This seems to get asked a lot on Google, and it's a good question.
Sociopaths usually stick up for their children, sometimes to a crazy extent (think Texas Cheerleader Mom). But mother crocodiles do likewise: they give rides to their young, put them in their mouths without swallowing them, and kill those who would prey on their young.
Yet it seems doubtful that crocodiles have quite the same tender feelings and sense of attachment that mammals do. I can't say for sure, but my guess is that reptiles, as protective as they can be, just don't seem to have the same depth of feeling.
Maybe sociopaths -- reptilian creatures that they are -- actually feel somewhat positively toward their young. They certainly know they are supposed to feel that way. But do they actually feel the same deep-seated warmth and affection that nonsociopaths do? I don't think so; they're simply not constructed that way.
Some sociopaths abuse and even kill their young. Diane Downs shot all three other children in the back seat of her car in 1983, killing one, and leaving one a paraplegic, and the third partially paralyzed in the face. When the Oregon police arrived, she blamed it on a bushy-haired stranger. But instead of being hysterical, she calmly asked the police was if the damage to the car's rear seat was irreparable.
Charlie Manson's mother, presumably as sociopathic as he, once tried to sell him for a pitcher of beer.
In 1995, Susan Smith drove her small children into a lake in South Carolina and let them drown so that they would no longer stymie her romance with a wealthy local man.
Most sociopaths, of course, do not murder their own children. But do they feel the same devotion, the same maternal or paternal protectiveness? Do they take the same playful delight in their company? It seems unlikely.
I've seen sociopaths who are proud of their children, who view them as little trophies. I've also noticed that the extent to which they want to be seen with their children depends on the child's attractiveness. But pride is an altogether different emotion than love.
So the answer to the question posed in the title of this post seems to be: not to the same extent, if at all.
This doesn't mean, however, that they are not more likely to slash you if you cross their child's path.
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«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 233 of 233John:
I am new to your blog site, don't know whether you response to my earlier comment will appear later or not. I do want to address some of the questions you raised in your previous comment. Thanks again for responding to my comments thoroughly.
You said "So she is lying, then, if she told your sister that you intended to steal her husband. Or, at least, that's what it sounds as if she told your sister. That does make your mother sound like more of a sociopath, especially when it's done for the purpose of creating a rift between the two sisters. " I didn't categorize this as a lie, I thought she is manipulating my sister with something that may or may not happen in future but used it anyway to isolate one from another. I consider one is lying only when one takes advantage of other's lack of knowledge about a fact to misrepresent that fact to that person with an intension of gaining some sort of benefit.
Yes, I apologize, I didn't answer two of questions you asked in your earlier comment. Here are my answers.
First question: "But did your mother's grandfather love her? And was her grandmother present too? If so, they could have provided an (admittedly poor) substitute for a parent's love." In my family we didn't talk much about the past. I never heard of a grandmother, so I am assuming she was diseased before or during my mother's childhood years. From the pieces of information I heard from many different people, I am assuming my mother's grandfather was an arrogant and angry man. So I know she grew up in an environment ANGER is norm. Because she feels she is entitled to the best in life, I am assuming she was pampered in her youth. In those days the whole village is like an extended family, she could have received love from some in that circle. She does keep in touch with those she grew up with. It is a different world, people don't become friends because they like each other, but because of the obligation to live together in a community.
Second question: "Are these people who like your mother long term friends, and people who know her well, or just a revolving circle of acquaintances?" Some of her inner circle friends are from her childhood years. Remember that society functions mostly on communal obligations than on individual's choices. One gets outcast only when she is irreligious or breaks society's rules but not for not supporting her children. When one is not an outcast, she can reap the benefits of the society which has better perks than the "friendship" relationship in this country. In a religious country like India, any wrong can be righted if one is religious.
- Rene
Rene --
Ah, so you found my last comment, I was afraid because after 200 comments a new page gets started that you might miss it.
Um, I'd consider what your mother said dishonest, if not an outright lie, if you have no intention of stealing your sister's husband.
But your other answers still sort of leave me in wishy-washy land. She may or may not have received affection from relatives as a youngster, even if she didn't receive her parents' love. And some of her inner circle friends date from childhood. Usually with sociopaths, they have no long term friends, as they end up doing things which embitter others in the long run.
So, I just don't know. Your mother could be just strongly narcissistic, or she could be a sociopath. I'm leaning toward the former, but I just don't know enough.
Actually, I have one more question for you: does she show a lot of false emotionality, i.e., pretend to be sad, and sympathetic, and loving, and affectionate when she is really not those thing? Does she frequently try to show how "noble" she is to other people? That tends to be a hallmark of sociopaths too.
John:
Oh yes, my mother is her own biggest fan. She revels on how great she is, and always working on others to accept her as the noblest person around. She made my life miserable and put forth every conceivable efforts to stop me from leaving India to begin my Ph.D. program in USA. When I spoke to her over the phone last week, she was crediting herself as a good mother for packing some Indian special utensils to enable me to eat indian cuisine while away from home but she totally oblivious of the tortures she had put me through. It is mind boggling to witness how she is not even aware of the sufferings she master minds for others. Unfortunately we have only one mother so we get stuck with that person for life whether she is good or bad. After my own experience, I am saddened to see how much potentiality, skills and talents do not come to fruition by having a sociopathic mother; it is a loss for the child for sure and also for the humanity as a whole.
Thanks, John, for helping me to get to the bottom of this matter.
- Rene
Rene --
Well I hope I have helped you figure this situation out, although to tell the truth I don't think I've figured it out myself. I'm still torn between narcissism and sociopathy as a diagnosis for her. (Even with the added information about her egotism.)
Anyway, good luck.
John:
I know it is hard to diagnose for sure especially if the subject is from another culture. One simple rule of measure is, if she does not recognize that she is causing suffering for another, that person lacks a part of humanity; we can assign any label we want for that person, but ultimately we all pay a price for having that person among us.
I do want you to know, even though we have not determined whether my mother is a sociopath or not, sharing these details on this blog site had a healing effect on me. I am quite pleased with your willingness to help another, that nullifies hopelessness spread by sociopaths.
Best wishes to you to continue your mission.
- Rene
Rene --
Thank you very much, and I'm glad this exchange has had a cathartic effect on you.
Best of luck with everything.
I recently watched a 48 Hours t.v. show about an attractive young woman who went missing several years ago, Shelley Mook. This story fascinated me. She was obviously killed by her "bad boy" ex-husband, Tyler Mook. The story was interesting. The ex-husband, Tyler, had a charming personality, but he was bad news. Since his ex-wife went missing, Tyler has been arrested, tried, and imprisoned for attempted murder - he had a girlfriend (post loss of his ex-wife) and tried to drown the young woman during a boating excursion. As I was doing some searching online about this man (being interested in learning more about his parents, especially his mother, I hit paydirt). Apparently, Tyler's mother is disordered, having learned that during his custody hearing with his ex mother-in-law (who had custody of his daughter), Debra Silcora (Shelley's mother), it was brought up to a judge that Tyler and his mother, Kim Mook, had told his young daughter, Lilli, to burn her maternal grandmother's house down by setting a fire under a bed. This man, Tyler, had a violent streak, hair trigger temper, a Jeckyll-and-Hyde personality. Regarding Tyler, in my mind, his mother is a sociopath herself who obviously bred and reared another sociopath.
- Susan
Susan --
You did hit pay dirt. It's always fascinating to find out the family backgrounds of these sociopaths, if you did deep enough there's usually (but not always) an "Aha!" moment. Tyler's mother does sound like a sociopath, and Tyler himself of course is. The charm, the murders, and of course the arson (which for some reason is a peculiarly sociopathic method of destruction). They say that the three signs of a future serial killer are torturing animals, late bedwetting, and fascination with fire. I guess some sociopaths never outgrow the fascination with fire.
After Tyler did away with his ex-wife, Shelley (they haven't found her body), he set her car on fire. This guy thinks that he's gotten away with her murder. Anyway, there are evil families on this earth. Shelley was a 24 year old teacher when she went missing, a beautiful woman. Her ex-husband is slime. Fortunately, Shelley's daughter, Lilli, is in the care of Shelley's mother.
- Susan
Susan --
Sociopathy runs in families, there's no question about that.
This post has gotten a lot of comments (200+). Amazing and congrats. Those who find your posts about sociopathy are oftentimes helped by the information that you share. To me, that's a good thing.
- Susan
Thank you Susan. Yes, for some reason this post turned into a bit of an advice column. I've written a lot of other posts about sociopaths and sociopath, but somehow this is the one that people come to to tell their personal stories and ask for my opinion.
Not to be offensive, and I understand the guy is probably a bad person, but there are two sides to every story. But why would this guy be obligated to buy your groceries and fix your car. I suggest you take him to court and request child support if you want to get monetary compensation from him. If you aren't together I don't see why you would be his responsibility (other than of course supporting your child, which is why id suggest going the legal route to obtain that support).
Given that there is an active CPS case and the child is posting the suicidal/morbid things I would look into filing emergency temporary orders to gain custody until it can be settled with permanent orders. I know this is an old post but maybe it can help someone reading it with a similar situation down the road...
I think my adopted daughter it's suffering from this.. However I did not know until I started reading about it and other stuff about sociopath. I only begin to look on the internet to see if I could find out what is wrong with her. Because I want a relationship with my daughter but.I feel like I'm losing my mind. Because the only time she wants anything to do with me is when she needs something from me and when she doesn't need anything. Then she is horrible to me and tells other people that I do and say horrible things. Then when she needs something for me again she either pretends like she didn't do anything to hurt me at all before. Or she says mom you know I didn't mean any of that stuff and I love you so much. Which gets me every time. Because I love her and I want her to reciprocate that love back to me. And I want to see my grandchildren. And if I don't play along and be nice and do what she wants. I don't get to see them . Is there any way that I can help her not be a sociopath. I don't want to cut ties with my daughtet and my grandchildren. I worry about my granddaughter. I would love to raise them. But there's no way she would allow that. Because it would make her like a bad mother. Or at least that is what she thinks. She always has to have them dressed perfectly in bows and everything and she always has to have pretty stuff so that everyone looks at them and thinks that everything is wonderful and that she is a perfect mother. I just don't know what to do. She lies on top of lies and then lies more. She has destroyed so many people's lives. Anyone who has ever tried to date or marry her. She has been married twice and is going through her second divorce right now. And she's just out to utterly destroy this man and his career in the military. And has absolutely no conscience about it whatsoever. She just completely destroyed anyone's lives, that becomes involved with her at all. Us, her adopted parents, her adopted siblings any boyfriends or spouses. And I honestly don't know what to do. I don't want to lose her but. I'm so tired of being hurt over and over and over again. And the thought of losing my grandchildren is almost more than I can stand. Especially seeing as how I know the only affection and love they get is for me and my husband. WHAT DO I DO???
Anonymous --
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but there's nothing you can do. You're right, your daughter is a sociopath, and she will never change. She will make your life hell, as best she can, just as she always has and has evidently also done to so many other people. My advice would be to just keep your distance. Bear in mind, there's a very good chance that your adopted daughter's children will themselves grow up to be sociopaths; she, not you and your husband, are the primary influence in their lives (unfortunately). And they will grow up sensing that their roles in her life are not to be the recipients of her affection but rather to be her little dress up dolls to be carted around and shown off.
I've heard of a lot of cases where well meaning parents adopt a child who has spent the first year or two of his or her life without having formed a strong bond with a mother, and as a result is basically programmed to be a sociopath. And after that point, no matter how much love and affection the adoptive parents lavish on the child, it's too late: they've got little sociopath on their hands, and there's noting to be done. Look up some of the stories about Romanian orphans who were adopted by American parents, there are a lot of horror stories of children who were adopted after the age of two, children who grew up terrorizing the rest of their families.
So, I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but there's basically nothing you can do. If I were you, I'd just keep my distance.
Hello Anonymous posted at January 20, 2017 at 12:33 AM:
I feel your pain as I experience that level of pain in the hands of my mother. As John and others make it abundantly clear that it is not possible to do anything to alter the behavior of sociopath. Given that it seems we are helpless but to suffer if we have to interact with a sociopath in our life. But we have an option, though we can't change others especially a sociopath, we have a choice to learn everything there is to know about sociopaths so when we do interact with them we can keep it in our mind we are dealing with a person who is not a "real" human being. Personally I benefited from watching to Dr. Judy's videos on her youtube channel. Here is the link for her channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_w7etJ_FlU), hopefully you will derive comfort listening to her.
-Rene
I grew up with my grandparents in a Communist country. They were both orphans of World War ||. When I was 3 I realized that my grandparents hated humanity and where not good with kids. I knew I was different from them, because I behaved differently. My grandfather was a strange man he called me a mistake than needs to be fixed and I was send to night school K-10 grade. Partially because both of them worked. Truthfully because one of them had mental health problems. If I told you that they had college education and 1 of them had a good paying job, as a CEO of a Nuclear power plant nobody would believe me.
One of my first memories was throwing away his alcohol bottles because he was scary. When I went to kindergarten I could not have any friends come over to my place because I was afraid that they would do something horrible to them. Like they did with me. Ex. Pour alcohol on my hair and set them on fire. I liked being better at school then being at home. Did they love me? On the surface and in front of others they did. I was also well behaved, socially outgoing and a good student. So that made them proud of having me as their grandkid.
However it was short lived, because one of them always brought me to places where there were half brothers and cousins involved and beat on them. I remember going around and apologizing for their bad behavior. Then comforting cousins saying things like they didn't mean the things they say. They had no childhood so on and so forth....etc
To make long story short, and answer the above question. They loved me. It was a dysfunctional type of love. When I went to my friends houses I saw how they got treated and what normal love looked like.
Anon --
that's a pretty dysfunctional background all right. My sympathies.
My ex said the same to me. Didnt want me just baby. Hes taken her from me now. Havent seen her in 8 yrs
Wow ive never heard of anyone admitting that. Thankyou for your insight
I was diagnosed a sociopath and a psychopath and I'm a very good mommy I absolutely love my sons more than myself more than life. My little one is just like me I know that I'm feeling a real feeling of love not because I'm "supposed" to but because I do. They might be the only two humans I've ever loved but I do love them.
Im a sociopath and am 7 months pregnant i dont see my self loving my kid but i dont see me hating him. I feel nothing for my parents and everyone around me but i think it would be slightly different with my child for some reason .i can see myself caring for him to a certain extent.
I will admit i am one aswell i have full custody of my son i constantly feel as though i should love him and as thoigh in my own way i do love him and i tell him i do. But i will also admit that i have very much pride with him and i am constantly doting over how well hes doing and how bright he is, he had to have gottwn his intelligence from his father although also a sociopath the worst kind...he was abusive so we left. You dont believe there will be any repercussions for my son do you comming from not one but two sociopaths? If there is Ill deal with it. But I wouldnt wish this fate on anyone. Granted I enjoy it its peaceful dreamless,if i sleep that is..but it gets confusing had my firat experience at a funeral....i was shit at it...all i wanted to do was joke around and lighten the mood in the place and then i remembered ohbyeah im supposed to be mourning the death of my cousin here....i should at least look sad.
I just wonder how the teacher "friend" and others slept with him? Did they know that he is taken? Bc then I wonder what people they are..
I recently found out that the man I was with was so good in his deceit that he hid that he had already a woman pregnant, married her and made me believe he is a decent, hard working guy... And lied to my face each time I asked if there are others or if he is married or secretly married... Therefore if i had known...its a no go for me! In the long run I noticed his lack of empathy or understanding of feelings other than his own, figured out his pathologic lies, kids with other women. Not sure if his now wife figured out that he has betrayed all of us... He's 29 using words and charm to hide his true actions...i have the better card...but the wife...wow...i dont know...i think the damage can only get bigger with time
I have a sincere question. My father is a sociopath. I am 36, and only recently I have done research because I was appalled at my own lack of emotion for him, ability to refuse to help him, drive him to hospitals (he's also an alcoholic) and complete lack of any emotions about his declining health. No, I'm lying: I have an emotion, it includes an irish jig and his grave, if you get my drift. Normally I am a compassionate and gentle although defensive person with confidence and trust issues. I am a bodybuilder, I love the sport but I also wanted to be big and strong to ward off my father's aggressive behavior. I beat him up when I was 17 after he assaulted me because my cat scratched him. After that, his abuse was mostly emotional. He always lied and played mind games, and tried to wrap you up in words and make you feel like everything is your fault or that you're crazy. If he lost an argument, he'd only wait for you to turn your back and do whatever he wanted anyway. He could never admit to anything, not even stuff like "did you finish that pot roast?" If you confronted him about his lies, he called you a liar. He knew exactly what ticked who off and jabbed the daggers into right places. He paid and still pays attention to people only when he needs favors or when he wants to piss you off and enjoy your wiggling.
By the time now, everyone gave up on him, and we do things for him and help him because we don't want to live knowing we're the people who left a family member to die in a gutter,not because of HIM.
In his stories, however, he is a poor man unloved and wronged by his family who don't care about him and discriminate against him because he didn't go to college (gods..). We are all evil people who abuse him.
My question is: how, WHY on earth do people lap these stories up? I know my experience made me cautious and perceptive, but doesn't "everyone hates me" and "nobody wants to be my friend" raise a flag of "hang on, what DO these everybody know about you, that they choose to block you out?" How likely is it that this one poor, sad, wonderful person just happened to run into so many awful people, and not ONE good one? How likely is it that it's EVERYBOY ELSE and not THEM? He married 3 times before and they were ALL bitches? Really?
How DO you fall for that?
I am not asking because of what my father says to other people - theres no one left to listen anyway. I am asking because I want to understand why my mother and all these other people actually fall for something as unlikely to be true?
Adri --
The answer to your question is basically, because sociopaths are generally very good liars. Because they have no qualms, and no inhibitions, they are able to lie without any of the telltale signs that most people have when they tell an untruth. There's no little catch in the voice, guilty looking away, or hesitancy. When they lie, they speak just the way most people do when they're telling the truth. They're also very glib, and good at covering their tracks, i.e., good at covering up one lie with another.
Once people get to know them, and realize they've been lied to, the sociopath will find himself in a difficult spot, as he's lost credibility; and as often as not, he'll just go look for newer victims to take advantage of. But this is a little harder to do with family.
And you're right, when someone complains about everybody, it's a sure sign that the problem in the relationships stemmed from him, not them.
Hi, For years I thought my ex had schizophrenia or MPD but after reading this site I am wondering if his behaviour has all been an act to escape responsibility and to get away with crime. Basically I first met my ex (karl) in 2006 I was dating his best friend at the time. They fell out and it was bitter. Then 6yrs later I become friends with my ex Karl and he says he's changed and that he's new age spiritual. I had just turned to Christianity. He was like my best friend and we dated on and off. Looking back now he was clearly using me and wanted me to be new age like he was. He would say things like he was on the planet to make world peace and cleanse himself of all negativity but when he made mistakes it wasn't him it was his Ego. He was also still hooked on his ex who he had been abusive to. In the end it was like dealing with 4 different personalities and i left him. But in Feb 2013 he said he loved me, wanted marriage and a baby and said we were meant to be, that he had visions etc. I fell for it and got pregnant. I then moved in with him which was a mistake as that was when I saw his true colours. He was secretive, violent and controlling of everything I said and ate. I was never thin enough or good enough in his eyes. His main words for me were "thick c***" I had nowhere else to go so I went back to him 12 times in total whenever I would see a glimpse of the man I thought he was, the one that spoilt me like a princess at first. When our daughter arrived he did cry and i was shocked but a few hours later he was back to shouting at me etc. Looking back now i think he only planned to have a child with me to get back at his friend my ex but to also try and win his mom's love and attention and to push his ex wife out of the family but that didn't work. My family said he would change once I had the baby and he got worse. His sister in law who is a mental health nurse came to see me when our daughter was 2wks old and she said, "Karl can't cope with change, he needs his routine and if my manager heard the stuff he says, Karl would be sectioned". I told Karl's mother and she was furious and denied it all. They know he has a problem but refuse to admit it. Karl my ex would sometimes get me back with sob stories such as, "when his mom screamed at him as a little boy because he needed to go to the toilet and she threw a toy at him" Anyway sorry for the long story but by 2015 when my ex chased me with a carving knife frothing at the mouth I finally left for my daughter's sake. I had also chose not to put my ex on the birth certificate and i refused for our daughter to have his surname. He has no legal rights. I'm old fashioned and i have tried everything for my daughter and her father to have a relationship within safe perimeters. In 2017 I got a non molestation order on him and tried to get him to see our daughter in a contact centre. He refused. No matter how fair I have been he just keeps lying saying I'm stopping him from seeing her. He's damaged my reputation. He clearly wants revenge and is out to destroy me. His attitude is if he can't see our child when he wants and do whatever he wants then he wont bother he will just turn her against me when she's older he says. I just don't understand how he could be ok with a contact agreement one week and then the next week be a totally different person and cause so much trouble. He's so Jekyll and Hyde. I stopped contact because he would say things like, "nothing bad can happen to our child because I won't attract it with my energy" he would put her and our pets in danger as if to prove he was invincible or was a lot of the time was he saying things just to cause distress. I just could never trust him fully with our child on his own. When she was born he would even say, "well if she dies then that is what is meant to be".
Anon --
I can't really help you with a diagnosis, if that's what you're looking for. You said at the start you thought he might be schizophrenic or have multiple personality disorder; it's neither of those things. (And MPD is actually so rare as to be almost nonexistent, it's far more prevalent in works of fiction than in real life.)
Your ex is a boatload of trouble, but it's not necessarily sociopathy. It could be just plain old narcissism, or it could be borderline personality disorder. But those are all Cluster B disorders, and Cluster B personalities are inevitably difficult to deal with. Best of luck.
Thank you for taking the time to read my comment and for giving your opinion I really appreciate it. I will research BPD and Narcissism. Thanks. God bless
Anon --
You're welcome, and good luck
Ok so heres my problem in a nutshell. I am a sociopath. I am aware of that fact amd have been for a while. When i became a father, i decided that even though i cant be a postive example of a good person, i can be an example of how not to be a bad person if that makes sense. So i spent the first 5 yrs of my daughters life trying to make sure i would be a decent parent for her by going to shrinks and trying meds and generally doing everything i could think of to be a better, more caring person. Having said that, understand i know i have no empathy for most people. I know full well anger is my default emotion to everything. These were the traits i worked on correcting to try and be a positive influence in my daughters life instead of the piece of shit everyone seems to think sociopaths are. I jumped thru every hoop my daughters mom put in front of me to prove i am trying to be what my daughter needs. Most people will think this ompossivle and that im just spouting nonsense to make myself look good. Heres the thing though. Its not that case. Yes i have minimal emotions but i view the matter kind of like this... take a pie and cut of 3/4 of , leaving just one massive slice and the crust all the way around. Now that massive slice is my capacity for anger. The crust is my capacity for other emotions. My potebtial for love and affection is vanishingly small compared to normal people but it does on fact exist. When my daughter was born, she took the capacity i have for love and made it all hers. Not a problem as far as im concerned. I dont really care if i love other people. 98% can fuck off and die anyways. But in doing so, she proved to me that i am capable of loving at least one individual. So i think it fitting that its my child. Yet my daughters mom continues to act like im satan incarnate. So here i am a sociopath actually trying to be a good parent and im continually told that i cant be. That its impossible for a sociopath to be a good parent. But heres the funny thing. Nobody can actually show me where im being the bad parent my daughters mom claims im being. No violence towards my daughter. No yelling and screaming and twisted standards which most people seem to think is required. And yet im accused of these things and its accepted that i did them with no proof. Even when i have proof and witnesses that can verify that i didnt. So how am i suppose to handle that without having a more typical reaction. I cant lie and say i dont feel the overwhelming need to go off on my daughters mom for keeping her away from me but i dont cuz i know thats not what my daughter needs to see me doing. Ive had people tell me i cant actually be a sociopath if i think and feel that way, to which i reply, see me when my daughter isnt around me and u will believe it. But back to my point, how should i handle this? My daughter is now 11, apmost 12 and mom and i have been locked in a custody fight for the last 3 yrs.she blames me for everything thats going qrong in my daughters life, regardless of if i could be at fault or not. So how as a sociopath attempting to be resposible, should i handle that? Id really like a normal persons input.
Anonymous sociopath --
I was about to add my voice to the chorus of people telling you you're not a sociopath if (IF) you're as good a father as you say. But then I saw what you said towards the end there.....and I believe you. I'm guessing that your daughter's mother has other reasons, reasons that had to do with your relationship with her, for resenting you, and is now taking it out on you via your daughter.
The only advice I can give you is to seek recourse legally. I don't know what else to say, since it seems the mother is determined to keep you from your daughter, and no argument will convince her to do otherwise.
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