronnie
Ronnie --
You know what you have to do. Do it.
Just seen that comment from the "former sociopath", written 30/11/12. I agree with you: there is no such thing as a former sociopath. Sociopathy has a neurological basis, where the amygdala is faulty. The amygdala is the part of the brain that elicits fear, causing mammals to instinctively know when something is wrong and that they should exit the situation right away. The absence of fear is precisely what causes sociopaths to disregard the notion that they may be caught and punished: all they think of is precisely what goes on right now, this very minute. This is why they need constant stimulation, are prone to boredom, are typically unreliable, and are able to commit the most horrific crimes without fearing retribution. To say that one can be spontaneously cured of this ignores scientific fact - one would need brain surgery for that, which is currently unavailable.
Like you wrote, sociopaths can change their behaviour, but not their overall character. It's a bit like children "growing out of" their autism diagnosis. If a child "grows out of" autism, then they never had it in the first place: they were misdiagnosed. An autistic can learn some social skills by being formally taught (sometimes to the point where they can intermittently pass as normal), but they cannot completely get rid of their condition because it has a biological basis. Sooner or later, they will probably say something inappropriate that betrays their condition, much like a sociopath will eventually not be able to resist doing something callously self-serving. Hervey Cleckley mentions cases in his 'Mask of Sanity' of sociopaths trying very hard to behave normally, but then doing something foolish at the spur of the moment. No sociopath can "grow out of" or recover from this. The above poster probably had Borderline Personality Disorder rather than sociopathy, which can also cause people to be manipulative, the difference being that Borderlines can recover.
Gethin
Gethin -
What country are you from? (Americans refer to 11/30/12, you referred to 30/11/12.)
You just gave a great description and analysis of one cause of sociopathy, but there are others as well. A lot of people -- including me -- think that sociopathy is mostly caused by the lack of a bond with another human being before age one or two. But that, too, cannot be undone; if you haven't bonded by that age, no matter how nice people are to you afterward, you won't have the same set of emotions and bonding ability that a normal (nonsociopathic) person has. And you're right, a sociopath's mask will always slip eventually,, no matter how careful they are about keeping it on.
I'm from Wales, UK. We always write dates in chronological order here - day, month then year. AFAIK, writing it as month, day, year is a North American thing - Europeans all use the chronological order, as do most Asians, Australasians, Africans and South Americans. The Chinese and Japanese use the order of year, month then day.
Gethin --
Aha, thank you. I'd figured it was Europe somewhere, just curious where. I guess the UK makes sense given your command of the language.
I'd thought I was a quarter Welsh until I took that Ancestry.com test.
My Ex is a sociopath. We have 2 children together. He is a charmer and can convince almost anyone that he's got it all going on. I eventually saw the light and once I was tired of his controlling behavior, lack of empathy towards me and the kids, reckless spending and unrealistic lifestyle, lying, impulsive behavior and that he was always in the right no matter what I got the courage to finally leave and went to stay with my mom. I was always afraid to leave because of "the wrath" that I knew would come if I did. Once I left, he took over our home, changed the locks and thought he could do whatever he wanted with no consequence and I would just stick around. I then got an attorney because I knew what he was capable of, and filed for divorce. This enraged him. He proceeded to get an attorney, then went on a mission to try and get full custody of our children by making up so many lies about me. He said I hit our kids, hit him and I was an alcoholic. None of this is remotely true. Mind you I've never been arrested, but he has for drugs in the past. All he cared was getting back at me, not the best interest of our children, only his. So I made it my mission to not let him win and he didn't. I went as far as to request the courts do a psych evaluation to determine I was in fact the competent parent. It was going to cost $5000 dollars on top of all my attorney bills, and once I told him that the evaluator would determine he's a sociopath, he decided to drop everything and settle. I went along with it thinking he finally was doing the right thing, I also thought I was doing the right thing by keeping them with both their parents equally. I am seeing this is not the case and it breaks my heart for the kids. He uses them as his pawns to try and manipulate, harass and control me but I won't allow it. But I wonder what it's like for my kids the weeks he's with them. If it's anything like it was when we were together, it's not good. We can't Co-parent because he's so difficult and immature to deal with. I do all communication via email so I don't have to deal with him and so I have proof of his badgering way in case we have to go back to court, which I think is coming. I love my kids so much and want to protect them from his self-imposing ways. It's frustrating, emotionally and physically exhausting but it's my mission now to protect them from him. They deserve the best and I will give everything in my power to provide that.
Anon --
Based on what you say, your ex is definitely a sociopath. You've listed practically every single criterion for the disorder. Well, you've done the right thing by leaving him, it's just too bad he still has so much influence on the kids. Best of luck.
So I have a 10year old son who is amazing smart sweet kind and just all around great kid . I am a social path. My son tells me why can't I love him. And that he really tries to make me happy with helping around the house his school work and he just wishes he can make me happy. I somehow know why I can't share emotion but wish I could. Am I the only one. Lemme know!
Anon --
I"m not sure that your comment is serious, but here goes. First of all, most 10-year-olds with a sociopathic parent would not be entirely aware that that parent doesn't love them, as the sociopath would be more likely to fake some kind of love. Secondly, most sociopaths would not be concerned with whether or not they truly loved their children, as you claim you are. Thirdly, most sociopaths would not bring up a child who is amazingly sweet, smart, and kind. Fourthly, anybody who actually was a sociopath would know that that's how yo spell it, not "social path." So I'm guessing your comment is a put on.
Very interesting blog, and the comments even more so. I recently ended an 18 month relationship with a sociopath. To say it was complicated would be an understatement. As I have learned more about the traits of a sociopath, I see our relationship in a whole new light.
He is my polar opposite. I knew that from the beginning. He embodies NOTHING that I find attractive in a man. He is broke, he has a son, he dropped out of high school, he smokes pot on a daily basis, his income is from handyman odd jobs, I could go on and on. But my gut told me to give him a chance. And after our second date, I knew that he was *The ONE*. When I realized it, I nearly threw up. Then I was giddy. Then I was scared. Then I started dry heaving. Finally, I was thrilled. I felt it in every cell of my body…I had found the man that I would spend the rest of my life with. Goodness…how wrong I was!
The beginning was intense. He texted all the time, he wanted to see me whenever he could. We didn’t go on lavish dates; he never once bought me a gift. Our time was spent talking and joking. It was a blast. After a month, it began. He would not communicate with me for several days. Then he would pop up again and act like nothing was wrong. We began to fight constantly. He was always busy..with his son, with work…he had no time to see me. Then he did have time, but he didn’t have any money for gas to get to see me. Thankfully, he never once asked for money…and I never offered. I told him over and over, that all I wanted was to see him a couple of times a week. I didn’t feel that I was asking too much. He promised me he would be better, that he would try harder. Sometimes he would, sometimes he wouldn’t. He infuriated me more than anyone else has in my life. I was nasty, hateful and mean to him. But he would always come back. I used to think that it was because he had deep feelings for me. Now I know otherwise.
There were red-flags everywhere. In the beginning, he had talked about trips to the lake, showing me off to his friends, BBQs, pool parties…none of it ever happened. He once said *As soon as you become mine, you will be mine anywhere I want you. In the car, in the woods, on the boat…I will rape you.* Once I told him a very touching story that sadly involved the passing of a 3 year old boy…but the ending has brought tears to the eyes of every single person I have shared this with. He looked at me with a blank stare, and didn’t say a word. He told me how controlling he was with his child’s mother. When she found out she was pregnant, he told me *I put her on a strict diet and exercise plan.* He used to tell her what to wear. He would take their son away from her if he didn’t like how she was acting. He lied to me about so many things. The most constant lie was about relatives being ill, or dying. I caught him in many of these lies, he would try to reason his way out of it…but I knew better. I believed that he did/said all of these things because he was young, dumb and immature. I truly thought in my heart that he was not REALLY like this…it was just all for show. And someday his real soul would shine through.
Part II
He told me that he was staying with a friend, though I was never allowed to see where he lived. I began to suspect that he lived with his ex, and even mentioned it a few times, and he denied it. Eventually he had blown me off one too many times, and I sent her a message through social media….telling her that I had been involved with him for nearly a year, and asked her point blank if they were still involved. Her answer *He lives in my house, and I pay his bills.* I was stunned. Shocked. I cried for days. My heart was shattered. I had trusted him so much, and he was living a double life.
A few months later, he came crawling back. I was terribly mean, told him to leave me alone. He wouldn’t. He kept begging. He just wanted to see me. It took nearly a month, and finally I caved. I saw him, he explained everything…that they were only together for the kid…the kid wanted it, and he will do anything for the kid…they don’t have sex…they can’t stand each other, but tolerate the situation for the kid…he’s sorry…he’s changed, he’s going to do all that he can to make me happy….blah blah blah. I bought it hook, line and sinker. The sex was amazing. It always had been. That was what I missed most about him. It was SO passionate. I told myself hundreds of times that our connection was real…because you just cannot fake that kind of passion. But soon the cycle began again….he would disappear and ignore me, I would get angry, we would bicker a bit, he would stay away longer so that I could *calm down*…we would make up, I would be nice, then the whole cycle would start over. It drained me. It was exhausting, and I wanted out. But every time I saw him, all the bad just faded away, and I was giddy just being able to touch him.
Just recently, I became explosive after he ignored me for nearly a week. I finally heard from him, he had all kinds of excuses. I told him that I did not like it when he ignored me. He apologized, and promised that he would try to be better. Eight hours later, he was ignoring me. Many texts followed over the next week…I told him I was done…I tried to talk to him…it was a mess. We had planned to get together one evening to hash things out. My intention was to end it with him, but not before he realized exactly what he was walking away from. That afternoon, he sent me a message on facebook. He was at the doctor, getting x-rays. Apparently he is not aware of the location finder on facebook messages, and I knew that he was sitting at home. He wanted to cancel that evening, and I lost it like I never had before. I threatened him, and told him that if he didn’t come to me, I would come to him. It was ugly. I finally just gave up. I wanted to destroy his life…but I just don’t have that in me.
Part III
I know that was long, but I just wanted to show that he very clearly is in fact a sociopath. I feel much pain, and sadness…but I am a strong woman, and I will survive. I am extremely thankful that I got out without losing too much. I cringe to think what my life would have turned into had I ever gotten pregnant by him. Though I clearly (and selfishly) wasn’t concerned for her at the time….my heart now aches for the woman he has a child with. The hell that woman has endured at his hand is unimaginable. I believe that the only reasons he is still with her are that she puts a roof over his head, and she is easily controlled by him. I’ve questioned many times if he truly loves his son. I used to think that he did. Now I believe that the child is nothing more than a pawn to keep the mother around. He uses the child to control her, and get everything he wants. He has threatened her repeatedly that he will take the child away from her forever if she doesn’t behave the way he wants her to. The child is also an extension of himself. He gets everything he wants. He’s five, and he has a brand-new 4-wheeler. Not a toy. I am so incredibly sad for the child and his mother…and I just pray that someday she sees this man for who he really is, and gets out….especially before there is any long-term damage to the boy. I believe that she really and truly loves her son, shows him a great deal of affection…and that is probably the only saving grace for him.
Elizabeth --
I can't possibly do justice to your story, but I'll make a few points about how it was a classic relationship with a sociopath. First, you were extremely taken with him, before disillusionment set in; he must have a sociopathic level of charm, given that he doesn't have the resume you desire. Second, even when you began to discover the lies, you made excuses for him; this is also a typical pattern. Third, he was very exploitative; he used the mother of his child for money and a place to stay, and used the child to control her. Fourth, now that you've experienced a sociopath up close and personal, you'll be on the lookout for them in the future, possibly even to the extent of suspecting non sociopaths of being sociopaths. (I'd caution you against that; it's good to be able to recognize sociopaths, but too many people, once they've been burned, put up a guard that's TOO high.
Anyway, sorry for your disillusionment, but join the club: most everybody who writes comments on this post has been burned by a sociopath. We're all older and wiser now.
my ex use to hide money from me never giving me any house keeping , he use to blame me for everything .even went to the lengths of blaming me for his other childern growing up he was very sly secretive devious he never gave me any reason to think i was in a loving relationship with him he always had other motives lied to me continously even when there was no need ,
Anon --
Sure doesn't sound like Mr. Right.
Wow, im starting to get worried!!! I have an inability to feel love, and well, most things. My grandma was recently in a horrific accident and I felt nothing! Obviously I faked the emotions to comfort my family and not look so cold hearted, but after looking on the internet for an answer to my inability to feel, I truly believe I am a sociopath. Im going for a professional diagnosis next week, but I am very worried at my lack of conscience and guilt! I dont suppose I really love anybody either...but I certainly don't want to HURT anyone!!! I sometimes manipulate people to get what I want, but doesn'teveryone? Anyway, if I really am a sociopath, I dont plan on spreading it around, people will judgeand think me violent!!!!
Anon --
Not sure whether you're being serious, but on the off chance you are, one thing I've noticed over the years is that sociopaths never WORRY about the fact that they're sociopaths. So if you're actually fretting about this, chances are you aren't one.
Hi. For over two years, I've searched for answers to what entered my life. Sociopath has been the best description for who I will call Mr. T. He is in his 50s with two children 17 and 21. Tome, he calls them "little bastards" and claims his ex-wife was on drugs and that's why he obtained custody since they were small. He also says that they were not his plan and he just did what he had to do.
When I met him, I was attracted to him physically, his confidence, and ironically, his lack of interest in me. The rest of the story is a waste. Early on he admitted that he had some social anxiety. He would string me on, acting like he was totally in love in my presence, but went icy cold the next second. He would not call for days or weeks and act like this was absolutely normal. I fell in love for the first time as an adult with this shell. He would tell me stories of others, but now I believe they were descriptions of himself. We have never had sex, but have come close a few times. He appeared very nervous. He also appeared to be more interested or comfortable with grabbing my throat (not choking, but a firm hold) than touching me. The one time that he was all in for having sex was when I was pretty intoxicated, but I asked him what we would be if I shared myself with him. He mumbled something about marriage. Whenever I tried to communicate about this or anything related to a relationship below a very surface level, he could never commit or get angry and ask why I couldn't live in the moment.
The other red flags included how he felt he was better than others, no empathy for others, his need for alcohol, risk taker (motorcycles/racing), negative talk about his mother, and classic, his inability to relate to emotions. Before I even knew how to define him, I found myself trying to "teach a blind man to see" as far as trying to get him to be able to relate or understand emotions. I tried with music and I tried with colors. The last time we were together, I talked to him about therapy and he said that I was helping him. At that time, he did open up with concern that he may have msde his daughter a lesbian (which she is not). However, in the last year, his son shared that he is gay and Mr. T acts like it's a disgrace. From his expression of concern if he has made his daughter a lesbian, is the first time I've ever heard him act like he is human and deeper than surface.
He is a handsome professional that from the outside, has it all together. However, he's never satisfied or content. I've read so much to let me know that I was just a game piece for him and I've learned a lot. At times, I feel quite human and think he's the devil. While majority of the time, I want to help him because that's who I am. Not wanting him as a partner now only because it's impossible, but wanting to show him some light to what appears to be a curse.
Anon --
Some of the thing you describe make him sound like a sociopath, but some, like the inability to relate, make him sound as if he has Aspergers. It also sounds as if he might be gay himself. Only advice I can give you is, he's far more trouble than he's worth. It's time to look elsewhere.
Thanks John. I did him last week if he was gay and he said it seems to run in the family, doesn't it? So all of his ambiguousness and icy behavior could have been a camouflage, but there's definitely some other condition because he often would say that people describe him as subhuman. Either way, you're right, time to move on. Thanks again.
Anon --
I didn't give you much advice, but you're welcome.
The fact that he was projecting homosexuality onto his daughter combined with the fact that he never made a move on you made it seem as if he might be gay.
It's good you're moving on.
So, I'm convinced that I've got myself involved with a sociopath! When i met him things progressed very quickly, he began telling me ge loved me before he even really knew much about me and i became emotionally involved. He definitely knew all the right things to say. When we first got together he told me he was in a previous marriage and he had been divorced and onlu had one child (lies ) . Months went by and he started to reveal that he indeed had 5 kids. Our whole relationship all he did was pressure me to get pregnant, he also was very jealous and possessive and told me when i did get pregnant that nobody would want me so young with three so i should never burn my bridge with him. He left immediately after confirmation that i was indeed pregnant and i recently found out that this is something he does often and this will be his 7th child. What really concerns me is he ignored me the whole 7 months of my pregnancy and came back to work it out just to play head games. Now he says things like "we don't have anything to talk about, call me when the baby is born" that alone tears me apart but him ignoring me is also bothersome. It sickens me that he targets young women and manipulates them. I'll text him things that would bother normal people and he'll just ignore them. It's like he's emotionless. He is very jealous as i mentioned before and threatens that he'll hurt me if i ever mess around on him, but never has disrespected me or called me out my name. Very strange
Anon --
Sounds to me as if your analysis is correct. The lies, the manipulation, the negative emotions but lack of any positive ones, the fact that he seems to have very little contact with any of his children, all add up to sociopathy. It also sounds as if you still have to get over him.
My advice: read up on sociopathy, that will help you get over him. Once you're fully aware of what a monster he is, you won't want anything to do with him, other than getting whatever money you can from him, which will be whatever the courts decide. Good luck with that.
Sorry to be so harsh, but the picture you've drawn leads to no other conclusions.
Hugs
You call us monsters john but you yourself sound like a narcissistic know it all, why else would you write about sociopaths unless you got a buzz of reading about other peoples sad stories lol? What can I say apart from most of the most us successful people including your own governments are sociopaths. They can cope with making decistions that hurt people were as your little mind would send you into a break down. well said about the kids, I protect mine and provide for them and reward there sucess they are my future blood which reflects on me, one last thing about us.... the stupid ones are easy to spot like the ones in some peoples stories, the smart ones arent and its normally to late if you ever find out because dont forget we will do anything to protect ourselfs
Anonymous sociopath --
I actually don't get a buzz out of reading sad stories; there are plenty in the paper every day, and most just leave me cold. I do like the way you use "narcissistic" as an insult though, given that all sociopaths are narcissistic.
I wouldn't say the most successful people are sociopaths, although there are plenty of sociopaths who fly high (and many of those end up crashing and burning).
I agree, the smarter sociopaths are generally harder to spot. My guess is, you're probably fairly easy to spot for those who understand sociopathy and know you well, though I also wouldn't doubt that you've hoodwinked plenty of people in your time.
Thanks for the comment though, I get a lot from Aspies but very few from self-admitted sociopaths.
It wasn't a insult. Your guessing about me shows you are narcissistic, or just really over confident in your very limited knowledge on thick sociopathic. Fact of the matter is you will never meet a high level sociopath in your life. I own a small double glazing firm in the uk imploying 20 people. To get where I am today I ruined peoples lifes for my personal gain most of them didn't and still don't know it was me, crime does go hand in hand with sociopaths. The smart ones get a buzz off making alot of money ruining peoples lifes on a bigger scale while enjoying life, the r#tar#ds drive there kids of a cliff or start shooting people. And your right alot of the smart ones will crash and burn but they normally bring down alot of people with them. Dont think you can spot a smart sociopath because unless you monitor one for a week 24 hours aday john you will never beable to
Lots of love my friend ..... just joking there lol
Anonymous sociopath --
Calling someone a "narcissistic know-it-all" isn't an insult? I'd hate to hear what you consider an insult.
You seem to think you know a lot about me. I went to Harvard, and worked at Goldman Sachs, so I've met plenty of smart sociopaths. And with them, as with the dumb ones, yes, you have to get more than a snapshot of their behavior to know what they are. But once you see them for an extended period, it's impossible of them to hide their character. No matter how smart they are, their sociopathy renders them dumb in a number of ways. It gives them away through their unbridled egotism, their glee at others' misfortune (as you say), their dishonesty, their disloyalty, and their thinking they're fooling people when they're not.
Bill Clinton is a perfect example of a high-powered, smart sociopath. Take a look at this post for an analysis of what gives him away:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2010/08/sociopath-alert-bill-clinton.html
By the way, laughing at your own jokes is a sure sign of narcissism, and "lol"-ing your own jokes is another dead giveaway.
Okay, I've been diagnosed as a sociopath since I was nine, I didn't go into much therapy because I was always smarter than my therapist. Brief story, I have three siblings and my two parents. One of those siblings is a sister who I don't really interact much because I wish not to hurt her (she's an empath) . But she married a narcissist against my parents will. When I found out he was abusing her I absolutely went out of my way and DESTROYED him and every person he cares about. After the divorce was over She gave birth to a baby girl that I actually care about. I feel that a sociopath can't actually love normally but we can care and protect.
Anon --
That's actually a credible story, apart from having been diagnosed as a sociopath since you were nine (most psychologists or psychiatrists are unwilling to give that diagnosis until someone is at least 16).
But otherwise, your analysis of yourself and your actions actually all rings true.
I have been separated from my husband, who I believe to be a sociopath, for about 6 months. I have initiated divorce this week. The first three years of our relationship seemed magical aside from what we thought was severe depression and ADD for him - and anything that raised a red flag I attributed to him being an immature college student who could grow up eventually.
I should mention that my husband was called Eddie Haskell as a child - he is stunningly gorgeous, charming, is intelligent, and calls himself a social chameleon. Once he moved in, here are some of the lies and even criminal behavior that I learned to tolerate and even blame on myself:
1. He once disappeared for 3 days claiming he was in a hospital undergoing brain scans for cancerous lesions. I later learned he had wanted to "binge," which meant marijuana, video games, and junk food in an Internet cafe for the duration of his absence. He blamed me and his family, stating that all of our free radicals and cornering him had given him cancer. 2. He lied several times that he could not go on family vacations because he had to work. He blamed me, saying that it was my fault we never went anywhere he wanted, and that he didn't want to travel with a crying baby (his baby). 3. He had accrued several thousand dollars in debt on hidden credit cards for live porn sites. When I confronted him, he blamed me - it was my fault, because he had given up the best years of his young adult life for a monogamous relationship with ugly and boring me. 4. He once stole several thousand dollars in computer equipment before getting fired from a job the next day. Why? Because they made him buy orange juice, which he said "is the secretary's job." 5. He has been on and off of dating sites like Tinder, where he lures girls in by telling them he is an off-Broadway producer, VP of a Forbes 500, Bikram yoga instructor, etc. When I confront him, he says "I can't help I'm ashamed that I want to have meaningless sex with sluts," and "everyone on there is fake anyways."
Needless to say these lies only seemed to affect our romantic relationship, but as time went on, things got worse - especially once I finished my PhD, took a job at an Ivy League School, and did not need him to raise our baby.
I separated from him this past May after discovering a secret file in his email with pictures of my 12 year old daughter sleeping in a tank top and panties, and photos of her nude in the shower. When I asked, he first tried to lie and say it wasn't her - that it was a former student of his that had come to our home to have sex with him, and that she had put on my daughter's clothes thinking they were mine so that she could "play his wife for a day." My daughter has a very distinct scar on her left thigh - when I pointed this out, he finally admitted that it was her, but that there was no harm in what he had done because she wasn't aware of it. He also said it wasn't pedophilia because she is an adolescent (and promptly gave me whatever the technical term is for tween pornography). Let me add that the police would do nothing in this case because my daughter wasn't aware of the photos, so they claimed I could have taken the photographs and uploaded them to his email to sabotage him (and, by the way, that it is illegal for me to access my husband's email, even if he has given me the passwords).
Part II: That same week, after I kicked him out, I discovered dealer amounts of marijuana in my trunk of my car and my bedroom closet I called the cops. Again the same thing - marijuana is decriminalized in NYC so the cops would do nothing in my home, but yet if I got caught driving the vehicle with the drugs I woudl be arrested and my children taken from me. When I confronted my husband about this, again the same thing - I should not interfere with his business because me and my kids would get "clipped" (and it would be my fault if my kids died), and also that he was doing all of this dealing for our family...and that I had now ruined his business.
Then it again became about how by age 26 he was supposed to be rich, own his own home, have a much hotter wife...yet I had castrated and emasculated him, destroyed his business...etc.
The final straw was that I was going out of town with my children for a week and he had agreed to watch the family dog at his house while we were away. Literally 3 hours before I had to leave (a Saturday morning at 6 am), he announced that he would not take the dog unless I paid him $500 in cash on spot...and that the cost would go up an additional $150 a day. Keep in mind that this is HIS dog that HE rescued in college - I begged him as I had no money in the account - yet he walked back to the train station and left the dog tied to my car tire. I was able to find a no-kill shelter on the way to the airport and had to surrender our dog of 8 years. The kids and I remain devastated.
Part III
Two weeks ago I came into my parking lot and the car was stolen. I texted him that my vehicle better be back in the parking lot by 7 pm or I would call the cops. I get a text from him at 6 pm stating that he was arrested in NYC for driving with a suspended driver's license and that the vehicle had been impounded and he was in a holding cell. He said I would get a call the next day to make an electronic bail payment for $10K, and then he would be released and bring my car back to me.
Obviously I wasn't falling for yet another poorly crafted, grandiose lie. I called all the precincts, central booking, checked for my vehicle online - all lies, except that the car did have almost $1K in judgments due to unpaid parking tickets he had accrued when he had stolen my vehicle on a past occasion.
I reported the car stolen and notified him - but meanwhile was in a panic as our 18 month old had no other way to get to school. I missed 3 days of work to care for our baby, texting him "how can you do this to your own son?"
In response, I get a text after the 4th day that our son has nothing to do with it and this is all my fault for ruining his credit and the best years of his life wasted on me, ruining his business, leaving him without a vehicle, etc. The text included a picture of the car with a boot on the tire. He claimed that he had gotten booted the previous week, and that he had been selling everything to get it out of boot and had lied to me about getting arrested just so I would leave him alone. He claimed he had taken the day off of work so that he could go get the car and bring it back to me. So again I have to verify the lies - I enlarge the photo, and I also check online on the NYC gov site - and you can see the car was only booted that morning. I then call his work and ask for him, and they forward me directly to his line where he of course picks up. It's always lies - and always very poorly told lies.
I should also add that during this same period of the vehicle missing, he had been offered a job at a premier private high school. He refused the job and wrote the director a nasty letter because they only offered him $45K (just $5K than he makes now) - how dare they do that when they are private and have so much money!
The situation seems never ending. I have a fake profile on his Facebook account and I can see him adding all kinds of young, pretty college girls to his page. He works in a middle school and always coaches the girls' soccer team and works with girls on STEM.
So a few questions:
1. Is this man a sociopath - going back all the way to his Eddie Haskell childhood days?
2. My psychiatrist says the hope is that he will change and mature over time, and one day maybe be a father to his son. Is that realistically possible? He's 26 and seems to be getting worse.
3. What do I tell my son as he gets older and wants to know his dad? To anyone who knows this situation, they think I am on drugs when I tell them what's going on. I am the one who looks strung out, neurotic, etc., while he carries on with his good looks and charm. Will he fool my son? What do I tell my son?
4. Most important - for myself, this is my third serious and failed relationship. The first I was only 20 and an immature and selfish brat. The second was a misfortune of the 9-11 events. This time I really tried - I took years to get to know him (I thought) before he moved in. yet I was warned - what would a man in college want to do with a woman 12 years older with 2 kids? I am working on my own issues of what I assume are co-dependency...but just utterly devasted. Every therapist, friend, family member says the same cruel statement: You're so successful with a PhD, Ivy League jobs, you are an amazing mother...how do you end up with such trash? How did you let him go on so long and do all this horrible stuff to you and your children? The guilt (which I've dealt with in therapy for years even before this horrible man came into it) is literally eating me alive.
Thanks for your help,
Dhumanist --
I got your first comment first and responded to that thinking it was simply another account of an attempted relationship with a sociopath, hadn't realized you were leading up to asking several questions.
Okay, in order:
1. Yes, he is unquestionably a sociopath. A lot of the literature on the subject says you're not supposed to call someone a sociopath until they're 18 or at least 16, but my opinion is that these people's personalities were basically formed very early on, so they were at the very least sociopaths-in-the-making if not outright sociopaths, even as 8- or 10-year-olds. So, yes, he was always basically a sociopath.
The two surest signs of sociopathy are (A) serial killing and (B) "pathological" lying. Your husband does the latter, and in very destructive ways. He is also without shame (it didn't sound as if reacted guiltily when caught with pictures of your naked daughter), another sure sign.
2. I can't believe your psychiatrist has so little knowledge of sociopathy that s/he would say your husband will change and mature. Sorry, but there is absolutely no chance of that.
3. Tell your son the truth. That's really the only thing you can do. Otherwise your soon-to-be-ex, being a skillful manipulator as all sociopaths are, will try to turn him against you. If your son insists that he wants to get to know his father (which is only natural), try to get as much supervision on the visits as you can, and warn him ahead of time about what his father is like. All you have to do is tell him the stories you've just related here, that should be enough. Also, apart from what you tell your children about their father, do your best to make sure the they understand the concept of sociopathy. You have to do this, because I can promise you that he will try to turn them against you.
4. First of all, bear in mind that all relationships that are not current are by definition failed relationships; that's just the nature of the game. You're mature enough to take the blame for your first failed (serious) one. (I'm not sure how 9/11 could have caused the failure of the second, though.) And as far as this one, I'm sorry, but there's never any hope for a relationship with a sociopath. It will always just be more of the same. More likes, more abuse, more heartache.
In fact, one of the lessons we all learn in marriage, and this includes the great majority of marriages (which are to non-sociopaths), is that nobody ever changes. If you go into marriage thinking you can change your spouse, you're fighting an extremely uphill battle.
No offense, but I'm almost tempted to say the same thing to you that your friends and therapists are saying. But I can't really throw stones, as I was fooled by once early on too. Please take a look at this post:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/08/how-i-became-interested-in-sociopathy.html
You're obviously an intelligent woman, and it sounds to me as if you already know what you've gotten yourself into and you just want someone who understands sociopathy to confirm it to you. Well, I do understand sociopaths, and I'm telling you what you basically already know that you have to do: divorce him and keep contact with him to a minimum in the future, it's all you can do. It's unfortunate, it's messy, and there's no easy solution given that he will want contact with the children in the future (and the kids may want some contact too, at least until they get to know him) and you won't be able cut that off entirely. But, do the best you can, and move on. A bad relationship with a sociopath is not worth trying to salvage, and that would in fact be an impossible task anyway.
Good luck.
Dear John (if I may),
Thank you so much for this detailed response. I'm especially grateful for the feedback about my baby - I hope he will believe what his older sister, brother, his father's family, and I tell him. Combined with supervised visitation (if his father ever takes it, which he hasn't so far), I imagine it will be easier for the baby to understand once he's older.
I also wanted to clarify the 9-11 event: my older kids come from a 9-year relationship that ended because my partner was in the WTC when the plane crashed into it. He survived, but refused to go to therapy, and basically became a recluse. We remain close friends and spend holidays together, so I can't say it was a failure, you're right!
Thanks also for sharing your story. I'm less concerned about appearing foolish or stupid, and more trying to plan for the future. It's true they have a lizardy smile. He did not express regret about photographing my daughter (his stepdaughter) until weeks later. He expressed regret as "that wasn't the real me," "that's all in the past now," "it's a shame I added to all the damage her father has caused her." - so not really remorse.
He compartementalized too - told me his family cut him off for marrying someone 12 years old (me), to his family I forced him to give them up when he moved to NY from CA. AFter I got pregnant, his family and I reunited. His mother still cries - they haven't spoken with their son in 6 years in spite of sending him gifts, calling, etc. He is avoidant once someone knows the truth about him.
Two more things I want to ask - the therapists have suggested that his substance abuse of sativa has further triggered the behaviors. Does rehab help these people or do they simply find other indulgences (as my husband seems to have done). And finally, is he a pedophile, or is the sociopath simply someone who does whatever feels good in the moment? He seems misogynistic as any pure narcissist would - calling himself asexual yet increasingly watching and engaging in more deviant and taboo acts. Is it likely that he will hurt a young girl?
Dhumanist --
Aha, now I get the 0/11 reference, thank you.
I'm afraid I don't have as definitive answers to your new questions. I'm not sure the extent to which marijuana would contribute to his behavior. I've always seen marijuana as a fairly mild drug, most people would not behave in outrageous sorts of ways just because they're under its influence. And yes, as a sociopath, he's always going to behave in uninhibited, impulsive sorts of ways, and be dishonest about it afterwards, whether or not he's under the influence.
If he had a secret file with pictures of your 12-year-old daughter naked in the shower, he's almost certainly got pedophiliac tendencies. (Why else would he take those pictures and then keep that file?) Sociopaths have similar sexualities as other people, they're just far more uninhibited about acting on those impulses. I can't say for certain that he represents a danger to your daughter, but that possibility definitely exists.
Also, keep in mind that he will see himself as the wronged party in all this (sociopaths always manage to see themselves as victims) and will probably be looking to get back at you however he can.
Again, good luck.
Thanks John Craig - this is all helpful. I thought some more about other strange types of behavior that I haven't seen described on this or other blogs. For example, just before we separated (when he was visibly at his worst and looked and smelled like a homeless person), I once walked into the bathroom after he had showered. There was fresh urine all over the outer edges of the bathtub rim (where you'd keep the shampoo and soap). I confronted him and he blamed the dog, which is physically impossible!
Is this type of animal or child like behavior typical of socipaths? Is it possible he will get even worse? He now can only contact us through the lawyer or supervised visitation (I have an OOP as of 2 weeks ago), but I worry given the relationship to murder - I started to feel if this man had any regular access to communicate, one of us would lose our lives (that's all that is left for him to take at this point).
Thanks again - and I hope others find my stories helpful.
Dhumanist --
I haven't heard of that particular type of behavior (urinating all over the place) before, but one of the three childhood traits that most future serial killers have in common are (1), cruelty to animals, (2), fascination with fire/incipient pyromania, and (3) bedwetting past the usual diaper training age. I always thought that the third had to do with a simple lack of inhibition; maybe not bothering to aim your urine down the drain shows a similar complete lack of inhibition. Or it could be that he was doing it to get you back somehow. I don't know. (I've known sociopaths who were somewhat finicky a well.)
You made the right legal move there, good work. Can he get worse? The thing about a sociopath is, they already represent a complete lack of conscience, so, in that sense, no, he can't get worse. But that's not to say the way he expresses his complete lack of conscience might not get worse.
I'm a sociopath who with a 13 year old daughter whom I have raised as a single parent since she was 18 months.
She too is beginning to show similar tendencies.
We do love each other in our way and are quite affectionate.
We share a close relationship based for the most part on honesty and trust. Although being sociopaths we realise both of us can't help but be manipulative :)
We are each others confidantes and I am her teacher and devoted to helping her hone her skills.
I am directing her towards joining the police force. I think she would being and would make an excellent homicide detective one day
Anon --
Interesting. They say that the best profilers in the FBI are further up the sociopathy scale.
And I've always ben under the impression that a disproportionate number of sociopaths end up on the force. (I'm guessing somewhere in the neighborhood of 8%, as opposed to their proportion in the populaiotn of roughly 3%.)
I walked a way from a psychopath in the making...for sure narcissist, so was his mother.
I'm going to only give the most recent bizarre incident that got me walking..no RUNNING!!
I was schedule to have an operation, had, came home..never once asked if I needed an aspirin, tea, water, nothing , nada, zilch..
Never once (since birth) had he ever gotten up and bathe, fed, burped, nor played with his children...NEVER! I give birth to twins, plus had a 4-yr-old at the time. I was on my feet from the recovery room ever since.
So during the recovery from surgery, I had no help with the kids, the housework, moving, repositioning ..nothing! Matter of fact, the day before the surgery he said to me.."I don't give a f*** if you laid in a corner and died bitch!" projection...(after asking for help to move the bed closer to the bathroom, as I anticipated no help was forthcoming post surgery).
The bizarre part...few week after the surgery, he left to go and see his malignant narcissistic mother who was recently diagnosed with end stage 4 malignant cancer. (go figure right) karma...
He promised he would call to say he had arrived after a 19 hour drive. He never looked back for three days! Not a call, not one text to say..he arrived. When i finally got a hold of him the evening of day #3 and asked why didn't you at least text and said you made it?
His angry reply: " My mother wasn't feeling well and I got into the bed with her and was rubbing stomach and we both fell asleep"! I was flabbergasted to say the least!!
Me: "So, where do you sleep? In the bed with your mother?"
Him: "If I fall asleep while talking with her, yeah, why, that's my mom!" WOW! Saw absolutely nothing odd about sleeping with "mommy" at 35, she's 60!
Me, I was still wasn't done as I was in AWE!! "So in the 3 days you've been gone.. you've been too busy crawling in the bed, rubbing your mom tummy to call us and let us know that you've arrived safe? You know what, you're where you needed/wanted to be, don't come the hell back!!" I was done!!
There's no CURE for that!! Not enough psychoanalysis, psychiatrist, freaking hypnotherapist.. or any other kinda ist, to fix THAT!! "THAT" my friend, is a psychopath!
There's more... his MOTHER sends selfies of herself to him every other week when we were together! Has about roughly...200 photo's stored in his phone, about a good 5 of them is of his children and 5 more of his children with his mother (deleted all of them that had my children in them), about 30 of them random pictures himself and the the rest his MOTHER!!!!!
Yes, you heard that right! His mother sends selfies, pictures of herself posing like she is a model, hands on hip, staring up into the sky (really freaky), some staring dead-faced into the camera, posing on the couch, some bare from the top of her bosom on up and all WHILE SMIRKING into the camera! Something's not right!!
Oh there's more... This nasty, narcissistic monster has done crossed the lines from son to "fantasy lover" in her mind. When I would ask him if he see's nothing wrong with "mother" sending selfies to him so constantly.....he simply states " That's my mother, we're just close".
He sees absolutely nothing wrong with it. Wow! Not to mention the obsessive phones calls EVERY, SINGLE DAY...10-15 TIMES a day! His mother would call him 10-15 times a day...... kid you not. You couldn't make this shit up!
Got my children and got the hell out.
I hate to be the woman to come back with tail between legs, but my hope is that others will visit this site and understand the insidious and painful cycle we put ourselves in if we do not follow no-contact prescriptions.
Two weeks ago he claims he is moving to San Francisco, and I offer to let him see our son one last time. We meet in a museum and he is right away kissing me, hugging me, telling me life is nothing and is suffering without us. His eyes light up to hear that we may have a chance. He talks about how sick it makes him to know I've been suffering (he imagined, angrily, that I had moved on and was "living it up" with my supposed high income and lavish lifestyle). Talk about getting well, going to therapy, working on things, etc. I gave him $1K in exchange that he promised to sign the divorce papers.
He signed the papers, and we met again this past Weds for dinner. I picked him up from work and he introduced me to everyone as his "wife" and I told him not to do that again. Then today, I do a search on a Facebook girl he had added, and I see her profile picture is now a picture of them as a couple. This picture is posted the same day that he is introducing me as his wife at work. These people have no conscience. No concern for others' emotions - it is all a game to them, either for pleasure, or to get what they want (money, sex, an ego stroke, etc.).
John, you said something that I still can't fathom - that they don't change. It hurts, seeing him with this girl and wondering - will he actually change and be an amazing man with this woman? Or is she doomed to the same hell if she continues with him? I shouldn't waste my energy on such concerns - it's my own flaw - but they do a good job of making you believe that they will be wildly happy and successful now that they've left you - the toxic baggage (which they created) - behind.
I should add to that same description - he was literally punching the inside door of my car, cursing and yelling at me that he just wants to "live a normal life" and that my obsession over imaginary women is ruining our chances. You have to be in the situation to understand that these acts feel so "real" - these outbursts of emotion seem so genuine, how could I not feel guilty for accusing him of something when he was obviously NOT talking to women???
And yet here we are...picture in full view and posted on this girl's page the same night!!!
Dhumanist --
First, you have to accept that your ex will never change. NEVER. (Sorry, but that's worth repeating.)
As far as his new girlfriend, I can pretty much guarantee you that she will end up as disillusioned as you did. That's always the way it will be with a sociopath in the long run. In the short run, she is probably enamored of his charm and his looks and his dynamic personality. But the more she gets to know him, the more she will see what he's really like, and the less she'll like him. And not only that, I can pretty much guarantee that all his future (long term) relationships will fail for the same reason. It may take them a while, but all of his paramours will eventually become disenchanted with hi.
Here's another thing for you to think about: this guy took pictures of your naked 12-year-old daughter. How irresponsible would you be to allow him any further contact with her? imagine the following: you're sitting in a courtroom some day and the judge says, wait a second, you KNEW that this man took a picture of your 12=year-old daughter when she was in the shower, and yet you allowed him further contact with her even AFTER you were divorced?? Just mull over that.
Sorry to be so harsh, but there's really no other way to get this message across.
yes I need the harshness - I don't even think you're being harsh. I went with NC for 3 months and was well. Then he started with he is moving to San Francisco and wanted to see his son and I one last time. And like that, with crying, remorseful pleas and promises, the sappy codependent in me believes he will get help finally and change.
I needed to read what you wrote and it helps. I don't want other women to suffer and my heart hurts for that girl. But pardon me for hoping he gets hit by a truck.
Thanks for your support John!
Dhumanist --
Feeling that way is only natural.
You're welcome and good luck.
I am reading the book Psychopath Free and have been working with a healer. She told me yesterday that I would one day be thankful to my psychopathic ex for all the pain he caused. I took her words as alien and absurd.
But today I came across something helpful in the book: she writes, "You probably remembered the psychopath so fondly not because they were a good person, but because that was the peak of your light...you tended to pour so much of your love and affection into other human beings. Because you hadn't felt that love for yourself. Through the psychopathic healing process, you make that final leap."
But with these words from the book, I think I see what you all mean. Never before this relationship did I invest and love so deeply. I never put in so much prayer, so much effort to improve myself, so much effort to find resolutions, so much effort to fidelity, so much effort to forgive...all of the things that are best in me shone 150% because of the nature of that relationship.
And just like you and so many have told me my whole life, I have to learn to love myself. I never understood that either - how does one do that? But now I think I understand that too - I am capable of doing it - I was able to do it outwardly in this sick relationship. I needed the relationship experience to show me these gifts. But now what I need to do is to direct all of those gifts inward to my soul, right? To pray for myself, to find resolutions for myself, to forgive myself, to love myself deeply in spite of being flawed - to realize as you said, that I am perfect in my flaws.
I think this is a very big healing moment for me.
I wanted to write to share this with you, but also to thank you for helping complete this puzzle. I have a long way to go to heal, but it helps to wake up instead of angry and sad that this ever happened, instead of saying "well at least I got the miracle of my son out of this," to be able to say "Thank God that I had this relationship, for I may never have started the journey to love myself without it."
Dhumanist --
I haven't heard of that book, and I have to wonder about its assumption that people think back on the sociopaths they've known with fondness. I think most think back with bitterness.
Anyway, I'm glad you're helping be healed by the book. I agree with the premise that in a way they bring out the best in you, even if it's by them being the worst human beings imaginable. (I'm also not sure that I actually gave you that message, but if you think you got that from me, fine.)
Anyway, if I have helped you, I'm glad. Good luck, and stay away from him. There are plenty of other men out there.
I was married to one. He also tried to destroy our son, he was very cruel, they never, never change, they just get better picking their victims. I say victims because, as soon as your usefulness is over...so are you, or if they get tired of you busting them out. They are dangerous, be careful... get away fast.
A person I know I feel is a sociopath.
They had learning disabilities when young and is still needing repetitious type jobs. They live with her father/brother and in her room she has a continual turnover of animals, that she buys, gets food for them, the food stays in the bag, and the animals die, constantly over years now. She blames their death on every reason except the care she didn't give them? She never been in trouble with the law, has held down jobs for long periods of time, on the other hand she has no regard for others, i.e., she wanted to get herself pregnant and she did with no intention of letting the male sperm donor know? Yet she does show emotions at times; she is scared of someone taking the baby from her because of lack of job, uncertain housing. I want to stay close to her for her sake/baby's sake but I do not want to give her cause to push me away, either from them so I don't know what is happening in her life with her/baby? I have suggested her consulting a therapist to talk things through withbut ? any ideas/thoughts/advice.
Anon --
My advice is usually to just stay as far away a possible from the sociopath. If this person is actually a sociopath, you have no upside to continued contact. If you're seriously concerned about the child's well-being, you might contact the local child welfare services and explain the situation. Whatever you do, don't think you can ever "reform" a sociopath.
The bit about the pets continually dying is worrisome. Animal shelters have experience with people like this, who often torture their animals to death, knowing there will be no penalty, and try not to give them pets.
Just reading other people post about sociopaths confirms that they are actually "real" people. I was on & off with a sociopath for 5 years...it's unbelievable to be with someone who can pretend to love you so much, know your likes & dislikes.. Make you feel so complete..but to find out all of it is nothing more than a facade to suck the life out you...sociopaths make you feel like you owe them something but in reality you're giving everything you can & it will never be enough to them. Once you can't give them what they want its on to the next victim. They ignore you like you never existed.. They will leave you broke, hungry & homeless.. They simply don't care!!! Beware they lurk everywhere! That nice, charming fella that moves really quick into your life & sweep you off your feet..pay close attention he may be the sociopath from hell..they do nothing but lie lie lie & have numerous relationships & conceive children while with you... I hope the best recovery for victims of sociopaths... They are dangerous human beings! ****Stay on alert!***
Anon --
That's a great summation of what they're all about.
I think I have been involved with a sociopath. He was a bank co-worker whom I foolishly had an affair with a few years ago. He mirrors you and makes you feel like he's the best guy you every met. His wife found out and kicked him out though he claims he left her. He moved in with me and then I began to see the real person but kept thinking I was imagining it and that he was volatile post-marriage break up. He was constantly saying he was unhappy, comparing me unfavourably to former lovers. He has two young boys. He sees them as extensions of his huge ego. I now see that he uses the good father role to make himself look good for business. He likes driving them around or taking them shopping to play the part. He works in sales and image is important to him. He also has a giant ego and constantly puts me down, says both I and his exes are mentally I'll and other gas lighting that it has taken me almost 3 years on and of to see. He has left me on many occasions and has definately cheated with other women (possibly men too in other counties). I used to miss the early attention and the catch and release became addictive as the manipulation continued. He soaks up adoration from his kids and likes to see anything they achieve in school as proof of his smartness. Deep down he cares only about himself and conning others by playing a part. He is a compulsive liar - contradicts himself regularly. Projects his own behaviour onto others. Uses silent treatment and manipulation to put me down and calls me troubled. He only sees his kids at weekends but uses them in conversations to appear more normal. He claims the youngest boy who is the image of him is gay and seems to relish in that. He often txts his ex wife to upset me and sleeps around but denies it. then plays the doting father to clients. He has a more senior job than me in managemnet but we work for the same company in a small town. He puts me down to everyone he can. He plays the victim coz of his marraige break up and is very convincing and charming until you see the light. N
N --
He does sound like one. At first I thought he might be just a narcissist but the gaslighting and especially the pathological lying put him over the line.
My advice, get away.
Thanks John.
I respect your advice greatly. I did not even know the word sociopath before I met him.
He left before a few times. I was suspicious of him. I assumed he was cheating. He was suggesting it in subtle ways and then calling me crazy or silently staring at me when I'd ask him who he was texting or why his phone was on silent. He always deletes his phone records and acts shady about calls. Also, his work can involve travel to other counties and I feel that he is using this to find other sources of supply. He often talks about other girls he likes to make me suspicious. His ex wife believed the same. Though he tells people we are both possessive and crazy. People believe him as he comes across as charming and sincere. He can remain relatively stable for a few weeks at most a few months and then starts arguments, sneaking off etc. He admits to getting bored easily. At which point he leaves and if rejected by other targets he returns to mind games to get back my attention. It is all a cruel game of manipulation but despite knowing this I somehow miss him or the person I thought I fell for - the mask, I suppose.
He manipulates co-workers, he plays up to them. he can read their vulnerabilities well. One a single mother and another a married female business manager having an affair confide in him & my brother's wife who is customer service even plays along with him. this all gives him power. He runs them down and gossips about them but they don't know. He loves compliments and believes he is highly sought after by everyone. He is also very confident and boasts about his presentations, sales pitches and duping people etc. I think he likes his job as he is always getting one over on people whilst pretending to offer sound advice.
I want to get him out of my life for good. I think he assessed me as useful for local information early on to help his job as he was working in a city in another country before moving here. He knew I had grown up with two brothers and had nephews so I would be helpful to look after his kids. My job would mean I knew local contacts for sales and have information on co-workers. I have my own house - useful too. Also, he used me for attention & to make his wife jealous etc. All the while telling me she was troubled because her sister and father died and his youngest boi a toddler couldn't stop crying.
He has very few male friends. Seems to find it easier to trick women. At times he comes across as closet gay. But he has only one real friend from his home country that he grew up with. He phones him most weeks but doesn't see him often and that's why the friendship continues. He sneers at him too behind his back but sees him as useful. He was best man at his wedding in 2013. Brought me along just to irritate his ex wife I think and made the entire trip all about him.
He is very narcissistic but more so as you say a sociopath as he likes playing with people & their emotions. He even has an unblinking stare that once seemed seductive now like the predator he is. Despite being attracted to him, I always felt a coldness or distance about him, a sense of deceitfulness and shallowness that I could not ground. I think his biggest fear is being exposed as a fraud. He has never been physically violent and uses subtle manipulation and nastiness instead to make you feel insecure. I know he already trash talks about me but I feel even more nastiness when I cut him off completely. He is vindictive and could ruin my job or career if he wanted.
N
N --
If he does all the things you say, he's unquestionably a sociopath. What you ought to do is tell other people at the bank about him. Don't editorialize, just give them the facts, they'll come to the same conclusion you did. The problem with that is, if he's senior to you, he'll try to do the same to you, but if you act first, especially if you have the ear of anyone senior to him, you can head off some of the damage. Unfortunately, sociopaths are expert at inflicting damage, and he certainly won't draw the line at lying about you.
Then just get away from him. There's just absolutely no upside in sticking with a sociopath. They'll suck you dry in every way they can.
Thanks for the advice. Have thought about it. I want to get away from him completely. He has wasted enough of my life. Although he works in the same bank branch at times. He travels and is only answerable to head office in the capital city. He has everyone's ear. I think any attempt to tell others might work against me. I don't want to destroy him. Want to make a clean break and avoid him spreading lies to ruin me. He is 44 and more senior an investments and insurance sales manager. I am 36. He can be very convincing. I think he blames me for his marriage split and tells this to others to avoid blame. I wish now I had never met him but am careful what I tell him. I realise he cares for no one but himself and is only waiting to ruin me when I tell him I can't take any more. In the past I overlooked to much manipulation and crap from him and would forgive him but never again. I want him and his sons out of my life but I am afraid of his actions. He will win against me by using others.
Anon --
Sure.
Hate to say it, but you're probably right. Sociopaths don't take rejection well and are very skillful at manipulating others, and feel no qualms about lying to achieve their ends. You might want to even consider getting another job if that's possible. If not, maybe you should try to frame the break from the sociopath as a case of him breaking up with you, even though it's the other way around. If you can somehow convince him of this, it will make him less furious, and a little less inclined to put as much energy into backstabbing you than he would otherwise. (Rest assured, there's nothing you can do to get him to say nice things about you behind your back.)
Anyway, good luck.
My stepdaughter lived with us for two years after our newborn granddaughter was born. She was a methadone baby. My grandddaughter has developed amazingly. My stepdaughter has every single characteristic of a sociopath. The 2 years were pure hell except for the baby. She lied, she worked & spent her money, never paid any bills, her room was a constant mess & basically all the care for the baby was completed by my husband & I. She called me vulgar names, I could go on. After 2 years she moved & took up residence with a man who has supplied her with a car, & literally pays for everything yet he has no intimate relationship with her. She abuses him as she did with us. He pity's her & is worried about my granddaughter. He is in the exact situation as we had here. We are very concerned for my granddaughter.
My primary concern is my husband who says I am negative about his daughter. He realizes she has a problem but he thinks my stepdaughter can change. I know she can't.she is attempting to move back with us because the man finally realizes she will not change. I want my granddaughter but not her mother. I have pictures & a record of everything she has done in the past 2+ years. The father of my granddaughter is equally troubled. He has not contributed financially ever, yet my stepdaughter named him on the birth certificate. All i care about is the welfare of my grandchild. Do you have any suggestions? I know even if we tell my stepdaughter she needs to get her own place she will manage for 2 months & then get evicted for not paying. She uses my granddaughter as her weapon to be a victim & manipulate. she is not a good mother. The man buys & prepares all the food for my granddaughter. My stepdaughter lies & says she does everything. I know all this because I communicate with the man to keep tabs on my granddaughter. I am frantic on what to do particularly since my husband does not want to face this horrific situation. I hope you have a miracle.
Anon --
I'm sorry, I had no miracles, and as you can tell from my replies to previous comments, I don't believe that sociopaths ever change.
I'd say your only legal recourse is a legal one, to somehow have her declared as an unfit mother and get custody of the child yourself. But that's awfully difficult to do given that she's the mother, and you're her stepmother, and your husband wants to give her another chance. (Is he her biological father?)
And sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but there's actually a good chance that the granddaughter may end up as a sociopath herself, if the only mothering she is getting is from your stepdaughter. Sociopathy tends to pass itself along from one generation to the next; it doesn't sound as if your stepdaughter is the loving, maternal type.
Thank you, John. I knew this is what you would say, I just hoped for something. If we get custody of our granddaughter do you think our influence would redirect her psyche? Yes, my husband is the biological father. The story is long, the ex wife had/ has a tremendous influence on the negativity toward me. Their marriage was a sham & ended before I entered the picture. The daughter hates me & has been tirelessly trying to destroy our marriage primarily so she can control him. While she is in another state should I/we let her know that we know exactly what she is doing? Should we say the only thing we can do is get custody of our granddaughter because she is a sociopath & elaborate?
I am so sad for my grandchild.
Anon --
Honestly, sorry not to be able to give you good news, but the best I can do with most of your questions is a big fat "I don't know."
Can you redirect the granddaughter's psyche? There's just no way of telling, it depends on how old she is when you get her, how much love your stepdaughter gave her, how much influence her grandparents have had on her up until now.
I don't see the point in letting your stepdaughter know that you know exactly what she's doing: it won't change her behavior, and will just cause more friction.
Not sure what you can do legally, that's a question for a lawyer, not me.
Thank you. One last question. One of the primary issues right now is her living arrangement. She has not paid rent, car payment, car insurance, food including 5 dogs. The gentleman mentioned earlier plans to recover part of his loss when she receives her always large tax return. My thought was to ask the man to tell her she has 2 months & can remain if she pays all her expenses. He has not been insistant on her paying because she just says yes & never does. This has been going on for 7 months. Is the only way to force her to pay is by letting her know she will be evicted in 2 months. At which point if she does not pay my husband could, hopefully would tell her she has failed her daughter & the family might intervene.
I have felt that although the man has been generous & kind & trying to protect my granddaughter unless I believe he is enabling a bad situation & we can not move forward unless he stops accepting the abuse.
If she has no free ticket we may have a chance to save my granddaughter. Thank you.
Anon --
I'm not sure what your question is. You want my approval of that plan? That's not really a question for me to answer, you'll have to make those judgments as the situation evolves. If the man is counting on her to give him part of her tax returns, from what you've told me, he's not facing up to reality. She will find some excuse not to do so. And as far as the courts declaring her an unfit mother, again, that's a question for a lawyer, not me.
Good luck, I hope your granddaughter ends up okay.
I've been dating a guy for almost two years. he has a three year old from a previous marriage. When I first met him, he lived with his father and would go over to his ex wife's house to watch his son while she worked. I didn't really like that situation, but he said that she wouldn't allow him to see his son any other way. Anyways, things moved pretty fast. He said he loved me after about 2 months and we got our own place after 4. Everything was great, but then after about a month we started fighting all the time. He had his ex in our place when I made him swear he wouldn't, we went from spending all of our time alone to spending most of it working or watching his son. He added girls from his work and messaged one and made up ridiculous excuses (he later admitted he had a crush on her and asked her to make out once, while we were living together). I looked at his pay stubs and he was always late to work. He drank every day and even took my rent money and bought himself beer before he had to work. I made half of what he did and always had my rent on time but he didn't have his rent on time ONCE. He came home one day with a $50 speaker and said he bought it because we couldn't afford rent anyways. He tried taking it back after I yelled enough but he said they wouldn't take it.
One night, we were drinking and things got out of hand. I hit him with a pillow and he smacked me across the head so hard I fell and got a gash on my face started bleeding everywhere. I was so freaked out I actually pretended to be unconscious because I was afraid he'd still try to hurt me. He ended up cleaning the blood off my face, laying me on the bed, and then had sex with me (while he thought I was passed out). I left him the next morning, but after a few months I took him back.
Since then, I have left him multiple times and have come back. A few times for cheating on me with his ex. Recently I left him because I am pregnant and he has a drug problem and spends hundreds of dollars every month on them. I kept telling him to stop and he hasn't. When I left him he promised me he would stop and also stop smoking, so I came back... agsin. And no, he has not stopped like he said he would. I am nkt speaking to some family beca use of the fact I came back and when I told him this and asked how he could still do this to me while we have a baby on the way he got "sad" and said he was sorry and didnt knkw what waa wrong with him and started hitting himself in the head and threatened to kill himself because I would be better off without him (which is something he does/says when he messes up). that was over a month ago and the situation isn't looking any better.
Anon --
Sorry but I side with your family here. I can't imagine what possessed you to keep taking him back despite his incredibly dysfunctional behavior. One thing you have to keep in mind here: he's never going to change. He has a substance abuse problem, he's dishonest, he's irresponsible, and he's always been this way (or, at least as long as you've known him). If I were you, I'd just cut him out of your life to whatever extent possible given the baby you're having with him. I can't imagine he'd be a good influence on the child.
Little Red,the big bad wolf
To be clear it is possible to learn to "feel" things. You just have to pretend for so long that no one else can tell. To be a sociopath with a child is difficult. In some ways I do have feelings for her but I am always debating if I have been pretending to be an average human for so long that the only time I don't feel is when I am away from my child. The "feelings" I have for the child aren't typical for parents. My child is my exact replica inside and out so as they grow older and I teach them what I was taught I only get satisfaction in knowing that I made them as I was made.
Big Bad Wolf --
That was an uncommonly honest comment for a sociopath…..Thank you, I guess. The anonymity must help.
Our relative is mixed up with a girl who we believe is a sociopath. Now married with children and separated. We can't convince him to get away from her. Their children are in foster care. What can the law do? What help is there out there? He made a lot of mistakes but she has convinced him only he made the mistakes.
Anon --
Honestly, it seems to now be mostly a legal issue, and I can't help you there. Why are the children in foster care? Is he not able to care for them?
As far as getting him away from her -- though you say they are separated -- the best thing to do would be to simply educate him on sociopaths. You can either get him a book on the subject if he has the patience to read one, or just have him read various posts on sociopathy in this blog. If you type "sociopath alert" into the subject bar at the top of this blog there will be a long list of posts about various sociopaths. I'm sure some of them will show traits in common with his wife; maybe that will open his eyes.
I read a comment here that said as long as the non-sociopath parent loves the child they will be normal. I loved and cared for my daughter but I believe she is like her father, a sociopath. I admit to never feeling like we bonded well, but it was not for lack of trying. I had other children I loved and cared for without ever noticing a problem. And I believe the one I may have bonded with the most is also a sociopath,
I prayed that my children would never reproduce. And I now have one grandchild I am worried about. I know his father is a very decent person, but, presumably, the baby is going to be in my daughter's "care" much of the time. It is hard to believe that my SIL doesn't know what she is, but I really don't think so, I want to do something, but not the wrong thing. I would appreciate any advice.
Anon --
I"m not sure exactly what it is that you want to do. If your goal is to prevent your children from having children of their own, I don't think there's much you can do; that's really up to them.
As far as warning your son-in-law, I wouldn't do that either. That would just make him think ill of you, and wouldn't be enough to get him away from your daughter, which is not something you want anyway. (Dn't you want your grandchild to have his influence as a father to offset your daughter's influence?)
I'm a middle twin of 4 girls - No, sociopaths cannot love anyone, they need control. My father is a physician and is somehow still licensed and practicing and very much a sociopath (I'm not the only medical neglect case in his file). I spent most of my childhood very sick(I only recently found out what it was) that caused every neurological problem you can imagine, constant muscular and joint injuries, and eventually nervous system break down, etc. I was never received any medical intervention for any of this except terrible stomach pain and problems but only after 3 months and only because he caught me crying (which terrified me) and curled up in bed and even then his immediate response was anger. He is a bully; verbally, very psychologically, and occasionally physically abusive, at least with me, and skilled at making sure us kids and my mother were terrified of him. I had sustained periods where I was very sick, my whole body would be inflamed and his response was that I was just fat and lazy so I learned early that "complaining" as he saw it, was useless since his response was always the same - nothing or anger thus I became skilled at hiding it from everyone, not even close friends were aware that I was sick and eventually convinced myself (with his help) that nothing was wrong yet I was completely miserable and in severe pain all of the time but I suppose terror can make your brain do amazing things. In truth I'm lucky to be alive. He is a skilled and can charm anyone he thinks he can get something from. He burned every professional bridge and like many of you I pity his current wife and her child. Why these women think so little of themselves to tolerate such abuse is beyond me but again, he screwed me up psychologically well into my mid twenties when I finally realized that there was something very, very wrong, told him he needed massive amounts of therapy , and severed any relationship with him even though I knew he had an arsenal of guns - I'd just had enough. 2 of my sisters are now the female versions of him and subsequently I have no contact with them either. The 4th, my twin saw him for what he is when we were just out of high school and the nasty divorce was over (divorcing a sociopath can be a terrifying endeavor). My mother is not a sociopath but is a child of an alcoholic, so coping manifests as the denial of anything hard to deal with and was, at the time, easily controlled so any loving, maternal nurture was also void. No, they cannot love their children but will stay loyal to the ones that stay loyal to them as long as they're able to continue the control...it is all about control. He almost neglected his own child to death and quite frankly the man should be in prison (again, I'm not the only case and there have been deaths).
Alot of these posts about sociopaths seem to confuse "that jerk that beat my kids, or ran off with her" with an actual sociopath. In fact, what are describing sounds closer to borderline personality.
An actual sociopath is a person who cares about things, not people, and is driven. To succeed at all costs, pushing whoever aside who hinder their desires. They are willing to lie or cheat to get what they want.
I know this because I've studied this (and because I've worried that I might be one). I concluded after research that while I do lack some empathy, I have more in common with a schizoid (inability to feel emotions strongly) than a true sociopath. Don't confuse sociopathy with Asperger's, schizoid, autism, borderline, or any other personality disorder. It is characterized by deceit, indifference to the feelings of others, and malice.
Many sociopaths are in positions of power, police, politicians, and areas where they can control the lives of others. Quite a few are landlords. Think about this the next time you pay rent, and the guy raises it.
From my understanding, sociopaths develop in an atmosphere where love is not actually present, where parents use and abuse, and the child has no reason to believe anyone cares for them.
Given this, it is difficult to see a sociopath give genuine love to a child. If they do, yes, it is a sort of "extension of oneself" deal. Or in some cases the opportunity to control or use the child, or make a baby psycho of their own.
Anon --
Good points. I've noticed that while sociopaths are something like 3 or 4% of the male population, something like 30% of divorced women say their exes were sociopaths. I guess it sounds more dramatic than "borderline personality" or some of the other diagnoses. I suspect the most common condition they faced was simply narcissistic personality disorder, which is far more common. (all sociopaths are narcissists, but not all narcissists are sociopaths.)
You give a good description of sociopathy, but keep in mind that there are different styles of sociopathy. You mentioned police and landlords, but the style you describe has a more white collar flavor to it. There are plenty of low level criminals who are sociopaths as well, and they just don't seem to care that much about anything (or anybody), just their next score, or their next fix, or their next rape or kill. They're dishonest and indifferent to the feelings of others, but also irresponsible (they don't care enough to get to a job on time, etc.). Plus there's the pathological liar style of sociopathy, which is characterized less by malice than indifference to others, but a burning desire to be the center of attention and be lionized, often for false reasons. (Think Munchhausen's Syndrome.)
I just found out my father is a sociopath. I am only 16. These past 4 or 5 years i've notaiced his strange abusive behaviour. I always thought he was really agressive and he never even comforted me when i was crying. Even when he made me cry. He was and probably still is an alcoholic. And my childhood was basically trying to avoid my dad. He was always drunk and whenever he had a chance. He wanted to have a talk. Basically he was always talking. For hours. And once i was tearing up bc he was saying things that hurt me. And he told me that he doesn't care if i cry because i probably manipulate with that. So that tells a lot about him. He obviously know a lot about manipulating with people. And whole my life i thought i was crazy. Like paranoyed. Like something wasn't quite right but i couldn't put my finger on it. And now i did some research on internet and i now know for sure what was so wrong all these years. But it's confusing. He has made me cry and suffer in confusion for my whole life. And most of me hates him with all my heart. But i still feel like there's something more. He tells me that i'm smart and strong and that i can achieve anything i will put my mind to. And he has cried in front of me. While drunk of course and it makes me more confused. He has showed his emotions to me. But he hides them fron everybody else. He has said he would defend me and my mum with his life. Or even kill for us and i am not flattered at all more like terrified. Still no one is ever good enough for him. Even i'm not.
I hope this makes sense and sorry if i misspelled something. This isn't my native language. I hust need to understand if he really is a sociopath and if he actually cares about me. I'm confused.
Anon --
Sorry, I haven't heard enough to say that he's a sociopath. so far from what you've told me he just sounds as if he's a sloppy alcoholic mess. Is he consistently dishonest? Does he manipulate other people? What does he do for a living? Is he completely uninhibited when he isn't drinking? It does sound as if either way, independence will do you good once you turn 18, or whenever you can afford to get away.
The 16 yo about my father-
I'm not sure but he doesn't have any friends. He cuts contact with people if they're not useful. Or like he thinks everyone is using him. Kinda both. He teaches me how to be "smart" by using people and saying that he knows how to talk with people to get things done. He thinks that he knows everything and does everything better than enyone else. He basically controlls the whole family. My mum is starting to kinda stand up for herself now and he is not happy about that. He has said that we're nothing without him and we could not survive without him. Maybe he is just really messed up but some of these things make me think that he has no feelings..
16-year-old --
I still can't say for sure, though the second set of behaviors you've listed sound more suspicious. He's at the least a narcissistic personality. And he does sound manipulative. But I haven't heard anything yet that quite rises to the level of unquestionable sociopathy. Does belie to the family, or just spin things? Is he the same way when he's sober? He's definitely a pill, I just can't tell you that he's a sociopath.
-the 16 year old
He lies to other people and is really irresponsible but he haven't really lied about anything meaningful to the family. Or i just haven't noticed. I used to think he's better when he's sober but he just doesn't show that many emotions and isn't all over the place. He still is really agressive and narcissistic. He says he would never hurt us. And he never has. But sometimes when he's angry he threatens us. Also thing were really complicated with him and my mum for a while. And he thought that she'll leave him so he told me and my brother to talk with my mum about it and tell her that we love him so that she wouldn't leave. But i tried to stay out of that. Which he wasn't happy about so he threatened again. That he'll do something to himself if we leave him. Basically he threatens a lot if things don't go his way
Sixteen-year-old --
He sounds worse and worse, but I just can't say for sure. He could be a sociopath, but he could also just be a very narcissistic guy, and he might also be a borderline personality. Whatever he is, he sounds like bad news and I'd suggest you get away as soon as you can. At least you recognize his faults and haven't internalized them, and for that you should be grateful. I have no idea what your personal situation is, whether you'll be going to college or not, or working, or whether either is possible. But I'd reiterate that becoming independent will help you. He'll try to keep you close somehow, but realize ahead of time that he will do that, and take that into account when making future decisions (about where to move, etc.).
-The 16 year old
Thank you for your time and thank you for your advice!
Sixteen --
Sure, no problem. Good luck.
I'm pretty sure my father is a psychopath. He charmed my mother in the beginning and married her afterwords when she became pregnant she told me he changed and became very controlling and abusive. He pretty much treated her like a child and if she didn't obey him he would hit her. Once we moved to a more western country where there were stricter laws on spousal abuse she realized that she did not have to take his abuse and started to defend herself when he attacked her by calling the police. He has been arrested numerous times and would calm down for a bit out of fear of being put into prison again but after a while the arguments would start again.He restricted us from seeing our relatives for years. Finally a few years later it came to a point where they were arguing almost everyday and sleeping in separate rooms. He regularly spit on her and swore at her and as you can imagine this was a horrible environment to raise kids in as my sibling and I were witnessing this. He was also unemployed as he was going to college supposedly to provide us with a better life but really it was just to raise his status so he could brag about it. He would regularly abuse me mentally, emotionally and physically getting explosively mad over trivial small things going on a rampage. So as you can tell she divorced him and kicked him out with good cause. The next decade he lived on welfare never paying a dime of child support and barely seeing me providing a horrible example of what a father should be. Another decade later he is living in poverty still on welfare and has not made any progress in his life in any area. He is so delusional that he thinks he is superior to everyone else when in reality he is a failure. He has to see a psychiatrist on a regular basis as he is very unstable and is required to as a condition of his continuing to receive welfare without having to search for work. I would have thought in his old age he would have mellowed out but it seems he has just gotten worse and lost touch with reality even more. He constantly lies then rationalizes every bad thing he has done saying it was everyone else fault taking no responsibility and if confronted with it just explodes and starts swearing, making personal vicious attacks and trying to fight me. He also starts to badmouth me behind my back to others because I won't believe him. He will use anything I say and twist it around on me trying to make it my fault. He cares very much about his image and playing games with people as he stated he likes it and it provides him with fun. I now have a good understanding of how evil he really is and plan to keep my distance from him going forward. I'm glad to know I'm not alone in having experienced this and their are others out there who have overcome this.
Anon --
It sounds as if your father could be a sociopath, but he could be a borderline personality as well. He's an extremely controlling personality, and has all the symptoms of being a narcissist as well. But if he were a sociopath he would be more successful at conning people, and it sounds as if the only one he as able to con was your mother. It also sounds as if there' some sort of cultural clash at work here. You mentioned that you came from another country, and there are some countries where the men are supposed to be in control and the women subservient, and not all of the men in those countries are sociopaths, even if their behavior would be seen in that light in the US. For instance, if a Muslim comes over here and wants to practice Sharia law, does that make him a sociopath? No, it just makes him a Muslim. But if someone who had been raised in the US were that controlling and acted in a similar fashion, he would be much more likely be a sociopath.
So…..your father is bad news, and you've made the right decision to keep your distance from him. But I can't say for sure that he's a sociopath.
I think I may have caused misunderstanding. When I said more western country I meant country with stricter laws and law enforcement to deal with people like him. Our culture and background is christian and in no way supports his behavior or attitude but I can see what you mean by the sharia law example in regards to Muslims. I believe he is a psychopath not sociopath which matches more with his behavior and manipulative ways. He knows exactly what he is doing but just does not care or have empathy to put himself in the other persons shoes. He is also incredibly hypocritical. There are numerous situations that are just to involved to explain but I thank you for providing this public forum to discuss this issue.
Anon --
Thank you. Your father could very well be a psychopath, from what you've said. I'm just raising the possibility of borderline personality disorder and extreme narcissism as well. You've certainly made the right decision to keep your distance.
Hi John,
I think my father is a sociopath.
He does seem to have the whole crocodile protective nature, but to a crazy extent. He once got a restraining order for a school who suspended my brother for a week.
He is intelligent but very delusional. He talks to himself and even at times hits himself.
He's supremely selfish, he takes a lot and gives back barely anything. He does not care about anybody else. He explodes on a daily basis, for stupid small things. He has many fits of rage that can get violent whether verbally, emotionally, and at times physically.
In his delusion, he believes that one specific person is the villain and everything wrong in his life is specifically that person's fault (my mother). His religion is scientology (which I believe may have contributed to his delusions).
He is an expert liar and feels no shame or remorse. When he attack and knows he hit a weak spot, he enjoys it. As in maniacal laughing and everything.
He lacks insight and incapable to be sympathetic. A total drama queen and a failed musician, his employers tend to get tired of his attitude.
He's very irresponsible and disorganized. He doesn’t take care of his belongings.
He believes himself to be the center of the universe, he wants to possess everything, control everything.
He's also really good at chess, and not bad at business. Which is why I'm doubting that he is psychotic. I just want to know what he is so I can take action.
Anon --
There seem to have been a bunch of comments recently where a lot of the behaviors that have been described don't necessarily fit the framework of sociopathy. Your father definitely exhibits a lot of the symptoms: enjoying attacking weak spots, being an expert liar, and feeling no shame or remorse. His narcissistic attitude, his greed, and his need for control. And blaming someone else for all his failures. Those all are typical of sociopaths.
But a lot of the other stuff you describe doesn't really fit. If he's truly delusional that means that he has a psychosis of some sort; sociopaths aren't delusional except when it comes to their own abilities, in particular their own ability to always pull the wool over other's eyes. Talking to himself (as opposed to merely thinking out loud) also tends to be a symptom of psychosis. And I've never known a sociopath who hits himself. Also, most people who join Scientology (as opposed to the people at the top of the organization) are simply lost, deluded souls, not master manipulators. And being disorganized is also a sign of something else. And the lack of self control could be a sociopathic thing, or it could be something else too.
To tell the truth, he sounds more like a borderline personality or something other than a sociopath, even though you've rightly identified several behaviors which are typical of sociopaths. I'm not sure what type of action you were planning to take, but the right one would just be to put some distance between you and him. Being around someone as narcissistic as your father -- and he's definitely narcissistic, along with whatever else he is -- can't possibly be doing you any good, so I"d take my leave.
My husband after 20 years of marriage seems to have gone crazy. He became extremely hateful and verbally cruel. Found out he was having an affair with a known sociopath and is now living with her. She's gone through four husbands and many men dumping each to move on. He claims to be extremely happy with her and has walked out on his entire loving and close family.If he's happy with a sociopath knowing what she's been to other men, does that mean he's a sociopath? Might also mention that he is successful and very good looking, she on the other hand is unattractive and uneducated. Does a sociopathic woman have magic powers? How the hell does this happen?
Anon --
I can almost promise you that your husband is not a sociopath, assuming that his "new personality" is something that just came over him recently. (What did he act like before?) The reason I'm so sure of this is that a sociopath rarely falls under the spell of another sociopath this way. Sociopaths tend to be able to see through each other, and usually end up hating each other, in fairly short order. And a sociopath like this woman -- I'm just assuming you're right about her -- would pick a relatively innocent, maybe even slightly naive guy, for her mark. Yes, sociopaths do sometimes seem to have uncanny (I won't say "magical") powers of manipulation. My guess is that he will come to his senses, and maybe at that point the two of your can reunite, if you're still interested.
@ Husband went crazy......He had an affair after four years of marriage. After a year we got back together and every thing has great. He's high energy, always has to have a project. Explosive temper at times but easily calmed. Active and loving with our children, very involved with their sports. He is 50, I'm 46. He and I share a love of the same outdoor activities, and sports. We enjoyed a healthy sex life....very compatible. Not to toot my own horn, but I'm an attractive, very fit, educated woman. What could this ugly, uneducated, sociopathic woman have that would make him walk away from his entire family. He knows that she destroyed four families before latching on to him. He walked away from our 3 beautiful grown children and a home that we built and loved. Help me understand how a smart man who could have his choice of any woman be played by this sociopath. Will she feel that she got lucky this time and hang on to him or will her sociopathic personality make her need to move on.....NO, I would never ever take him back, but so need to understand how a woman like this can intoxicate so many men. By the way, she has 3 children by 3 different men. He can't stand to see a woman smoke and hates tattoos. She does both. How....DOES....SHE....Do....IT.
Is it possible to mentally take down a female sociopath or will she always come out the winner? Do they have an Achilles heel?
Anon --
I'm not sure what you mean by "take down," and in any case there are probably as many ways to get to a sociopath as there are sociopaths. Plus you generally want to avoid a direct confrontation with them because they practice a no holds barred for of life, and have no compunctions about stooping as low as they have to in order to get you back. There's literally nothing they won't do, so I'd beware, and just give her a wide berth. One thing you can do is alert others to her behavior.
there are many variations of sociopathic behavior, and most of it is a lot more grusom than you just described. Smart ones like to turn the World up side Down, for their kids. By getting everybody in on emotional abuse since they were very small. They simply state they are terrific parents and tells evertybody WHO to view the kid and treat the kid.
If your parents truly are sociopathic are luckey to live beyond your teenage years. Most dont try to drown their kids, ore kill them with a knife. They want some fun and want to keep up their addiction.
And if the child of such sociopaths live beyon their teens their life will be a hell, not ever being able to be free. Beeing stolked, false accusation, bullying
slander of their name, being the victim of other sociopaths Again and agian.
Haveing total Stockholm syndrom in connection to your parents. Rape is all you know.
I did not explain myself great, and comprehensiable.
I'm not sure if this has been posted or not yet, but just because someone did you wrong does not mean they are a sociopath. Cheating spouses are not inherently sociopaths, nor are people you just don't like. I was under the impression that a very very small amount of people are actual sociopaths and that even if you met them they or had relationships with them you wouldn't know. I think a lot of people on here confuse things like borderline personality disorders and just plain narcissism/megalomania with sociopaths. I don't mean to rain on anyones parade as you all seem pretty convinced that the person that wronged you in indeed a sociopath but I think that diagnosing an advisory as such is itself a tad narcissistic.
John Barra --
Yes, you make a good point. I've said elsewhere that something like 50% of the divorced women I've talked to feel their exes are sociopaths, when in fact sociopaths are only 3% or so of the population. And narcissism is easy to mistake for sociopathy if you're not that familiar with them. That said, some women do marry sociopaths, and then do a little research and figure out that they were married to one, and search a little more, and then stumble across this blog, and this post in particular. So I'm guessing that the percentage here who were married to one is much higher.
(BTW, you only have to click "Post Comment" once; this is one of those blogs where the mediator -- me -- has to "approve" comments before they get posted, which means people have to wait for me to get to my email at times.)
Am I able to email you personally?
Anon --
What is this about?
If you send me your email address I won't post it, and will write you back if you have a legitimate concern.
I have an 18yr old daughter & I'm having to face a fact that no mother would ever want to have to face.... That my child may be a sociopath ! Being that she's a female she plays a victim so she's able to get out of any trouble especially with her unusual saw sqeu squeeky voice & baby face.. She can cry a river of tears in a heart beat. But besides all that I'm going to give a lil history.
When she was 2 watching Disney & scenes where most kids & me tear up(bambies mom get n shot) she would show no emotion just a cold & distant stare. I would ask her,"Hey baby don't you think that's sad?" Her emotionless response ,"No.why should it?" She would begin asking me when she should cry... I knew then something was different about her. At 3 she would bite & spit & discipline didn't faze her. At 7 she told me a ghost boy told her to hurt me & do bad things to me.... Later when I asked her about the boy she looked at me with a cold look & a faint grin & said, "There was no boy!" Meaning it was her. She's a compulsive liar. She has gone as far as calling OCS on me & my husband saying I was pimping her out for drugs & he was abusing her when she was 15 , all cause she wanted to stay the week at her cousins to see a boy. I can go on its endless with her. I don't know if shes a sociopath or am I doing something wrong? Please if someone can just tell me I'm crazy or not that's all I need to know? Because I'm being told I'm a cold & callous mother.. Once again because of her being a victim!
Anon --
Sorry for this late reply. I don't know what to tell you, other than, your daughter does sound like a sociopath.
Being able to cry on command is a sociopathic specialty. The pathological lying is another sign. And calling OCS and lying about her own parents is by itself almost complete proof too. (That one act combines dishonesty and disloyalty and destructiveness to an extreme degree.)
All I can say, is, you're right in your assessment, and from now on you just have to be careful. Usually I tell people to put as much distance between themselves and the sociopath as possible, but since she's your daughter, that option isn't really available.
My X has no time between his girlfriend/partying and work (where there is always a fire t lit by him - to fight) to spend any physical time with my kids. But he messages them fairly regularly telling them how much he misses them, loves them, promising to spend more time when he comes to town next. This is so sad. He did this to me for 25 years. Not now he is giving false hope to kids. I bet each time he promises and breaks, kids must be feeling a strong sense of rejection.
And when he does meet them, he makes sure that he takes pictures with them to show to everyone later to claim his close involvement in their lives.
I often meet friends who tell me - "atleast he is being a good father"
Well, SURE!
Good news however is - my kids know AND are in the process of detaching themselves from their father....
For their own sake.. I pray they do...
Anjali --
Two behaviors you just described really resonate of sociopathy. The first is that your ex always has fires at work to put out -- but that the fires are always lit by him. That is exactly what a sociopath's life is like: they are forever causing trouble but blaming others for that trouble.
And the second is how he always makes sure to take photographs of him with his children in order to "prove" what a good father he is. That, too, reeks of sociopathy: they have a need to appear noble and loving, an appearance which is at complete odds with reality.
I can practically guarantee you that your ex is telling all of his new acquaintances that he wants to spend more time with his kids, but that you prevent him from doing so.
My ex is a sociopath and it took me 19 years to figure this out.. He filed for divoce to cover up the financial mess he got into.. He dragged me through courts and spent close to 100k in legal bills. The court saw through his lies and manipulation and did everything possible for me and my kids. We moved on and he charms his way to move in back with us... He was on his best behavior for the first year. He was very insecure tracking my every move and after a while I wasn't sure why I took him back. I never married him again just because I didn't want me to drag to courts again. 3 years into his coming back I was daitnosed with breast cancer and he moves out in a week. Leaving me to take care of my kids. All my family is in another country. As if this is not enough he goes to his native country and marries a young girl who is 16 years younger than him and with in 9 months the baby is due any day.... To be honest with you dealing with the heart break has been the most difficult thing than dealing with this recurring cancer. Finally I feel I'm moving forward for the best. Reading blogs like this and the fact that he's abusing his new wife have been helping me to recover. He's a lonely man and he wanted this wife to be trophy for him and he's not happy to have this kid. The other day he tells my kids that I ruined his life. He tells his new wife before they got married was that that I had cancer and I am mentally insane.
Sony --
Falling for a sociopath is understandable, but once you've learned your lesson, you should have known better than to take him back. But yes, they can be very charming and also seductive. It's their stock in trade. Sorry to hear about your cancer, good luck with that. Once you -- hopefully -- get over it, you can view that and your ex in the rear view mirror and regain both your physical health and mental equilibrium and you'll see that cancer was in fact the bigger, more important challenge. He's not worth agonizing over, believe me.
Hello John,
I believe I am a sociopath. I can manipulate with the best of them. Life has always been one big game to me. In my early years i lived in a drug riddled home and was neglected. I was left in messy diapers for days, my mother even ate my baby food because she was hungry, leaving me hungry. Eventually around two or three I was adopted by my grandparents. They spent my whole life loving me, and caring for me. The reason I bring up lack of love, and the neglect in my early life is because I guess that can possibly cause sociopathic behaviour. I am now 26 I have a girlfriend and two kids one is not my blood she is 6, my blood daugher is now 8 months.
I have a heightened sense of self and love being in control. I am always 10 steps ahead of everyone around me. I have a very high IQ right around 180, and spend every waking moment learning anything I can, I will even neglect responsibility to learn. Danger does not phase me. Being shot at several times I have had plenty of encounters with it. One time I was pushed down and 3 shots were taken at my head, as I rolled to avoid the shots I laughed in the shooters face and then proceeded to chase him. Another time a shot was taken point blank while I was in a vehicle I ducked and slammed my buddy into his seat, to keep him from being shot, although he was shot. I then chased the two shooters with a knife then ran back to my buddy to help with his wound. I got the best nights sleep ever that night. All the blood and intensity. I treat my girlfried morally wrong, I have talked to other girls on two separate occasions, the first time it was 5 girls, the second it was almost 20. I have never cheated though. I can be very mean and degrading to both my girl and her daughter. I am often the cause of many tears. I neglect responsibility with my daughter often. I spend a lot of time in bars, one because I like to drink and two because its a great place to people watch and study people and test my mind bending skills on people. I have not felt love as long as I can remember. Nothing anyone does is ever enough. I have known I am a sociopath for quite some time now. I recognized it early on. I am very manipulative, although I don't really lie. I am rather quite honest. I do this by inserting other truths into situations so I have truths to fall back on to bend situations so I don't have to lie, but rather divert the situation to one of my fall back truths, and change the course of topics or situations so I can be truthful. Which actually may be worse than lying, as I feel I actually hypnotize those around me. When I speak to people, I know how to make them uncomfortable/comfortable, I can direct there mind to a place I want it by doing that and I use that to advantage, often. Anyway, Here's the thing, I've been having dreams lately about LOVE. I think I actually felt real love in my dreams. The past week or so I have been thinking maybe I can feel that in real life. Suddenly I want to make people smile and be happy, but I want to do it without manipulation. I want to Love for real. I really want to feel it. Like my dreams. I want to be the one who brings it to those around me. So I guess I'm asking should I Leave everyone and disappear to allow real love into their lives? Or Do you think that I could actually be changing? I know they sociopaths don't change because they don't want to. But I want to! Not everything though. I just want to change for my circle... family and friends or well, friend. I want to actually LOVE them and allow myself to feel it back. Think it could actually be done?
Anon --
If everything you say is true, I think you can change your behavior, but I doubt you can change who you are internally. Changing who you are externally would certainly be a worthwhile objective, though.
This would be the test as to whether you feel love: if anything happened to your girlfriend or daughter, would you actually be so sad that you would weep for at least a week and feel that you had a hole in your heart that would never be filled? I don't mean said in a I'm-going-crazy-and-have-to-take-it-out-on-someone sort of way, but genuinely sad.
I'm sorry, but I doubt you'd feel that way, based on your description of your other thoughts and actions. It sounds as if you have the sociopath's standard emotional invulnerability. But again, changing your behavior so that you're kinder to them would be very worthwhile. And I believe you can do that, at least for a while. On another level, as Kurt Vonnegut (I think) once said, we re who we pretend to be.
Mr Craig,
I can't thank you enough for all this. It is SO HELPFUL when wrestling with thoughts and doubts, to be able to read your comments and those of your correspondents.
Only recently have I begun wondering if the term sociopath applies to our son. Perhaps you've explained it above, or can you direct me to an article somewhere, some of the unique characteristics or differences between sociopathy and other conditions?
He does not care for anyone, except as they can feed his ego. He does have friends and I can't say this extends to them, so I'm waiting and watching. But it's definitely true of his family and all the people we know who know him. (The friends I'm not sure of are very nice young people (our son is 20) but not in our circle. I think maybe they are important to him largely because they are outside of our family's circle of acquaintance. They are "his.")
His siblings were his toys. He'd push their buttons until they'd lose it and fire back, often physically (I mean he'd push them to that extent) then he'd pretend he was really hurt and they were the wrong ones.
All his life he begged for a dog. He was about 11 when I let him get one; he bought a terrific mixed breed with his own money; $400! This is about the greatest dog in the history of the world, but our son regretted his purchase and has always treated the dog with thinly veiled disdain. As our son has matured this hasn't changed at all except his negative comments have more wit.
He met discipline when young with stoicism. Nothing is ever his fault. He goes on and on about how his siblings, and others, have wronged him. He is a brilliant, recreational, compulsive liar and always has been. Okay, I sound like the worst dad in the world, talking about my son this way, but we have three other kids and they don't display ANY of this kind of behavior. I'd have to be blind not to notice that something is up.
What are indicators I'd use to help me know whether this is sociopathy or narcissism? Or something else?
And then, what would I do with that information once I have it?
I feel that I had a big part in this. I don't really love, it's very complicated but I know I don't feel as others do. Along with my siblings, we did not receive what I call love. Our parents did what they understood as their duty by us. They didn't mistreat us. But neither of them had real love to offer us. My siblings are like me, can't feel love. But we are kind, we are empathic, we cry at others sufferings, we are basically honest, we have moral standards (that we don't always live up to). My oldest daughter is one of the most loving people I've ever met, with very strong attachments to others. So it's interesting to see that kids can be so different and that a father like me does not necessarily clone his heart in his kids.
Anyway, relative to my questions above, I'd be very grateful for any help. You told the woman with the daughter that you usually recommend creating as much distance as possible, but since it was her daughter, that would not be very possible. What can a parent do? And how should I live through this with our other kids? They adore him---though they are becoming wise to his tendencies. (He's the youngest of four and very funny and cute---an excellent mimic, can be the life of the party. Just not nice!) Should I talk it over with them and advise strategies for damage control? Protecting their hearts, their wallets, etc? (He does not hesitate to accept any generosity offered, but never returns it. He does not give gifts at birthdays and Christmas---he's "only" a college student and has "no money." I've yet to point out to him that there are countless people who have next to nothing and yet manage to give very thoughtful gifts . . .)
Sorry so long! Like a dam bursting . . . and thank you again. What a generous gift you are giving.
Anon --
To be honest I don't see this blog as a gift to others, it's largely just an opportunity for me to vent, but thank you.
OK, here goes. Yes, your son probably is a sociopath. So far what you've described is someone who is quite narcissistic, and manipulative, but he hasn't real done anything really destructive. When you first mentioned the dog, I thought that the story might end with him having killed it "accidentally" somehow. But he's merely disdainful of it, (I'm assuming he hasn't tortured it or done anything like that).
As far as not giving gifts, that's not that uncommon for kids, though I don't understand how he could have had $400 at age 11 but now as a college student doesn't have the money to buy anything. But he'll learn soon enough that he's going to have to reciprocate if he wants anything.
But the one thing you've said which is the scariest is that he's a "brilliant, recreational, compulsive liar." Narcissists tend to spin the truth to suit them, and always see themselves as better than they are. But they don't embroider out of whole cloth, and it sounds as if that's what your son is doing. So, unfortunately, yes, he's probably a sociopath -- although so far, at least, he hasn't been particularly destructive, merely selfish and manipulative.
You seem to have a pretty good handle on it -- the best thing to do is probably to just sit the others down and tell them to be careful in their dealings with him. (Of course, if this gets back to your son, he'll see himself as wronged and be bitter forever against you.) Alternatively, you could just educate them about sociopathy without mentioning your son, and let them come to their own conclusions. If your son is a compulsive liar, the others have to know it by now, and they will make the connection. (There's plenty of literature available, as well as plenty of stuff on the internet, including on this blog.)
Other than that, just be careful. Again, so far he hasn't done anything truly destructive, at least you haven't described anything like that. There's a slim possibility he's just narcissistic rather than sociopathic, especially if that lying is done for the sake of entertaining others, or for humor, as opposed to self-aggrandizing, or larcenous purposes. But sport lying is a scary thing, usually indicative of a host of other undesirable traits.
If you want a description of sociopathy (and how I learned about it) take a look at this post:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/08/how-i-became-interested-in-sociopathy.html
(At the end there's a sort of summary of the characteristics of a sociopath.)
Hi there. I'm wondering what you might make of my boyfriend - part of me thinks he might be a sociopath, but another part of me thinks he can't be. Really, I just don't understand the deep complexity of human psychology enough to know. I've always thought antisocial personality disorder exhibited with a lack of emotion and empathy among other things.
I've been with my boyfriend for 7 years now. He has always been a very quiet, though quite well-liked person. He isn't what you would call shy as he does not feel nervous at all with people, though he speaks rarely. We met as teenagers and within 3 months of dating, I was pregnant. I should mention that I have been diagnosed with depression & anxiety, have poor impulse control and am often ruled by emotion rather than logic.
We stayed together and now have a 5-year-old daughter. He is a good father, in that he ensures that she is healthy and safe and happy, though he has never shown real emotion toward her or me. I have never seen him look greatly happy, sad or even angry. He laughs and smiles and generally passes as a regular guy, but in knowing him so closely I've increasingly sensed that something was "off". In all the fights we've ever had, he has never once become emotionally charged, and reacts to even the most intense anger/sadness from me with a straight face and a complete lack of empathy.
He has lied several times throughout our relationship, saying that he wants to get married but always putting it off for one reason or another, and does the same when I discuss having more children. He has said "soon", "next year", etc. and then taken it back more times than I can count. I recently brought this up and he said calmly that he lied because he didn't want me to leave him. I said half jokingly that he must be a sociopath if he could lie so easily with no remorse. He replied, "It's funny you say that, because I've been thinking I might be one too". He went on to admit that he doesn't know if he has ever really "felt" anything and that he simply knows how he SHOULD feel in certain situations. He said that he thinks he loves my daughter and I and that he has no desire to use us for his own gain or benefit, but that he really isn't sure what love is. He said he doesn't understand empathy and that he is entirely unaffected by the sadness, happiness etc of others.
I feel that a real sociopath would never admit any of this, but at the same time, I believe he knows that I am 100% loyal and committed to him and that I could never find it in myself to leave or betray him.
Can one be a sociopath without showing any truly destructive behaviour? Is this what a so-called "high-functioning" sociopath is? Or is this just a lack of emotions? He is the same way with his family and feels no strong emotional attachments to his parents or siblings, though he thinks he "loves" them in the same way he loves me and our daughter.
Anon --
I don't think your boyfriend is a sociopath, though I'm not sure what he is. Few sociopaths are "quiet," and none are "well-liked," at least in the long run. Few could be described as "a good father," or responsible, and it sounds as if your boyfriend is responsible.
Plus sociopathy comes with a host of other traits, none of which you've mentioned. They're manipulative, destructive, impulsive, and delight in others' downfalls. They're narcissistic, and see themselves as better than they are in all sorts of arenas. And despite the fact that they victimize others, they always see themselves as the victim.
You haven't mentioned any of these things, so I doubt he's a sociopath. As far as the lying, the ones you've mentioned are not the self-aggrandizing type that a sociopath indulges in, but more the normal types of obfuscations men will engage in when pressured by their girlfriends to get married and have more children.
At first I was going to suggest that he might be mildly autistic, but the fact that he "isn't what you'd call shy as he does not feel nervous around people" would argue against that. I wouldn't rule that possibility out, though; the lack of affect makes him sound mildly autistic, and the "laughs and smiles and passes as a regular guy" does sound a little Aspergery. (On the other hand, Aspies often feel quite empathetic/sympathetic.)
One thing about sociopaths, they generally don't wonder about whether or not they are. Once they find out what it is, they just accept what they are, and sort of revel in it ("if that's how society wants to label strong people, let 'em"). Your boyfriend isn't reveling in it, it sounds as if he's just sort of wondering about it.
Just so you know, a "high-funcitoning" sociopath generally refers to one who's intelligent and successful, and is able to keep his masquerade up for a long time. Think Bernie Madoff, or Bill Clinton.
Anyway, as far as what your boyfriend is, I'm not sure what to tell you. I don't think he's a sociopath, though.
GEZZZ, I'm nauseous, after reading your statement that once they figure out what they are they revel in it, I'm still trying to understand and except that the person I married, mostly is a sociopath, whatever his dx, it has been so destructive in the lives of his family, partners, and anyone that deals with him. I am trying to put myself back together, trying to figure how to forgive myself, and at times I think the reality of it all makes me wish that I'd wake up from this nightmare. I just can't wrap my head around it, that the person I thought I new never existed, and just how evil this person truly is. The term that sometimes it takes losing nearly everything to gain ones freedom is true, I am still struggling with the nightmares, intrusive thoughts, and the feeling that just when I think I'm at a place of turning my situation around and feeling somewhat normal again, that he will do something else to deliver another blow to our lives. Why can't these sick miserable souless creatures jump off a bridge instead of their insane belief that YOU caused them to be what they are? It appears that I am going to be paying the rest of my life for not seeing this creature for the monster he really is, and I cont to have no contact even though I do have court grounds to persue, and what for? So he can continue his sick perverse sadistic crap...when one of the best lawyers in tx tells you, you have grounds and can collect judgement but he will make sure you won't collect a penny. I should have known when his next prey called me and announced that she was sleeping with my husband, and I told her I deserved better and they deserved each other, I should gave realised that the next am when he called me and through his rage, stated that I almost messed up his good deal, meaning her with her home, 401K, money and friends, and no children that this was a monster, so what if his wife of 20 yrs had ju s t found out he was cheating, and that he was abandoning his 14 yr old daughter, in everyway he could and making her life a living hell with his threats and court violations. All the sick shit cared about was I was messing up his good deal, by upsetting his girlfriend. I don't know , I've searched and prayed to get past this but it has destroyed my view of the world, ppl, and life. The once responsible, trusting, and zest for life person, is broken financially, emotionationally, spiritually, he raped me in everyway he could get away with, and then has the insanity to still tell me after 4 yrs, because I left him...why don't these ppl blow their miserable sick selves off the earth, bc they have remarried, started over and are conning someone else, and having a blast knowing they shit all over tgeir children, family, and it's everybody else's fault that their children want nothing to do with them, that these creatures leave a trail of destruction and damage everywhere they go. When the last time he popped up unannounced ced, and cont threatening, and verbally abusing me, I said I guess it's true you really are a sociopath and you should be in prison for what you did to us...he just smiled and reveled in it...and I was dumbfounded, I thought, you idiot I just told you that as far as society is concerned you a a freaking loser! And he was grinning! What an idiot!
Lacie --
if you really want to see what sociopaths are like, take a look at these two posts. First this one:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-quintessential-expression-of.html
And then this one:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-quintessential-expression-part-ii.html
And then be happy that you didn't lose your life. I'm not arguing with anything you've said, but one thing I would remind you of is that sociopaths are a small percentage of the population, maybe 3 or 4%, and you had the misfortune of getting mixed up with one, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of good people out there, and you shouldn't let the sociopath rob you of all the joy you might feel in the future. That would be letting him score the final victory, in a "letting the terrorists win" kind of way.
So do your best to find someone new and be happy. That would serve your ex right (in a "living well is the best revenge" sort of way).
I too was a sociopath. I changed one day when I really came to realise how much I was hurting my children. My mother is a full on narc. I was tormented by her my whole life. I was doing it to my children. I changed for them. I truly love my kids. I would do anything for them. If I can change, please believe anyone can. I was an evil, mean, manipulative,conniving, bitch. I still sometimes am with men. But never to my kids. They are all I love for.
Your situation sounds just like mine.To me it sounds like you have borderline and dependant personality traits. You know that you are being treated badly but your fear of loneliness and abandonment is preventing you from walking out the door. If he is a sociopath you cant change him. You can only change you. You need to put physical space between your relationship and take up interests or hobbies which build up your self esteem. From own experience it is particularly and conflicting to not still feel love for him because you have too much empathy for your abuser.
PART 1
John:
Appreciate your time and efforts in keeping these blogs alive with insightful comments while keeping the discussions civil.
I grew up in South India, where cultural norms rule every aspect of one’s life, especially if you are a girl you are subjected to greater pressure to live within the boundaries of society and cultural thumb rules. Power resides with elders, hence parents are allowed to exercise power over their children no matter what their ages are. Though I have not lived in this US in 1800s or 1900s, I think some parts of Indian society is like 1800 USA. When one is born in this environment, your ability to think independently is frowned upon. When a child is abused by an elder, the child hurts inside but has to carry on respecting elders outside. In this scenario if mother is a sociopath, a child grow up to live an emotionally balanced adult life is slim to none. I hope this gives a clear picture of operating mechanics of Indian Society.
Now my individual story. My mother lost her mother when she was only couple of moths old. Her father remarried a short while after his wife’s demise abandoning his only child. My mother was brought up by her grandfather, though she grew up in a wealthy family but she never experienced parents’ love and tasted riches that come from interacting with a sibling. She grew up in an Indian village, with no schooling, no running water or electricity. Probably all her childhood days were filled with gossiping and activities in around the only Hindu temple near her home. She got married at age 17 to my father who is from a poorer family. My only older sister was born when my mother was 19 years and she had me when she was 23 years.
- Rene
PART 2
My earliest memory of disapproving (only internally, culturally can’t disagree with an elder outwardly) my mother’s behavior was around age 10. I noticed she was emotionally abusive towards my father’s mother. She didn’t show any inhibition for breaking cultural norm for disrespecting an older person. Her reason was, her mother-in-law didn’t have money so she is a bad person deserves bad treatment. Over years, I understood my mother’s contempt towards my grandmother is because my mother didn’t want to share my father with anyone else, she wanted to have a complete control over him and his earnings. In that culture, if you don’t have a male child, you were a bad person, my mother took this to the nth degree. Probably my mother experiences severe pain and hurt when anything is denied to her. So she came up with a clever idea of “converting” me to be her son, she didn’t find a need for two daughters anyway. Over years, my mother kept defining and refining what it means to have a girl playing the role of her son which included I escorting my older sister whenever she goes out on the street, doing hard labors in and around the house, taking responsibility for her financial future. Even though I was only 12 when this “sex” change was bestowed on me, I started to feel this is wrong, they may be elders but they are wrong. Once I got that thought it only grew and grew over years, I started noticing the choices they were making for me were not for my good but for her good. When my culture is shaping me to be obedient to accept anything that comes from elders as gift and also to accept that I will never be as wise as elders to know their true motivations, me having thoughts which are totally in contrary to the prevailing culture made me feel isolated and didn’t find a way to relate to others immersed in the cultural practices. The only option to put an end to this torture, I thought is to leave the country and put distance between me and others. I worked hard for 6 years (sometimes even have to skip eating to save up money) to apply for Ph.D. program in American Universities. Fortunately I got admission with scholarship and could complete it successfully. But swimming against the current for so long left me weak and couldn’t fully apply myself for the career challenges that followed, so couldn’t climb up the career ladder. Let me stop here, I know that you got the drift of damages I sustained for being born as daughter to my mother.
- Rene
PART 3
John:
Being isolated from family, culture and society, I sought external help to understand the events of my life. My professional counsellors advised me to accentuate my individuality to detach myself from my parents; that helped to some extent but not completely.. My spiritual teachers explained away my past karma creates the current events in my life; that made me accept the things but didn’t alleviate my pain. When I started reading about Sociopath and Psychopath (best book on this topic that I read is: Without Conscience by Robert D. Hare) traits, that is when I experienced maximum healing. I am convinced that my mother is very smart in studying people’s needs and weaknesses and put them to her benefits; also I know she actively isolated one from others to control each individually; she uses cultural and religious norms to her advantage; she also does not think she is creating suffering for others because of that she does not feel remorse. She meets most of the requirements to qualify as sociopath. BTW she does have thin lips. But the things that do not apply to her are: she is well liked by many - may be people like to gossip and she gossips a lot; she is responsible and follows a routine; I have never seen her lying but she does interpret events selfishly and people credit her smartness for her narrow and unique interpretation of life events.She feels superior to others, so she doesn’t feel need to lie and she is confident that she can control anyone even if whatever she say does not make sense.
Is there degree of variation in sociopathy? Can one be called sociopath when she lives successfully within a cultural group? Is there a chance a mother’s attachment be mistaken for sociopathic controlling personality? sometimes i wonder, the price of detaching from family to escape sufferings from a sociopath worth compared to the price of giving into the sufferings. Even after reading about how and why to detach from a sociopath, it is really hard to completely shut the doors on a mother.
- Rene
Rene --
Wow, that's quite a story. You're not going to be satisfied with my answer, as it's going to sound wishy-washy to you. And I'm a little unsure about my footing here since we're talking about a culture that's alien to me. But here goes.
First, your mother's background IS the kind of background from sociopaths spring. Losing one's mother at a few months old, then being abandoned by one's father, means exactly as you imply, that there was not a long-lasting bond formed with an adult in the first several months of life, and that makes for fertile ground for sociopathy. But did your mother's grandfather love her? And was her grandmother present too? If so, they could have provided an (admittedly poor) substitute for a parent's love.
Your mother is unquestionably selfish, and trying to "convert" her second daughter into a "son" is obviously completely wrong, it shows a lack of love and concern for you. No question about that.
Hare's book "Without Conscience" is an excellent book, though my favorite book on the topic is the lesser known "The Antisocial Personalities" by David T. Lykken. But basically, the more you can read on the topic the better informed you'll be.
So, to answer your question, I'm not entirely sure. Your mother could be a sociopath, or she could just be a very narcissistic personality. As far as being well liked by many, sociopaths are in fact good at manipulating people, and can present a charming and ingratiating front. But over time, that mask tends to slip, and in the long run, people usually end up feeling used by them, and hating them. Are these people who like your mother long term friends, and people who know her well, or just a revolving circle of acquaintances?
It's also hard to say she's a sociopath if she doesn't lie, as dishonesty is part and parcel of a sociopath's personality. Merely interpreting things in one's favor -- without any outright lying -- is more typical of a narcissistic personality. Feeling superior is part of both a narcissistic personality and a sociopath's personality. (Think of sociopaths as a small subset of narcissists, the ones who are incredibly destructive in the lives of those around them.)
And gossiping, by the way, is something we all do, to some extent. Though it does sound as if your mother takes it to an extreme. (How destructive is she with her gossip? Does she try to ruin people's lives with it?)
Keep in mind, a narcissistic personality can also be very difficult to live with, and their self-centered natures will be incredibly wearing in the long run.
Are there degrees of sociopathy? Not really. As I said above, they represent the extreme end of dishonesty, lack of loyalty, impulsiveness, inability to love, lack of fear, glibness, and so on. From what you've told me, I just can't give you a definitive yes as far as your mother goes. Sorry, and sorry to answer your question with a bunch of questions in turn; I know that's frustrating for you, but I'd need to know more.
John:
Thanks for your quick response.
Having actively avoided my mother's company, don't know the full extent of her gossiping activities. But I know I am victimized by one of her gossips, that is when she poisoned my sister's mind by putting a fear in her saying that I will separate my sister from her husband and ruin her married life. I don't know why she chose that particular tactics versus something else to create a rift between her children. My mother keeps my sister's jealousy alive by feeding it; I know my mother considers my achievements as her own (may be that is how all parents feel about their children's achievements) and uses them to feel superior in turn fans my sister's jealousy. I wonder how Williams (tennis) sisters' mother keeps harmony between her children. My sister totally believed my mother and obviously distraught with fear, she confided in me; that is how I came to know about my mother's plot. In that culture, being married is everything, the minute a child is born, wheels are set in motion to his/her married life that has to begin in near future. I have never seen another culture that is so much obsessed with marriage and married life. It is almost like Jane Austin's Pride and Prejudice in real life....In this scenario, one trying to break a marriage is the villain of all villains. I have to give credit to my mother's smartness for choosing the right potent tool for the right occasion.
I witnessed my father's mother suffer in the hands of my mother. It must have been excruciating emotional pain to see her only son alienating her on the advice of his wife; I am sure there were plenty of gossips involved in rewiring my father's brain to view his mother as his enemy.
I can go on Sometimes I wonder, observing so closely another human being's activities is healthy, Sometimes I think the best way to heal from the ill-effects of another human being is to drop it like a hot potato and move on; but I have not succeeded in doing that yet though I have gotten better over time.
- Rene
Rene -
So she is lying, then, if she told your sister that you intended to steal her husband. Or, at least, that's what it sounds as if she told your sister. That does make your mother sound like more of a sociopath, especially when it's done for the purpose of creating a rift between the two sisters.
You didn't answer two of my three questions though:
"But did your mother's grandfather love her? And was her grandmother present too? If so, they could have provided an (admittedly poor) substitute for a parent's love."
And, secondly:
"Are these people who like your mother long term friends, and people who know her well, or just a revolving circle of acquaintances?"
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