Most people with Aspergers, or with any form of autism, don't shoot up elementary schools the way Adam Lanza did. In fact, most Aspies are harmless dweebs.
So the immediate temptation is to conclude that Adam was not only autistic, he was a sociopath as well.
But most Aspies are so socially inept that they couldn't be manipulative and backstabbing and skillfully dishonest even if they wanted to be. The ones I've known have been sort of pathetic and child-like. They don't understand what makes others tick, have no idea how to banter or joke around, and certainly can't bend others to their will. Most seem almost incapable of lying. And they tend to be the targets of bullies. All of which, in a way, seems to preclude sociopathy.
But it's hard to imagine anything more evil than mowing down a bunch of five and six year olds with an assault rifle. How could you do that without being utterly lacking in conscience? Has any sociopath ever done worse?
One thing Aspies do have in common with narcissists (sociopaths are a subset of narcissists) is that they don't take criticism well: nothing is ever their fault. But whereas sociopaths are adept at coming up with glib excuses, Aspies come up with lame ones. Aspies also have little self-control, and get upset easily. Thus, they are the opposite of cool -- which would also seem to preclude sociopathy.
Lanza also had that weird medical condition where he couldn't feel pain. Given that Aspies always seem to have a hard time imagining people being different from themselves, maybe he had no concept of the pain that he was inflicting on others.
And who knows, maybe you don't even have to be on the autistic spectrum not to be able to imagine what you can't feel. Maybe it's a little like understanding colors when you're blind.
Which puts Lanza a little less in the evil camp, and more in the crazy camp.
From what we've heard so far, it sounds as if Lanza's parents genuinely loved him, which also generally means a child will not be sociopathic. (That's a hard one to measure, though: there are plenty of families which look good from the outside but which produce sociopaths because the parents were only going through the motions.)
It's a bit of a quandary. It's impossible to imagine someone with Aspergers as a functioning sociopath. Yet it's hard to imagine someone with a conscience killing those innocent children.
I just don't know.
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Interesting that we are now reading that the Wyoming boy who killed his college professor father in a classroom did so because he blamed his father for causing his Aspergers. The timing of the two cases could be a coincidence, but maybe those with Aspergers are more capable of violence than realized. Part of the lack of self-control?
Anon --
Good question. Could be that, and could also be the lack of empathy. They seem to have a harder time putting themselves in others' shoes.
My ex girlfriend said she had aspergers. It turned out that it was a cover for her shockingly vindictive sociopathy. An excellent excuse indeed. Lacking in empathy and being socially inept does explain some horrible behaviour. What revealed it was how great a reader of others she was. Played everyone like puppets, including me. Dumped her as soon as I twigged.
She gives genuine aspergers folks a BAD name.
Ampledresalambert --
That's an interesting story, and it does sound exactly like something a sociopath would do.
I knew a sociopath once who claimed to have cancer, she used that as an excuse for her impulsive and selfish behavior. I have since been forever grateful to her for having taught me about sociopathy.
Here’s a motive for Adam Lanza’s massacre – Adam was raped by a local, convicted Catholic priest, Fr John Castaldo, when Adam was 6 years old, and was taking revenge against other 6 year olds. Here's the verified evidence:
http://neilallen76.wordpress.com/2012/12/19/why-adam-lanza-massacred-children-at-sandy-hook-newtown-a-theory/
It can’t be proven yet, but it is the best explanation yet for why Adam would want to take revenge against other 6 year olds, since no one protected him when he was 6 years old.
I have been on a few different sites about Aspies over the past few years because I have people in my life who I am sure are Aspies. Unfortunately. I am finding though that, lately, it is becoming more and more difficult to find sites, forums, message boards, etc.' who permit criticism of Aspies, and I find this very disconcerting. If anyone really needs to connect with other people concerning autism and Aspergers, it is the people who inevitably become caught in the wake of all the intense collateral damage that Aspies inflict on "innocent bystanders". What is really disturbing to me is that there are a few sites which feature special forums for the wives of Aspies, and upon reading them you would think that you were reading a script for a day-time romantic soap-opera. All of this "but he has such a warm heart", "he's so interesting," etc., totally invalidating themselves about all of the destructive, abusive and toxic crap that the Aspie husband has subjected them to. These wives sound very much like Alanon wives in the early stages of their recovery. It could also be that the Aspie is the female/wife, but it is usually the other way around.
I think that it is of paramount important that the friends and family of Aspies/people w/autism have a place that they can unload without having to worry about interfering with the "postitive" image that many patients, medical/psych professionals seem to want to paint of Aspies, recently. It is also truly nauseating how people try to tie in "diversity" with tolerance for all people who are "different". In a socio-polital climate where it is politically correct to accept everyone as inherently "OK", manipulative people like Aspies can literally get away with murder. Some of the most infuriating posts I've seen are regarding how, HAPPILY, some people with Aspurgers and autism have surreptitiously "masked" their symptoms into adulthood, thereby gaining access to mainstream society and "normal" people. I would think that such deception should be condemned, not condoned, and/or applauded. I know what it like to have to deal with Aspies who have found clever ways to conceal their disabilities, and I am trying to not get caught into becoming a victim of the Cassandra Syndrome. It is enough that some of my life was spent coping with people who have serious addictions, and I really don't want seriously dysfunctional people ruing my happiness, anymore. Aspies can be very cruel, destructive and mind-f*cking, and having the syndrome is nothing to celebrate; and, moreover, their disabilities should not be allowed remain hidden from others,nor, should it ever be encouraged, even if they have been asymptomatic for years. Autism and its symptoms can rear its ugly disgusting, head any time in a Aspie's life.
I am glad that I found your blog-spot, John, and I really hope that you keep your posts on Aspies/autism current and active. This is probably the only site which allows for straight talk about Aspies without vengeful hysteria, or stupid celebration of a life-altering disability. Thanks!
Anonymous --
Thank you very much for that comment. You make an excellent point about how people are allowed to talk about Aspergers. Being unable to read people and being clueless and lacking common sense are not a "gift," they are a disability. But our politically correct age does not allow for honest discussion of these traits, we're supposed to pretend that Aspies are "differently abled" or some such nonsense. There have been a few people with Aspergers whose syndrome and monomaniacal focus on one subject has allowed them special insights and abilities (Albert Einstein has been said to have had the syndrome), but the vast majority of Aspies have no special mental abilities, only special mental disabilities.
I agree with every single thing you said except the bits about how they can be asymptomatic for years and how they can be manipulative. In my experience, they can be asymptomatic for hours, if they're trying to act normal, but if you're around them, you'll pretty much get fairly constant clues as to their not being quite right in the head.
As for the manipulativeness, I've found they're really too clueless to be able to successfully manipulate people. Take a look at the third comment from the top, a commenter ("ampledresalambert") spoke about a sociopath he knew who pretended to have Aspergers. I wonder if you haven't run into one of those. Sociopaths are extremely manipulative.
PS -- If you type in "Aspergers, Aspies" in the search box at the top of the blog, all the posts I've put up about Aspergers will come up. The original post (titled "Aspergers Syndrome", from August 18, 2011) continues to get a lot of comments, both from Aspies themselves (who are resentful that I've described them accurately) and people who've had to deal with them (who are generally relieved to see that others feel the same way).
I'm really glad to have found your blog because only recently I have allowed myself to ask the question if my autistic sister is capable of intentional evil acts (http://enilina.livejournal.com/22318.html#comments). My parents blamed her violence on autism but it was really just an excuse to not deal with her, leaving me the little sister to discipline her out of that nasty behavior. Ah the miracle of immediate consequence of actions.
Enilina --
Just read some of your journal and I sympathize with your plight. Aspergers does tend to run in families and I wonder if one or both of your parents might not have had a touch of it themselves, especially since simple and all-encompassing rationalizations are symptomatic of those with the syndrome.
Here's another post you might find interesting, about the extent to which Aspies are responsible for their own behavior (there's no perfect answer):
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2013/02/are-aspies-not-responsible-for-their.html
What do you think of the infamous Gary McKinnon being completely acquitted, despite having hacked into US government computers? Surely a man bright enough to do that is also bright enough to realise that it's illegal - Aspie or not?! I think AS is a pretty lame excuse to let him walk free, since I doubt anyone with any other behavioural disorder would get the same preferential treatment, even if the disorder did affect their judgement.
With Aspies getting preferential treatment from the law like this, it wouldn't surprise me if we suddenly saw a sharp increase in sociopaths pretending to have AS to also get away with crime.
Anon --
I actually don't know anything about that case other than what you've just told me. If that's true, then yes, I agree, Aspergers is not enough o fan excuse.
And yes, it makes sense that more sociopaths would pretend to be Aspies if it is an effective way to get off. Heck, why not use sociopathy as an excuse while they're at it. ("But your honor, I couldn't help but rape and kill all hose girls, Im programmed to do that kind of thing.")
Using sociopathy as an excuse wouldn't work though - no one extends sociopaths the same sympathy they give to Aspies - even when they commit similar acts. I guess the social awkwardness gives Aspies the 'innocent look', even when they're charged with crime? ("Oh, but look at him - an Aspie computer nerd with a university degree *couldn't possibly* have realised that hacking was illegal, your Honour!")
"Aspies also have little self-control, and get upset easily. Thus, they are the opposite of cool -- which would also seem to preclude sociopathy"
I dispute that sociopaths don't get upset easily. When I first met my sociopath ex-flatmate, he seemed perfectly cool and laid-back. That was just a facade though. Just a few days after I moved in, I noticed how very minor things would upset him - things I barely noticed - such as the neighbours making a tiny bit too much noise (but nowhere near enough to wake someone up) and he ended up yelling at them and phoning the police, which seemed like an extreme overreaction. When I later started researching sociopathy, I read that being quick to anger is one of the symptoms.
Anon --
I understand what you're saying. Sociopaths are easily angered and/or annoyed. I suppose what I'm saying is that even if they are, if they have motive to, they can easily cover it up and pretend to like someone, no matter how much they hate him. With an Aspie, they're not good at covering up anything; if a meltdown is coming on, it's coming on, and there's no stopping it, even if the Aspie has good reason not to act out.
You say that an Aspie is never good at covering things up. Say an Aspie is with a psychiatrist, knowing what he is but wanting to avoid diagnosis, would he be able to hide his autism for those few hours that he was being interviewed for? Or, say the diagnositic process lasted three hours, would he eventually slip up and say something to make the psychiatrist think "yup, you're autistic"?
I know sociopaths could easily hide for three hours: heck, I've known one who fakes psychosis so he can get Disability Living Allowance from the state, and the psychiatrist who tested him for it never realised the truth (I only knew because I'd known him long enough to realise what he was like, plus the way he said contradictory things about his "psychotic symptoms"). If sociopaths can hide from psychiatrists in plain view, could an intelligent Aspie do the same? As in, could the Aspie pass as just a garden variety nerd, or would something give his autism away?
Anon --
My guess -- and it's only a guess -- is that if a psychiatrist spends three hours with an Aspie, and he's specifically looking for Aspergers, he'll probably find it. I would think that they'd have tests these days which would specifically look for literalness and an inability to read social situations which they use to diagnose Aspies.
Sociopaths, on the other hand, as you point out, are the ultimate con men. There have even been a few cases of serial killers who have, initially at least, fooled psychiatrists. One of the two Hillside Stranglers, Kenneth Bianchi, initially fooled a number of court-appointed psychologists and/or psychiatrists into thinking that he had a multiple personality disorder (and therefore would not be guilty by reason of insanity). It took a smart psychiatrist to fool him into giving himself away. To this day I'm not sure that Son of Sam was as crazy as he made himself out to be. A dog gave him orders to kill? That sounds like a psychotic or schizophrenic. But if you've seen Berkowitz interviewed recently, he doesn't come off as crazy at all, he just comes across like a guy trying to convince people that he's a new man, with his ministry and all. He actually reminded me of a few investment bankers I've known.
Pathetic article. "So the immediate temptation is to conclude that Adam was not only autistic, he was a sociopath as well."
If one uses the requirement that a "sociopath" has sufficient social skills to be dishonest and manipulate people, this conclusion is obviously false by definition. Also, it is completely false to say that "shooting these children implies sociopathy" if this definition is used. It is not clear if your definition of "sociopath" includes this requirement, since if so, why would such an absurd conclusion be "tempting"?
If instead you don't use that requirement as part of the definition of "sociopath", then the observation that most sociopaths are manipulative/have high social skills is correct (not by definition), but it should not be surprising in the least. If autism and sociopathy are unrelated, only 1% of sociopaths will be autistic (if 1% of all humans are autistic). The remaining 99% will act like non-autistic sociopaths (highly manipulative, high social skills etc).
Adam was probably both autistic and a sociopath (not using requirement above). There is nothing contradictory about this.
Anon --
You missed my point. If you've ever known sociopaths and autistics, you'll see there's no overlap. Part of the profile of every sociopath is dishonesty and manipulativeness. They're never happy with just their own company, they want to be out and about both getting other peoples' admiration and taking advantage of them. Autistics are unable to do either of these things, except in a completely passive, almost unintentional, sort of way.
So, by definition, Lanza couldn't have been both. When I stated at the beginning that it was "tempting" to conclude he was both, that was because it is unimaginable for most people to think that a non-sociopath could shoot up a school like that.
If you think that autistics can also fit the standard profile of sociopaths, you've had very little experience with both.
It is clear that a necessary requirement for someone to be a sociopath is a lack of conscience. If the person is intelligent and not autistic, it is safe to say that they will use their social skills to be manipulative and dishonest etc.
From now on I will use "sociopath" with the requirement that they be highly manipulative and therefore non autistic, but you continue to be very unclear on whether you use this as a defining requirement of sociopaths or simply that the vast majority of sociopaths fulfil this requirement. The latter is obvious because most people are not autistic, and any non-autistic person with severe lack of conscience is almost certain to use their social skills to be manipulative.
"unimaginable for most people to think that a non-sociopath..."
No, it is not unimaginable at all. Shooting up a school does not require manipulativeness or many other sociopath characteristics. The person could be autistic and lacking in conscience.
There doesn't have to be any link between violence and autism for an autistic person to be violent. Likewise, a sociopath may be violent, but the violence has nothing to do with the skills/characteristics that make them non autistic.
Anon --
You seem to want exact personality profiles which all people who have a certain diagnosis fit into, and all of whom exhibit every characteristic associated with that diagnosis. The fact is, the traits associated with sociopathy are glibness, manipulativeness, dishonesty, lack of loyalty, a lack of conscience, impulsiveness, and a lack of fear and social anxiety. These traits, for whatever reason, tend to cluster. But not every sociopath is going to exhibit every one of those characteristics, certainly not to the same extent.
And sociopaths, like the rest of us, come in a full range of IQ's, so those traits will be expressed with varying degrees of skill and slickness.
Serial killers are always sociopathic. They need to be, in order to keep operating the way they do, hiding in plain sight. Mass murderers, on the other hand, need not necessarily be sociopathic. There have been plenty who have just been crazy in some way: Charles Austin, the Texas bell tower shooter from the 1960's, had a brain lesion which affected his thinking. And others, like the Virginia Tech shooter, have been thought to possibly be schizophrenic. Lanza was by all accounts autistic, and his situation was further complicated by the fact that he had that condition where he was unable to feel pain (congenital analgesia), so, at least, was unable to identify with the physical pain he would cause.
The reason I said what I said about it being tempting to think of Lanza as a sociopath at first is because most people think that the utter lack of conscience it takes to shoot up a school denotes sociopathy. But the main point of this blogpost was that sociopathy and autism are diametrically opposed in terms of the characteristics associated with them. In any case, these are not exact sciences, which is why the last line of the post was, "I just don't know."
And yes, your last paragraph is true: anybody can be violent, and a sociopath's violence is likely to be caused at least in part by his impulsivity and lack of inhibition, which has nothing to do with the manipulativeness and (often skillful) deceit which show that he is not autistic.
I've seen a few people write about how they thought Adolf Hitler was autistic because he went off on long rants all the time, where he would talk at people rather than to them. However, many others claim he was a sociopath. Surely he couldn't be both? From having met an Aspie an a sociopath, I reckon he was more likely a sociopath. Even if Hitler was a poor conversationalist, I doubt an Aspie would have the knowledge of how to manipulate people like he did.
Gethin.
Gethin --
You raise a really interesting question, to which I don't have the answer. I've wondered myself whether he was a sociopath. His skill at manipulation people would certainly seem to indicate sociopathy. But there are two schools of thought about him: the Hugh Trevor Roper school, which says that he was a very misguided man who felt he was doing good (at least, for his people), and the other school, which says he was an evil man whose primary skill was manipulation.
It's actually a lot easier to pinpoint a guy like Josef Mengele as a sociopath than Hitler. Mengele had a cruel mother whom he hated; Hitler was adored by his mother. Mengele was personally sadistic in a very hands on fashion; Hitler was a vegetarian. Also, were Hitler more of a typical sociopath, instead of spending his youth as a failed artist (a particularly non-sociopathic endeavor), he would more likely have been some sort of successful con man.
As far as Hitler being autistic, I hadn't heard that before. I agree with you, his ability to rouse the masses would seem to preclude that.
I agree with you that Mengele is easier to label as a sociopath. He wasn't the only Nazi to conduct cruel experiments on Jews, it's just that his experiments were pointless and purely sadistic, whereas the other experiments were done in the name of science. I read a book by a female doctor who was married to a sociopath (she thinks he just made a beeline for her money) and one of her conclusions were "if you ever read about something so horrific that it makes you think 'who would do that?!', there's a high chance the perpetrator was a sociopath".
If I had to place Hitler as either an Aspie or sociopath then I would pick the latter because he was very manipulative: ordering radio broadcasters to report falsehoods to make German civilians feel good, writing in 'Mein Kampf' that he had had better grades at school than he really did and so on. There is also ample evidence that the Nazis caused the Reichstag Fire, however much they tried to pin it on that poor half-wit communist boy. Then again, there are a few things about him that would preclude sociopathy: he did have very strong political views that he had clung to throughout his life, for one. From an early age, he became obsessed with the idea that all Germanic peoples ought to unify, and expressed this even when no one else really did. Sociopaths usually don't do that: they usually adopt whichever ideology/religion is most likely to get them power and influence, making them political chameleons.
I guess Hitler will always remain a mystery....
Gethin --
(I'm assuming it's still you.) You understand the situation perfectly, and in a balanced way. I've been asked about Hitler several times before, and I always have to hem and haw and almost apologize for my reluctance to automatically label him as a sociopath. But it just wasn't that clear.
Goebbels, btw, was another one whom it IS easy to pinpoint as a sociopath.
You seem to think all such disorders need some family background to develop but I personally think there is a physiological cause for them. First, there are two kinds of empathy - affective and cognitive. Cognitive empathy is the ability to "read" other people and affective empathy is the ability to feel the feelings of other people. Sociopaths lack affective empathy but they have excellent cognitive empathy that allows them to manipulate others. Autistic people on the other hand have a lot of affective empathy and other people's pain can even become too overwhelming for them. They are like sponges, they absorb the feelings. But they lack cognitive empathy and can't read other people unless they learn how to do it but it doesn't come naturally to them. I guess that if someone lacks both cognitive and affective empathy then they are both autistic and sociopathic. It is most definitely possible although I think it's very rare.
Anon --
Good point about cognitive and affective empathy. And I agree that sociopathy and autism rarely overlap, if at all.
But where do you get that I think all such disorders need a familial/environmental component to develop? The only disorder I've said that about in this blog is sociopathy. I actually lean toward the nature side of the nature-nurture argument when it comes to most human differences. And I think that autism/Aspergers definitely has a definite genetic component. BTW, to say that a trait "runs in families" is not to say that it is environmental in origin; families share genes as well as environments.
I was under the impression that you think a child can become a sociopath only if it has the genetic makeup AND was treated poorly. I actually think upbringing has little to do with developing the disorder, it may affect the way it manifests but I don't believe even the best parents can change the psychopathic brain. Of course, I might be wrong, I'm not a specialist.
Autism has been linked with diet and mother's gut health during pregnancy. It's possible that might be the case with sociopathy as well but nobody knows. Sociopathy is very tricky and difficult to study because you can never know if the treatment has been effective and also most psychiatrists are reluctant to label a child a sociopath. But I assure you sociopaths start young, a lot of them begin their 'careers' as school bullies.
Aspie Girl --
No, I never said that both genetic and environmental factors need to be present in order to develop the disorder. It's more of an either/or situation, and it's my impression that the vast majority of cases seem to have been caused because the sociopath simply never had a close parent to bond with in the first year or two of life. This is why orphanages have historically spawned so many sociopaths. It's also why so many sociopaths turn out to have had mothers who wee alcoholics (who effectively loved their booze more than their children). If you're not loved as a child, you never develop the capacity to love.
There have been documented cases of people like PHineas Gage (the most famous example) who've undergone frontal lobe damage and have "turned into" sociopaths as a result; this would certainly indicate that organic or congenital frontal lobe damage is also a cause.
I agree that sociopaths start young, and actually disagree with the premise that sociopaths cannot be labeled as such before the age of 16. And yes, I've written fairly extensively in this blog about how bullies are often sociopaths.
As far as autism, I know, nobody knows the cause for sure. For a while in the US, they thought that vaccinations might cause it, but that theory has been tossed. My personal theory is that one of its causes might be inbreeding, but that's just a shot in the dark, I don't have that much evidence to base it on.
Is it possible that just sociopathic parents are more likely to abandon their children and that's why many sociopaths come out of orphanages? And since sociopathy runs in the family, it's possible that one of the parents was also sociopathic and that's why they treated the child poorly but the child was already a sociopath so in that case it might be just correlation, not causation.
As for autism, I believe it's genetic but environment may contribute to its severity. A child may be on the spectrum but be high functioning and certain factors can make him low functioning. The gluten and casein free diet definitely helps, many parents have been successful. I have discovered myself that since I went off gluten my anxiety has decreased and my interactions with people have become easier. The interesting thing is I did these dietary changes for other reasons before I even knew that I am on the spectrum, I hadn't made the connection between the reduced anxiety and diet until very recently. So while lifestyle can't change the way my brain is wired it can definitely make symptoms less pronounced and easier to live with.
Aspie Girl --
That's a good point about sociopathic parents being more likely to abandon their children, and if that's the case, then yes, it'd be more likely that their offspring would end up in orphanages. The argument against that, though, is that even when the parents die in an accident, or in wartime, or something like that, and, hence, the kids are actually orphans, they are more likely to grow up feral.
One of the two sociopaths I knew best had a mother whose own mother died when she was six months old. Her father then remarried, then he died when she was six. This woman grew up, literally, as the unwanted stepchild. She grew up quite bitter, understandably, had three sons, and did her best to make them feel as she had as a child -- unwanted. I knew two of the three sons, and both of them were definitely sociopaths. (I would assume the third was, too, but I didn't know him at all.) All three boys were successful, by the way.
Interesting about the diet, I hadn't heard that before.
Are you sure they are all sociopaths? There are many troubled people who are not sociopaths, maybe they have other disorders? And yes, not receiving love as a child is devastating, maybe you have heard about the orphanage in Romania where the kids who were never held died? But I'm not sure if that makes them sociopaths or contributes to the condition. I'm curious if it's possible for a sociopath to live without hurting others if he or she is properly taken care of. I have read about sociopaths coming from a normal family where their siblings are not sociopathic.
If you haven't heard about the diet approach to autism research the gut-brain connection. Gut health has also been linked to depression and other mental health problems. Chris Kresser has great articles on the subject.
Aspie Girl --
I'm not sure whether by "all" you're referring to the kids in the orphanages or the brothers I was talking about in the second paragraph. I'm sure about the (two) brothers, but I wasn't saying that the orphanages only produce sociopaths, only that an abnormally large percentage of sociopaths come out of them.
I hadn't heard about the Romanian orphanages where the kids who hadn't been held died (I would suspect other causes for that as well), but I have heard of the Romanian orphanages which offered up kids for adoption in the US, and the adoptive parents then had no end of trouble with these kids. A lot of times the kids would threaten to kill the other children in the house, or threaten to burn the house down, or somesuch, and the parents, at wits' end, would then give the kids back up for adoption again or send them to a foster home. These parents were subsequently demonized, but really, they were in an impossible position.
I have heard of the gut-depression relation. I'd heard in the past that whole wheat can exacerbate depression, and I'm sure there are other correlations as well.
"I agree that sociopathy and autism rarely overlap, if at all."
And do you agree that it is most definitely possible? You seem to be saying in this article and in your previous comments that all sociopaths have some traits which automatically make them non-autistic. (equivalently: if they were autistic, they would lack the very traits that make them sociopaths).
Anon --
Honestly, I'm not sure. They seem so diametrically opposed in some ways that it's hard to imagine both syndromes existing in the same person. But I'm always reluctant to use a word as strong as "never."
You said above: "So, by definition, Lanza couldn't have been both."
This is actually stronger than saying they never overlap. (by stronger I mean that the former implies the latter but not vice versa).
Now you're saying that "you are not sure", in which case, how can it be impossible "by definition"?
Anon --
Good point. I did contradict myself. Let's go with "seems extremely unlikely, but I'm not quite willing to say 'never'."
The problem is, the very common "sociopath traits" mentioned in paragraph 3 which autistic people would be incapable of are things which almost all (non-autisic)people are capable of, but would not do because they don't want to, because they are not sociopaths.
Where sociopaths really differ from normal people is in their lack of conscience and remorse. My question is: why can't there be an autistic person who lacks conscience and remorse etc? Surely you would call such a person a sociopath. Likewise, most sociopaths can use their legs to walk around and do evil things, but that does not mean a sociopath cannot be paraplegic.
Anon --
That is exactly the question I was asking in this post, and why I couldn't really figure out Adam Lanza. To do what he did, he would have to be without conscience. But the thing about sociopathy is, the sociopathic traits tend to cluster together, and the evil always seems to come with a certain amount of built in dishonesty and manipulativeness. From the descriptions of Lanza's behavior from when he was in high school, he was almost certainly autistic; no one took him for a sociopath.
Anyway, to your question why can't an Aspie be without conscience, the most honest answer I can give is, I don't know (which is why I ended the post with those words). Theoretically, I suppose there's no reason. But the only case I've ever seen it in is Lanza. (There could easily be others I'm unfamiliar with.)
One more thing: it is impossible to be a serial killer without being a sociopath (I feel comfortable using the absolute "impossible" here). Yet there have been mass murderers who haven't been; most of them have just been crazy in one way or another. Lanza was a mass murderer, not a serial killer. It's possible that he just somehow snapped, or to put it in more technical terms, had a psychotic episode, when he stormed the school. But again, that's just conjecture. So, I'm sorry but my final answer has to be, once again, I just don't know.
It does seem as though both autism and sociopathy have genetic causes: studies have shown a link between deleted oxytocin receptor genes in autistics, and with overreactive dopamine systems in sociopaths.
Anon --
Interesting, thank you. I hadn't heard either of those things before.
I've been doing more reading about them today, and I guess they make sense. Oxytocin is known as the "trust hormone" and sometimes the "love hormone". A study in mice revealed that oxytocin drives the 'reward' we feel after socialising. It's why actions such as hugging people feel good, and also why stroking a cat is relaxing - the human and cat alike both get increased levels of oxytocin. This considered, it's easy to see why someone who doesn't react to oxytocin in the normal way might fail to socialise and understand other people - socialising wouldn't bring them the same pleasure.
Dopamine acts as an excitatory hormone, which means it plays a major role in the sensations of pleasure, excitement and reward. This is probably why sociopaths are constantly bored, always looking for buzz and thrill. It explains very well why they have little inhibitions, why they would become pathological gamblers and make life-changing decisions at whim, never really pausing to consider the ramifications.
Anon --
Interesting, thank you. I wonder if that cause and effect could work both ways. With the autistics, is it possible that because those centers of the brain aren't used as much, they atrophy? (Is that possible? I don't know.)
Likewise, with sociopaths, I wonder if decreased dopamine levels could be partly a result as well as cause of sociopathy. There are just too many cases of children who grow up in orphanages, and children who are abused, growing up sociopathic, not to think that there is a strong environmental factor at play there.
I have wondered a lot about the potential for Aspergers and Narcissism to co-exist. My now ex husband has a gene pool full of undiagnosed autism (I am talking 55 year old uncle still sleeping in his childhood bed in parents house and able to recite every train timetable in Sydney back to 1913). Many other examples of relatives with text book traits (I know but I was young). I wonder if my husband is deliberately manipulative at times. A psychologist told me she believes he has NPD (based on my descriptions). His mother is a very typical female aspie. I wonder if her inability to respond appropriately to her babies cues could have contributed to some NPD traits in an already genetically aspie baby.
Ruby --
That's a good question, and one I wish I had the answer to (but I don't). There's certainly no question about the autism that runs in your husband's family.
The Aspies I've known have some of the characteristics of narcissism without some of the others. They become extremely angry when given criticism, a trait they share with narcissists. (If you want a good example of this, take a look at both the volume and tone of the responses I've gotten to the original post I wrote on Aspergers (dated 8/18/11).
Like narcissists, they are not particularly aware of others' feelings and needs, but that is more a function of cluelessness than callousness.
On the other hand, they tend not to have the out of control egos that true narcissists do. They don't strut around exuding conceit, and from what I've seen they don't think they're great at things they're not great at.
As far as the manipulativeness, I've seen it, but it doesn't really extend that far beyond what most non-narcissists might do, and their attempts at manipulation tend to be pretty transparent.
I find your theory about how an autistic mother can cause NPD perfectly logical, however. I'm embarrassed to say I'd never thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense: unresponsive or insensitive or uncaring or alcoholic mothers can often be the cause of NPD (and sometimes even sociopathy), and an autistic mother would fit those first two adjectives.
Thanks for that input. Sorry I couldn't give you a more definitive answer; this is the best I could do.
Thanks for the reply. The genetics and nurture components interest me. I have two sons who dont seem to show any traits of autism at this stage (they are 4 and 7) but now that I understand what autism is and how prevalent it is in my childrens family I think about how it might play out in future generations. I also wonder about the impacts of Aspie parents on both neurotypical and aspie children. I see elements of the ego side of NPD in my ex husband, and he is quite manipulative / lies about abilities/ achievements/ other incosequential things, but he is clumsy and transparent in the way he does it.
Ruby --
Thank YOU. I understand your concern for your sons.
From the way you describe him your ex sounds like a low-IQ sociopath as much as an Aspie. Is it possible that he somehow escaped unscathed by the autism but because of the insufficient nurturing by an Aspie mother turned into a sociopath? The reason i suggest this is because most of the Aspies I've known don't lie about their past achievements and abilities and other inconsequential things. (They may make mistakes about them, but they generally don't lie.) Also, overestimating one's abilities is an NPD trait, whereas outright lying about past accomplishments is more of a sociopathic one.
And Aspies are generally not manipulative, either. Your ex evidently tries to be, even if he doesn't do it skillfully (hence the low-IQ suggestion).
I'm sorry if this causes you alarm, but if it is a possibility it's better you be aware of it than not. I could be wrong, certainly don't know enough to say for sure, but am just trying to give you my most honest assessment from the picture you've drawn.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Here are some more points.
He is not low IQ. He is an engineer and has an almost endless knowledge on many things including quite narrow interests in astronomy and international politics.
Examples of exaggeration of achievments might be spending all night at a dinner party talking about his work, describing his contracts as being worth much more money than they actually are, or telling people he is the coach of a soccer team when he isnt, or saying he is a surfer when he isnt, that sort of thing. He is comfortable lying about almost anything, although can be brutally honest as well- will tell people if they are overweight, look old, what someone else said about them while they werent there etc.
Its all speculation ofcourse, and obviously I am not qualified to assess, but I do wonder if he is NPD and Aspie or a bit of both.
Ruby --
OK, if he's a good engineer he can't be low-IQ. I was just basing that on what you said about his attempts at manipulation being clumsy and transparent. But I've known others with NPD and most of them, while they spin, don't outright lie about their achievements. That sounds more like sociopathy to me, especially given his comfort with the lying.
Maybe he is psychotic? This grandiose sense of self sounds like schizophrenia to me. Does he believe in what he says? Have you also considered bipolar disorder? Psychosis is more common than one might think, it affects 3% of the population and it has many forms. Consider this possibility.
Thanks for your thoughts. Here is a news article from Sydney Australia. Will be interesting to hear what is found.
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/morgan-huxleys-accused-killer-jack-kelsall-does-not-appear-for-bail-application-20131015-2vjlk.html
Ruby --
Interesting, thanks. Both the victim and his brother "look" more like killers than Kelsall does.
Very interesting re the hormone oxytocin, I am wondering do Aspies want to love or be loved? I know it depends on where in the spectrum they lie, but my experience with some aspies is that they want to (somehow) but it doesnt matter to them as much as to us NTs.
Anon --
My impression is, they do want to be loved just as much. They're just generally not as skillful at eliciting that emotion.
"Most aspies seem almost incapable of lying"
I actually have Asperger's syndrome and know many others with it, But that quote at the top is pure nonsense.
So how have I been able to successfully lie to people in difficult situations all my life?
I've lied to teachers, I've lied to friends, I've lied to parents, I've lied to people I barely even know.
I don't lie all the time, But it's absolutely not impossible for a person on the spectrum to lie.
'I went to the moon yesterday'. Oh look I just made an extremely rudimentary lie.
Ignorant people like you make me sick, Go read a fucking book on Autism you clueless ranting fool.
Kenneth --
You may be a (bad) liar but you certainly proved another part of the post correct, the part about being pathetic and childlike.
Being a rather rational person I accept your right to free speech. But after reading the article and comments a lot of people seem to be armchair diagnosing people, with out proper training and skills and it comes across as a witch hunt. Peoples psychology will rarely fit in a neat little box and labels are rather useless. Having worked with people with mental illness in the health care field a great deal of what is said on this site about autism or aspergers (hfa) is incorrect. The parameters of mental illness and what we understand constantly shift as the DSM and ICD get updated with our new knowledge. Reading something on the internet is hardly proof (look at the conspiracy websites).I implore readers to research from many different sources about mental illness or get a hold of the diagnostic manuals if your interested then make an opinion yourself.But leave the diagnosing to professionals. A lot of people have signs from various mental illness, but that does not mean they have it. By some of the logic utilized here I could diagnose mankind as insane from what I see everyday but that would be a GENERALIZATION wouldn't it.
John, THANK YOU sir for having the honesty/balls to reveal what many would be too PC to talk about. My (ex)boss, who I'm 1000% convinced had Asperger's, was fired a few days ago. My entire department celebrated like it was New Year's Eve.
It was a living fucking nightmare working under an "Aspie" for month after month. His total, absolute inability to connect with real human beings. The locking himself in his office with the lights off all day. The extreme rage over the *slightest* thing. The mixing-up/mangling of words. The NEVER, EVER admitting that he was wrong. The accusing others of saying shit that they never said. The pointing the finger of blame at EVERYONE except himself. The strange gait and even goofier hair. The mismatched clothing. The creepy stares. The telling people he never says "Hi" to them because there's no need for it. The going about the day like some kind of fucked-up robot.
And on, and on, and on. And most of all, like you said: "the opposite of cool".
It drove some of the employees to therapy, like they had some kind of PTSD.
From what I hear, this was like the 30th job he's been fired from.
Hallelujah!!!
And may God have mercy on his next victims. The poor bastards.
Anon (Aspie Victim) --
Thank you for that. Yes, you're right, your ex-boss did have Asperger's. It's amazing how consistent those symptoms are. The one which always amazes me is the accusing you of things you haven't said. There were only two of you there, how can he lie to you when you both should know the truth. It's one thing to accuse someone of something they haven't said to a third party (as a sociopath would), at least that way they would have a chance of being believed. But an Aspie will like right to your face about something you know you haven't said.
What's also mazing is that a person like that can end up as boss. But it seems to happen quite a bit.
Anyway, thanks for that, it was a perfect description of an Aspie.
All we can tell ourselves is that they can't help it, since it seems to be organic.
My guess is that this person maybe has a college degree, and not in psych. More likely education stoped at HS.
Making an informative comment would be like trying to teach my cat algebra.
You are right, it is ridiculous not to be able.to blame Asperger's people (note: ASPIES NOT AUTISTIC) for the things they do which are incredibly cruel. Aspies are often cruel on a day-to-day basis due to their refusal to take blame or accept criticism about anything even when it is so extremely obvious how wrong they are. Autistic people, however, DO listen to the criticism and attempt to improve themselves. This is why it is accurate to say that autistic people do it not-on-purpose, while As pies are often just being a jerk. (They are also more capable of understanding basic human interaction, making their cruel moments even more cruel, while the cruel moments of an autistic person might be done because they literally don't understand. Such as refusing to answer you, which an Aspie will not do on.purpose unless he is SPECIFICALLY trying to be mean, because unlike autistic people they DO tend to understand that not answering someone is bad.).
However, As pies are NOT sociopaths, and a real Aspie is not "hiding his disability" in the manner you say, nor is he "being enabled to interact with society," which is something he can already do, without help or "pretending". There is nothing "bad" or "manipulative about an Aspie going about his everyday life and having friends. Aspies do NOT have friends just to manipulate them. Aspies are NOT sociopaths, and.that section of your comment is disgusting. The reason Aspies are cruel to their spouses (and to their families when they are very young) is because they refuse to listen to anything bad about themselves and are always right 100% of the time even when presented with direct evidence that that's impossible in this case. However, there is one female Aspie I know who I respected because she asked why people reacted that way and voluntarily listened to the feedback and did want to do it better. I wonder of females are more likely to do that, and that being why the majority of spouses having difficulty were female. It is NOT okay for ANYONE to be abusive and that obviously includes people with Asperger's Syndrome. However, it is NOT okay to suggest they should be locked up or some such merely because they are mean to their girlfriends who love them.and want them around. They are not generally mean at the grocery store, and if they were, so what? Lock up all the rich Republicans and other people who are day-to-day assholes before you lock up Aspies who DO have honest and true Love for the people, as well as have morals and principles which they actually adhere to. One thing that Aspies have that 95% or more of the population doesn't have is social intelligence. As pies are way the fuck more socially intelligent then some birch like Kim Kardashian (or anyone who's a fan of her), who thinks that it is somehow okay to force,request, or make fun of somebody for sitting in a non-painful position such as on the floor, for wearing an outfit you don't like, or for not brushing their hair when they are male and the hair is less then 2" long. More relevantly, they are fucking intelligent enough not to do retarded things like say "Hi, how was your day?," when they are checking out at the grocery store.
Aspies can be extremely.manipulative. But they are.not manipulating anybody on purpose, and they are honest. My Aspie boyfriend would repeatedly interrupt me, yell at me, refuse to make up for anything he did wrong, etc. Thus, I have to do LITERALLY EVERYTHING HE WANTS AT ALL TIMES or else he will not only break up with me but actually block me on everything. Even when I am just trying to tell him one thing for an hour, yet when he gets to his door he "has to go inside immediately and no I am not allowed to tell him this first" even though he has interrupted me more then 20 times during the walk when I have tried to tell him. There is 0% chance that he is a sociopath. He is interrupting by accident and is demanding to go inside immediately because he ridiculoisly thinks that he will get yelled at by his parents if he waits 2 more minutes and/or thinks that I will keep him outside for another hour due to the fact that it has been 35 minutes so far since the first time I tried to say the important thing, which is because he interrupted me every single time. So, he thinks that he is right. But he ACTUALLY thinks that, and is not a sociopath. AT TIMES it is in fact JUST as manipulative as a moderate-level sociopath. But is not the goal.or the intent of the interaction, and in fact if accused of it, he would vehemently and agerily deny it - while telling the truth about what he thinks and how he feels, which is feeling and thinking that he is not.manipulative at all.
Of COURSE she is capabale of intentional evil acts! She breathed, therefore she is capable of it! Duh!
However, being AUTISTIC (assuming that you have used the correct word to describe your sister, who does NOT have Asperger's Syndrome if she has autism instead) does not CAUSE you to be evil, so if that is her only problem then many of the cruel things she does will NOT be on purpose. And some of them can be.
Yeah except that wouldn't work due to the fact that it isn't true and most sociopaths don't kill and some do not wish to harm people at all.
If he is autistic then he cannot hide it because he cannot use language correctly.
Not sure what that has to do with an Asperger's person trying to hide it. Yes they can easily "hide" it if they don't get mad, though more likely they are just acting normally and being themselves (except for lying about things like whether they do _____) and the therapist would notice nothing because a high-functioning human with Asperger's acts exactly like everyone else during casual interactions, mostly, unless they are of the extremely abusive/obsessive subset.
Some schizophrenic people are normal on a day-to-day basis. They are aware that their thoughts will get them.locked up and do not tell them.to people they don't trust, and they don't hallucinate on a day-to-day basis.
Most schizophrenics on jail also seem aware that they are hallunicnating, even when talking to the hallucinations, meaning that even if this type of day-to-day-normal schizophrenic person did hallucinate while out in public, he would ignore it at times when other people can see him.
Some schizophrenics do not hallucinate at all.
Not all sociopaths are successful in their.manipulations, because they haven't learned the skills to be so. And not all sociopaths purposefully manipulate to any extremely harmful degree (to get money from a friend, sure, but not to have a fake girlfriend, for example). Therefore, it would be reasonable to conclude the possibility that the reason that the severely manipulative sociopaths are successful is because hey have watched, studied, and trained to do so since childhood. If the sociopath who was not cruel to pets and has no interest in purposefully hurting people is there, then he may not know how to.manipulate so skillfully because he has not had interest in studying this subject.
On am.entirely separate note, many spouses of sociopaths gain suspicion very early on. If all or most sociopaths were successful, you would rarely hear of any suspicion or extreme hurt in the spouse until after the devaluation stage starts.
It would be ridiculous to say that autistic people cannot have Borderline Personality Disorder.
Borderline and Sociopath are almost exactly the same from the outside.
Point disproved.
My autistic boyfriend is manipulative, because he has BPD. I am now almost certain he is not a sociopath. Enough that I have stopped researching it and am only on this page because of visiting the pages that were previously closed accidentally, months ago. He does things that make.sociopathy probably impossible. Such as having trouble understanding things and minor details that a sociopath is unlikely to think to do. He is not quite doing the BPD-related manipulation on purpose, except for a few very specific things such as hiding money - but I have not yet proven whether he is doing that or not, and it is entirely possible that he may not be - but although he is not exactly doing it on.purpose or with malicious intent,he is aware of the fact that it is manipulation. Sometimes only after I point it out, but sometimes before.
I only know basic and common information about Hitler, but it would be impossible for him to be autistic. An autistic human would not understand the psychology required to do things like the hand sign in order to successfully i recreate the propaganda.
However,the traits which you describe, "talking at someone instead of to them," are traits of Asperger's, not autism.
My ex-boyfriend is a sociopath 100%, with.literally 0% chance that he's not a sociopath. He is very invested in his artwork.
No, if they lack both and also don't care about how anyone else is feeling then they are likely a sociopath (not autistic).
However if they have Aspwrger's Syndrome then there is a good chance they lack both.
I know someone who I say has severe abusive Asperger's Syndrome and have never suspected of being a sociopath (he has never attempted to manipulate, tells you flat out that he hates you, but also he is, as many people with Asperger's are especially the severely abusive ones, not remotely capable of logic which is required for being a sociopath). He definitely has no empathy of any kind as defined in your scientific way. He severely hates many people.including me, I am homeless, I sleep on his floor, his reason for hating me is because I support Ron Paul who he says is horrible and disgusting merely because he ran as Republican, regardless of the fact that he is actually a.Libertarian and regardless of the fact that while all Democrats support the state tyranny/CBS-style narrative, many Republicans (starting because of Ron Paul) do not, and therefore support poor people better due to you know not locking them all in jail for no reason whatsoeever and arbritraily and cruelly taking away Rights. So he has no remote.empathy of any kind, either one of the two scientific definitions you give here, yet he does take a severe interest in caring about poor people and is angry because "Republicans" (in his false-logic viewpoint) don't do this, this is not a "manipulation" of any kind as it has been the same his entire life and it loses him friends not gain them.as he constantly yells in their faces about politics when all they have said is that they wish they could have avoided that pothole, which somehow becomes related to food stamps or some such while he is screaming at them, yet at the same time when an actual homeless person tells him how actual.policies have actually affected them, he then yells in their face as well and hates them for "supporting rich assholes who hate the poor". So not a sociopath.
This definition in your comment has no.merits at all!
Psychiatrists say that the most important or.most required thing in order for a child to be a sociopath is uncaring parents. Yet psychiatry is also fraudulent. However, there is no way to study it anyway because even sociopaths who are repeatedly caught in real life can fool a psychiatrist, ESPECIALLY the kind that is sadistic/manipulative or purposefully cruel. Although a few may be more like Hannibal and be purposefully cruel to their psychiatrist as well. However there is no way to determine which of your clients are sociopaths who have not revealed themselves, and therefore ko accurate assessment for a study is possible.
...No, that theory was not "tossed". More propogandic bullshit, try looking at actual studies instead of some celebrity's book. It is rather obvious that mercury causes brain damage (although this is also a government failure in some part, as it can only cause damage when there is not also selenium in the same food or ingested at the same time), and autism is basically brain damage. Not to mention the innumerous other unnessecary additives that also cause damage which are not mercury.
Try Autism One.
I think it depends on the individual. I truly believe that I've met a sociopath. He was supposedly diagnosed with Aspergers earlier in his life. Unfortunately, he is the only person on the spectrum that I've met. He was a very sick and deranged individual. He lied about everything. Everything! He (Parker), was very good at hiding behind his mask like a true sociopath. It was a horrible experience for me, yet I don't believe that everyone on the Autisim spectrum are the same. He was just a sick, heartless, person, who lack morals. RIc
Hitler was according to the oss report (u can read it online) a neurotic psychopath unlike a traditional one. He was not amoral rather his sense of morality was inverted with bad being good and good things bad. Unlike a traditional brute like Stalin, he was someone who tried to be a brute and did excessive evil to satisfy that desire like a whiny teenager who thought being a sociopathic demon was cool and a virtue. He could have had aspergers but growing up his underlying neuroticism damaged his mind more and more making him more sociopathic as time went on intermingling with his aspergers. That is my theory.
The OSs report is spot on except for some unproven Freudian details and its 1940s view of the world.
Hey john whats up hows it going I imagine its getting tiresome for you that some people mostly aspies post giant boring paragraphs as if this is a college essay. I have asperger syndrome but take it easy I am not here to bombard you with emotional ramblings of how "mean" you are. lemme first declare that from a logical perspective, nothing you said were untrue and quite frankly I couldn't give a rats ass if it was in a harsh tone as long as its solidly factual which is that assburgurs is not a fucking gift its a curse I was born with and imma fight it and drag it on like a big anchor. All the achievements I made in life were despite of it not because of this wretched disability fuck the aspies who are proud of this lmaoooo I am very interested about your many posts regarding narcissists and sociopaths and since you know about the matter extensively from personal experience and otherwise presumably, I would like to discuss something with you which may surprise you. You mentioned repeatedly that by definition aspies cant be sociopaths or narcissists you're right about the former however I disagree with the former I am diagnosed as a narcissist and I am proud of it, aspies do have the capability of narcissism aslong as they give enough damn about their dignity self pride and ego. From a young age I was always interested in war and killing because they were fun =) I always enjoyed torturing animals, I had some success with bullying others, I always without exception rooted for the villain in any movie/story, I have an extremely high sex drive, I rather enjoy sports,I always enjoyed manipulating others, I don't mind breaking the rules if it serves my interest and finally I question and go against authority which enables me to tell right from wrong and detect sinister intentions of my potential enemies. You see before you start getting repulsed by me let me tell you that my narcissism helped me a lot it was my sheer antagonism from the age of 5 which prevented me to not be victimized a lot. Since the biggest problem with aspies is that they lack egos they naively want to be moral/social justice warriors and superficially adhere to the concept of being nice and good. In reality all they are is a magnet which falls prey to anyones' objective thinking they are a good source of attraction towards evil people who can easily trick them. since they lack their own objectivity they cant decipher good form evil thus get them and their friends in trouble Evil and good are fluid and relative concepts you have to make sure youre not the receiving end of it sometimes you need to be evil to fight evil. Aspies need to be more dirty to balance things out in a nutshell. To conclude my post, I am 22 years old I did have some success with the ladies, I do have peer friends, graduated with excellent grades from HS and was secondary captain for the basketball team (I am 6'3 btw) and next month I am being deployed to Guam (USMC)!Its safe to say that statistically I am way above average for an AS sufferer when it comes to quality of life because I'd rather be a bad wolf than a dumb victimized sheep.of course I do have my weaknesses but I didn't see the point of listing it. (If you want to respond to my post address me as Nick
Nick --
"From a young age I was always interested in war and killing because they were fun =) I always enjoyed torturing animals, I had some success with bullying others, I always without exception rooted for the villain in any movie/story, I have an extremely high sex drive, I rather enjoy sports,I always enjoyed manipulating others, I don't mind breaking the rules if it serves my interest and finally I question and go against authority which enables me to tell right from wrong and detect sinister intentions of my potential enemies."
You actually make yourself sound more like a sociopath than a run of the mill narcissist, especially the bit about torturing animals. And I've never known any Aspies who were bullies, though I suppose I've never known any who were tough, 6'3" Marines, either. And being big and tough would have insulated you from any bullying yourself.
If your point is that you're not the typical Aspie, I agree. I even wonder if you are one.
before I respond let me declare a technical disclaimer: My previous comment (and this one) was intended to be a respond to your other post "just not said aspergers" since due to a technical reason I couldn't comment there so I did it here.
I can easily see why you would have the opinion that aspies cant be bullies,narcissists or even join the military since they lack an innate foresight over other peoples point of view also I regrettably participated in an exclusive live aspie club where we would exchange stories and all of the aspies I met were cringe worthy to the teeth they all were very naive and adhered to liberal hippie pacifism they seemed to be oblivious to the fact that the world is filled with predators, whenever I tried to lay down some cold logic and rationale they accused me of being an asshole#bigot#jerk#evil and other meaningless jargon like they do to you, so yes I am certain that all the aspies you met were annoyingly clueless and too childlike to be tough in any sense of the word, however I do have aspergers because I unfortunately do share some critical traits with them: I have repeated motor tics where I flap my hands or body parts for no reason, I have trouble reading other peoples emotions, I tend to be extremely obsessive over a certain topic (although I get bored and move on to another)I do tend to take things literally and people complain that I never admit that I am wrong or realize my bad actions. Now lemme list down my differences with other aspies: I always strive to take risks at new things, I understand humor, I don't have bad sensory overload, I am ok with executive function, I have no motor skill problems at all and finally I don't have high emotional empathy. I am a hedonistic adrenaline junkie who always wants have fun (my psychologist suggested that I have an overproduction of dopamine) and I think its because of that that I developed a no holds barred antagonistic personality to explore the world without the fear of pain and failure with trial and error which forced me to me to learn and understand peoples emotions,motivations,desires and thoughts better than the average aspies from such a young age. I am 6'3 and quite muscled because I take great care of my body with constant exercise/sports and a holistic sugar free diet(I dont like tv and video games that much)
Nick --
Well, it does sound as if you have a pretty good handle on yourself -- the Aspie traits you list ARE Aspie traits. And you call yourself narcissistic, which sounds as if it's true, but some of the traits you list go beyond narcissism, to sociopathy. Being a "hedonistic adrenaline junkie" often means sociopathy, becoming easel bored is a yellow flag for sociopathy, and having a "no holds barred antagonistic personality" also goes beyond normal narcissism. Some of the interests you have (lifting, USMC, sports, thrills) just come from being a high testosterone guy. But it does seem to go beyond that.
I agree with you about Aspie arguing techniques. Whenever I've tried to introduce any sort of hard realism about race, or politics, or anything else, I'm inevitably accused of those same things, being an asshole or a racist or evil. Of course, that's a liberal thing as well as an Aspie thing. But you've just made another good point, which is that a lot of Aspies are drawn to the Left, because it's the side of reality denial; that's been my personal experience too.
Anyway, I'm glad the US has guys like you fighting on our side. The best soldiers, or Marines, often have traits like the ones you've described in yourself.
wow. I was almost certain that you despite being logical and rational, would demonize me for the description I gave you considering that you go very though on sociopaths to say the least but I am surprised by your rather friendly and complimentary response=)))
the thing I admire the most about you is that you put great value in objective reality regardless if it hurts peoples feelings or sensibilities of peoples 2+2=4 even if 5 is bitching about it! youre a great blog writer ever considered or did write any books?
Its refreshing to hear that you don't hold leftists views, liberals have destroyed this country because accepting reality is far worse to them than having their pathetic sensibilities crushed I am an atheist however my political and social beliefs are quite conservative I am really ashamed to be associated with these aspies because they are such whiny sissies and dare I say kinda effeminate non of the aspie guys i met had interest which was gender appropriate they all told me how they preferred the company of women more despite the fact that non of them can get laid and to add insult to injury all of them seemed malnourished and poorly dressed they essentially didn't care about their self image. Why would I ever associate myself to people with such low self respect?
like I said the reason for my red pill personality/characteristic ever since childhood is prolly because my brain overproduces dopamine which also plays a crucial role in socializing something I share strongly with sociopaths, back in boot camp they performed several MRI and FMRI scans of our brains and I seemed to have an unusually dense and large substantia nigra, the part of the brain which produces dopamine, I am way better adapted to the NT world because my brain probably rewired from childhood since I was like this from the beginning but for other aspies its too late for them to change.
You also strike me as a sport junkie yourself have you also served in the military?thx for the compliments btw I will continue to fight for our country with courage and ferocity!
Nick --
Thank you. This is as much a political as psychological blog, and the group I criticize most is liberals.
I had one book published in 1995, The Machiavellian's Guide to Womanizing, under the pseudonym Nick Casanova, but I was never alb to get another book published. (I wrote it in 1983, got it published 12 years later, and so far that's my least frustrating experience with publishing.) I tried hard for 11 years thereafter to get other books published, but was unable to. The fact that the publishing establishment is liberal had something to do with that, but anyway, these days I satisfy myself with the blog.
Maybe your excess dopamine is the answer to your personality, but I'm sure it also has to do with extra testosterone. Being an Aspie who's 6'3" with muscles is probably a little like being an Aspie who's a beautiful woman (I've known a couple of those), people make all sorts of allowances for you they wouldn't otherwise.
No, never served in the military. My son, however, served with the Army, was in the infantry, and spent a year at a remote COP in Kandahar. He's still in the NG, unsure of what's next for him.
hey man I hope I am not boring you with all my paragraphs hehehe because i enjoy the exchange me and you are having
such a damn shame that you are censored this country has become so politically correct that people would simply ignore logic and facts just to not be labelled as a bigot/sexist/homophobe/racist/xenophobe.. blablablabla I am def. gonna read your book and going to tell my buddies about your blog because you write some darn interesting things you would make a great journalist because you have an uncanny ability to explore the world, observe human behavior and reflect it eloquently via writing. I am a blunt guy i am not kissing your ass my compliments and admiration for you are genuine to the teeth!
My height is not because of genetics my dad is only 5'9 (mom 5'2)I am well built because I always was obsessed consistently with my body image and health throughout adolescence I had a diet which was devoid of junk food and sugar products but was rich in protein,fatty acids and minerals thus my brain is nourished thus i dont have sensory and motor deficits like the other aspies, you listed many problems aspies have but imho its rooted well in their malnutrition aspies are picky eaters and have a terrible lifestyle on top of that they hate change, risk and change is what made man be the apex predator and allowed him to have such an advanced knowledge about this world imo.
Nick --
Thank you very much. One thing I meant to mention to you earlier is that even though I said your self-description made you sound like a sociopath, one thing that is actually quite un-sociopathic is that you admitted to all of it. (Tormenting animals, bullying, etc.) A sociopath would be far more likely to do those things and then lie about it, and pretend that he had never done them.
Yes, no question, political correctness is strangling us.
Interesting point about Aspies, I'd never thought about their nutrition, but the one Aspie I know best doesn't eat well, she is basically against protein on principle, thinks a well balanced meal is three different kinds of leafy salad combined with three different forms of carbos (whole grain, of course), and maybe a tiny bit of cheese. Her inability to think straight extends to her diet.
I am no sociopath I am certain of that but this is the internet I can say w.e I want and noone will know in rl I dont tell this to anyone.You should research about dopamine it dominantly governs cognition it allows me to be social by instinct rather than having a robotic mental list to follow every single social norm. yes I might share some characteristics with them such recreationally take risks for the sake of adrenaline but I am not willfully evil for the sake of it I did torture animals and it did feel great but that was driven by curiosity than anything else however I can be described as a narcissist: I obsess over my self image and how people perceive me,I give almost no damn about peoples emotions or suffering even if i am aware of it, I dont mind manipulating others to benefit me, I am def. not humble either when it comes to success.
Aspies like me do exist, aspies who got tired of the majority who are in an eternal state of self cuckolding. aspies like me unfortunately make up only 1-3% of the gen pop. I guarantee we get along well the most with the nt world because we share common priorities and goals.
Nick --
Okay, you've convinced me. Sociopaths generally don't admit to what they do, they're not as honest as you, and they also don't engage me or appreciate honesty. (Instead they try to act like trolls, and you've done the opposite of that.) And, from what I've seen, Aspergers and sociopathy almost never coexist in the same person.
Just read the Wiki entry on Dopamine (which gives me a better sense of its basic functions rather than what an excess of it will do).
Several of the traits you describe, btw, are actually just high testosterone traits: an attraction to violence, to sports, and a strong ego.
I share your feelings about liberals in general.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA My rib is about to explode from the sheer nonsense I am witnessing. To the anon above aka 'nick' you really are pathetic you just proven that aspies are horrible actors and imitators your aspieness is more transparent than a pearl of diamond! Yo claim that youre a ripped 6'3 marine hahaha the joke of the year stop lying when your so horrible at it aspies can never be good at sports they are as clumsy as a toddler. I am pretty sure you never manipulated or bullied anyone since you are inherently incapable of doing since bullying require that you have an innate scope of peoples feelings and thoughts but i will believe that you yourself were the target of bullying and manipulation all aspies are the same tricking an aspie is easier than taking candy from a baby at least the baby can cry and alert an adult the aspie would have no clue what to do because they arent even aware that their being conned!!!!! I love your cheap psychological trick of wanting to be NT by bahsing your own fellow aspies and catering to the author who obviously did bash aspies you want to meet him half way so he thinks of you as his pal? lol "I ma not kissing your ass" hahaha you were practically sucking his dick for someone claiming to be a narcissist you sure are praising the person who bash people like you. Everything you claimed that you hate about other aspies is what you are making yourself out to be. You're inconsistent your logic is flawed and your utterly clueless. You have 0 pride when you put people of your own inherent kind under the bus what a sellout.
and to the author of this blog 'john craig' wow dude seriously? I thought you were smarter than this you actually believe even 1% of the drivel this aspies been telling you you say youve met aspies in rl yet you seem to be so blind to his super transparent bogus lies jesus christ he thinks hes found a cure hey everyone dopamine is the answer to an incurable organic developmental disorder. I hope that you are just being polite and if thats true it still is bad because the point of having ranting blogs is to be a million percent honest/blunt. I dont hate aspies and wish anything bad for them however I can detect sorry ass lies when I see them
Anon --
Are you an Aspie?
da fuck where did that come from? No I am not but I do know several people in my life coworkers,former friends and even an ex who did and ive done some research on the topic and I can pretty much detect when an aspie is lying in fact its very easy and you should know that 'nick' is utterly dishonest in his description of himself. Why would you suspect that I am an aspie? the way I see maybe i can be wrong is that he puts other aspies down just so he could gain recognition and praise form you trust me ive known more aspies than you and this is a common trick they use.
To make a long story short aspies innately dont have the ability to see things from other peoples point of view sure they can sympathetic towards you but only if you vividly make it clear to them that youre suffering and because of this an aspie cannot be a bully or manipulative as nick claims he is. I know that you dont believe the things he says ie.. 6'3,marine,sports, youre just being polite because unlike other aspies he didn't bitch about your description of them.
Anon --
The reason I asked if you're an Aspie is because you seem very defensive about them, and most of the people who come to this post find it through my original post on Aspergers, which evidently is on some Aspie website as an example of how horrible people (in this case, me) can be.
I've generally found that Aspies aren't manipulative or bullies, either, as I told Nick, but I can't help but wonder if his being 6'3" etc. doesn't insulate him from the effects of Aspergers. People react to what you are physically before they react to your personality, and very few people are going to bully a guy who's a lot stronger than they are. I've known a couple of incredibly beautiful women who have Aspies, and trust me, they get the benefit of the doubt from oat people too. guys in particular fall all over themselves being nice to them, for obvious reasons.
Plus Aspergers can coexist with other conditions. I said in the original post that Aspies can come across like narcissists, even if they're not. But if they do have some of the traits, certainly selfishness -- which Nick admits to -- can exist along with the Aspergers. The Virginia Tech shooter, Elliot Rodgers (the Santa Barbara shooter), Adam Lanza (the Newtown shooter), and Christopher Harper-Mercer (the Roseburg shooter) were all Aspies, and their behavior was the ultimate in selfishness.
I didn't get angry over your suspicion of me being an aspie I was just surprised because it was completely unfounded without any proof, although on your second post you did give 1 piece of evidence (me being defensive which is fair enough) but that was AFTER my second post I am just puzzled to why you would think I have aspergers just based on my initial post. I stumbled on this post about a month ago when I googled up Adam Lanza which also lead me to your other asperger posts I was eating popcorn when you had a comment war with the enraged aspies o' boi did I enjoy that LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!! YOU SHOULD THANK THEM THEY MADE YOU FAMOUS! btw aspies are fun to troll because they go to nuclear mode even with an atom of criticism!
Yes people who are physically strong are much less likely to be bullied or even manipulated but I highly doubt most of the things he says is true I doubt he is a marine or excels at sports as he claims or that hes 6'3 not saying height is related to AS but people, especially guys who reveal so much positive or grandiose details about themselves offtopically, are usually the opposite of that in rl (like a dude with mircopenis claiming to have 8 inches) overcompensate much?. I recognize a pattern in his post, its REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY since you wrote some harsh things about aspies, instead of reacting angerly he instead bashes other aspies just so you would have a more positive view on aspies and somehow minimize his own aspieness. you also mention that aspies cant bully (I agree) yet he claimed that he was somewhat successful with bullying and enjoyed manipulating people and torturing animals (narcissists/sociopaths dont admit that shit LMAO) in a way hes trying to prove you wrong covertly because he can't stand the fact that hes a powerless dweeb, Do you understand to what I am trying to get at? Listen I am a big time troll I love to troll people on the internet for the LULZ weather it be youtube facebook or blogs and I have become great at detecting lies and psychological tricks because I use often myself and this is just my assessment of this 'nick' character. Who knows maybe I am completely wrong maybe not.
Anon --
My guess is that "Nick," or George Lincoln, is telling the truth. He admitted to his weaknesses along with his strengths, and there was nothing he said that rang false to me, other than when I initially disagreed with his self-diagnosis.
You, on the other hand, just admitted to being a troll. As far as Nick/George goes, I think you're projecting.
But, I could be wrong too.
Common bro seriously??? IK I am a troll and usually I am doing the trolling but youre trolling me right now your not being fair to me dude, havent you read anything I said Youre not being fair because I took the effort of writing sooo much yet you responded with 3 lines.....how inconsiderate dont you see that hes using reverse psychology
Imma make it simple 1. you bash aspies 2.he cries like a little bitch 3. he seen the childish response of other aspies but you verbally annihilated their 'arguments' one by one 4.He employs a new tactic, He pretends to bash other aspies and claims to be manipulative so you subconsciously change your view about aspies. You know the saying if you cant beat them join them!
You may ask why would he go to such great lengths just to please a random stranger like you ?? well based on P. experience: Aspies are to criticism as a clitoris is to a dick; extremely fucking sensitive
Your main contentions in your original post back in 2011 was that that aspies are incapable of being manipulative caz they're too childish, innocent and harmless and he obviously didn't like that he makes up all this grandiose bs about being cruel so you would think that aspies are not that powerless after all REVERSE PSYCHOLOGY 101 mate. He wants to change your view without even engaging you hostily! Yes I am a troll but right now I am not trolling I am just exposing this aspie. Jeez i am on your side only trying to help....
btw adam lanza and elliot were complete losers them going on a killing spree(then ending their lives) just reflects their dweebieness it doesnt make em some feared monsters or narcissists. an aspie narcissist is an oxy moron let alone an aspie sociopath. In order to be a narc you need to have cognitive empathy first only then can you use that to abuse people aspies can try all they want they wouldn't even be able to bully a 4 year old
Anon --
This argument is taking up too much of both of our time. As far as my responses, honestly, I can't respond at length to every comment I get, I'd never have time to write more posts.
I don't see where Nick/George "cried like a little bitch." I agree that Aspies generally can't take criticism, but I think he took my criticism well, and there ARE exceptions, just look at the last 50 or 60 comments on the original Aspergers post, there have been some very reasonable Aspies who've written in. And I don't think they're fakes.
Yes, Aspies are not good at manipulation, not because they're childish, but because they can't read people well. But a guy who's 6'3" and built is going to have an easier time of it, just because of the implicit threat of violence there. And I'm not saying he's violent by the way, just that with a big strong guy that threat is always there, and it changes the way people behave around him. Just think of any large group of guys you've been around, the biggest and strongest (and most masculine) tends to be the natural leader. Not true in corporations, but it does tend to be true in social groups. Again, I'd make the analogy with beautiful women: the physical can predominate.
No question, all those killers were little dweebs. (Though they were also monsters.) But my point there was that Aspergers overlaps in some ways with narcissism. Neither group cares who they hurt when they lash out. And neither group is able to take criticism well or admit when they're wrong. The big difference, and it's a huge difference, is that narcissists have huge egos, and Aspies tend to not be egotistical. But again, not a 100% rule, just a generality.
I think you're making the mistake of saying that Nick/George has to be like every other Aspie, when in fact they do differ in some ways. Anyway, enough of this argument.
fine fine fine lets agree to disagree and change topics
Lets focus on something more interesting! You damn dog you made me kinda horny (I am the worlds biggest perv) you mentioned beautiful aspie women its kinky because aspies are so powerless and their women are so easy to seduce.
dont lie to me John I know you have tried to hit on one of those beautiful aspie women to get a piece of asspie ass. how did it go did you manage to bang them? I had an aspie ex i knew she was an apsie beforehand thats why I asked her out so I could coerce her for sex but it turns out she was a hardcore catholic puritan.
btw to clear the confusion I was george lincoln and pretending to be nick LOLOLLOL you should check out my youtube account i troll people all the time. I cant wait to hear nicks response
the real Nick, Hey george Lincoln why dont you take your dildo out of your ass you fag youre so much deep into the closet that you hit narnia not even going to bother respond to your garbage because John took care of that for me.
John dont respond to him hes just an attention seeking whore I strongly suspect he is an aspie though, hes horrible at trolling
One more thing John what does this retard mean when he says he pretended to be me? I don't see any of his comments suggesting that, did he delete it? thats a damn shame because it would be awesome to see him fail. I searched him up I tracked his google plus account his email address is ahmad-amiri101@gmail.com
Nick --
I think I'll take all of his comments down in a day or so, along with my responses to them.
wait wait!! chill man ok I am sorry john I will stop with the horseplay I do admit that I trolled here and there but seriously my critique of your aspie friend was legitimate weather u believe me or not is up to you and ik you don't wish to discuss it further I respect that man and I promise I will leave your aspie friend alone and not bash aspies anymore
lemme explain myself a little bit dude I am not a bad person I just like to take a brutally comedic and humorous approach to life I am working on to becoming a comedian I personally did 3 stand ups in cafes which people loved! idk man I just find peoples frustration and irritation funny but it has its limits I don't find people getting physically abused or murdered amusing/funny unlike psychopaths. please dont block me
lets just shift the convo and honest to god I am not being trollish but just curious You mentioned beautiful aspie women and its hard for me to believe that a good looking(no homo),charming, verbally skilled dude who did his own share of manipulation here in there (I am guilty of that too)like you didn't try to hit on aspie women because lets be real they're very easy because as you said they have trouble reading people therefore they have trouble reading your intentions so its easier to score with them. I am just curious man how did it go when you try to ask one of them out at least for sex. did you manage to get to 4th base? and jeez before you block me imma stress again I am not trolling this time.
common John I told you I am sorry even if youre gonna block me and remove my comments atleast respond to my last post I TOLD U I WASNT TROLLING in the last post. You have managed to respond to dozens of angry aspies so patiently and yet youre gonna chastise me for a bit of trolling here n there??? even tho I admit it, don't take it personally I troll lots of blogs but I am only revealing to the ones whom I respect, I do respect you dude and wanna hear it again I AM SORRY
George Lincoln -- or Ahmad Amiri --
If people disagree with what I say, then I'm happy to put up their comments. As you can see with the original Aspergers post. In fact, it was great that they all responded, because it sort of proved my point. But with someone who just wants to make trouble and cause a splash, what's the point, really? And you expect me to talk about whether I ever made a pass at any of those Aspie women here? You don't even use your real name. I do.
You know my real name ahmad amiri i am muslim and I use the american alias for trolling there you have it need any more personal details? .What an utterly absurd statement you made my friend. Me making goofy statement for the lulz alongside arguing seriously against your aspie friend is not the same as making trouble I made serious solid arguments against your friend with some jokes but that really doesnt matter caz you dont want to debate this any further.
No I dont expect you to do anything just requesting that you share some interesting stories in order for us to make a truce to this drama, Ill share mines who gives a shit if people see what we write or what our personal details are most of them wont give a damn anyway. Not gonna beg you just giving a humble offer of friendship maybe we can discuss serious socio-political topics and even debate as adults I wont troll ill give you my word and hell! you can bring your friend to participate, it be interesting to hear what this presumably outlier, unusual and tough aspie has to say.
I shared you my small bit failure with an aspie girl which went down south.
George/Ahmad --
I'm not your friend, I can't possibly be "friends" with all the people who comment on this blog, and I don't discuss my sex life on the blog either. You're right, most people wouldn't care, but there are plenty of people who know me who read this. End of discussion.
Alright no problem like I said I won't beg you its your wish not to discuss.
By friend I only mean we get to converse about important topics and since I am a comedian and youreally a writer it would be an intertwine venue to exchange opinions. I as a Muslim am deeply concerned about your overtly bigoted pres. candidate, Mr. Donald Trump considering that you tent to lean towards the right.
Hey Craig you there? Brother I kept my word I stopped with the horseplay and I was being very courteous and respectful to you. You're the one who said ur tired of the aspie argument so I switched topics into something serious which isn't about your privacy. Who would you endorse for president or at least who would you not want to win?
AhmadGeorge --
I'm voting for Trump. Read the last few months of the blog, you'll see.
Yes Trump does sound very appealing considering Americas eroded political and economic prestige in the world and the declining of other countries confidence for america's world leadership, trump is an elixir he tells americans what they desperately want to hear since Obama hasnt brought much progress however trump is only good at one thing and that is showmanship he sees what the majority want and says whats convenient to them however he lacks any know how about foreign policy and economics he simply thinks like a child I mean for fucks sakes how one earth are you going to build 2000 km-90 feet wall and expect mexico to pay for it? I am telling you he only gives a damn about himself. I know you americans are tired of leftism PC and obamas mere incompetence (I am also a conservative too) however making trump the POTUS is like allowing a 5 year old to operate a crane the child will have fun but before you know it disaster ensues. Not a fan of hillary rotten clinton but shes the lesser of the 2 evils
Hey you retarded sandnigger shut the fuck up already your tripe is getting too old and Donald Trump is the answer to the muslim problem hope he gets elected and kicks out you muzzies for good
Even tho I have aspergers Ill bet everything that Ive had more success getting girls than you ever will in your sad excuse of a life the closest thing you came to sex is jacking off your tiny pencil dick to gay porn in your moms basement and wtf is up with you and this weird fetish with aspie women fucking john?? you have been it crystal clear that youre gay for John. If you did that to me I would crush your bones and pretty sure the author would do the same.
btw the author never "bashed" aspies he only revealed our irritating nature among other peculiarities which were accurate I am not "sucking his dick" dumb shit just acknowledging that his correct.
Nick: One more thing don't talk about Donald Trump when you don't know shit about him all your weak points against him come straight from the liberal marxist think tanks, ya you sure are a conservative....... if you actually searched up about trumps history saw his interviews from decade ago you would know that his political and economic views are timeless hes been consistently stressing that america is economically being ripped off. Hes a multi billion dollar businessman and he only operates on logic no damn emotions and sensibilities like the libtard elites.HILLARY FOR PRISON 2016
We are building that damn wall weather it be 10 feet or a 1000 feet it will be done and Mexico will pay for it unless they want aid to their 3rd world impoverished shithole of a nation stopped. Also no more terrorist muzzies entering America you animals ruined Europe and imma let maggots devour my skin before I let you sub human scum even touch my America. GTFO our country you dumb sand nigger
John has been very patient with you I would have blocked and deleted your irrelevant ass ages ago.
Nick --
Please, no more n-word or I'll have to disallow your comments. I don't normally allow it (I'm in enough trouble for being a race realist here). I just allowed it here because Ahmad/George attacked you and you deserve a chance to get back at him.
No problems bro, my bad I did get carried away but evidently this troll wont stfu. I got no problem with black people but the same cant be said with muzzies.
...Obviously this person does not have Aspergers. People with Asp mergers Syndrome do not EVER say they can "get more girls then you" or anything else which literally requires an IQ of about 3 in order to say.
Well As a Neurology student with extensive background of general biology I might have some answers.
Its very difficult to understand the cause and mechanism of AS unlike autism because it has strong genetic influences and is quite paradoxical. However I meticulously searched a lot on the internet from advance sources from the internet and personally observing the behaviors of some aspies I know personally that i can paint a broader picture of aspergers regarding mass shooters.
Its totally foolish to think that aspies don't have the capability and/or intent/will to commmit harm things. I am going to argue, based form what I know that people with aspergers actually have very low both cognitive and emotional emotional empathy its got less to do with morality and more to do with ability. Aspies have an above average connectivity or synapses between neurons which overwhelms the neurons with constant signals ,that's why they have extreme sensitivity and because of that they usually seem to be disassociative and avoidant to cruelty and malice not because they are truly good passionate people but because they simply get overwhelmed. On the surface they seem to have virtuous or just philosophies but that's inst because they actually feel other peoples plight but because their already hypertensive state of mind they cant afford to investing in other people's endeavors.the strange thing is unlike NTs and socipaths they use their frontal lobes rather than the limbic system to intellectually deduce what the other person feels rather than instinctively and quickly like we do. in that regards they seem colder than sociopaths but their neurological methods of socializing is inferior and inefficient.They behave superficially polite or compassionate they have a limited ability so its better for them to avoid confrontation. The thing is though the hyperconencitvity can go bothways they can experience above average intense simulations that explains their obsessive narrow behaviors and caz they are so hypertensive they experience even pleasure more intensely(in certain activities) and theres no reason to think that these activities cant involve downright cruel aggression and sadism popular to contrary belief aspies have the potential to be even more cruel than sociopaths lanza and Elliot Rodgers certainly experienced great pleasure in killing those people.
Anon --
That was fascinating, thank you. After I read your first paragraph I was all set to disagree with you, as I generally don't subscribe to credentialism. But you obviously know your stuff, and your description of the Aspie state of being rings true. The bit about getting overwhelmed is so true, I've heard Aspies cry out, "Too much chaos!" if two people are doing two different things in a room at the same time. And they are bothered by, for instance, television commercials in a way that NT's never are. And if anybody even jokingly pretends to be cruel, Aspies will lecture them about their "morality."
The one thing that doesn't ring quite as true to me is what you said at the end about how they enjoy aggression and sadism more than most. I just don't get that sense of them. There's no question that Aspies are overrepresented in the ranks of recent mass killers, as I wrote about here:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2016/06/if-obamas-actually-serious-about.html
But I never got the sense that those guys got more intense enjoyment from their destruction and cruelty than, say, sociopaths like Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy did.
"I never got the sense that those guys got more intense enjoyment from their destruction and cruelty than, say, sociopaths like Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy did"
I am beginning to sense that you are of the camp that aspies although socially blind can't be capable of cruelty and sadism after all you have ubiquitous anecdotes from cassandra women who date aspie men"but hes so nice and gentile inside,"the other day he walked an old grandma across the street" "he treats animals good", however this is actually misleading.
Aspies like I mentioned below don't use the necessary parts of the lymbic system in the mid brain region like we do for social communication instead they use the frontal lobes, where logical thinking and concrete reasoning works therefore they have a very technical,pedantic;robotic awareness of social norms aspies usually try hard to please people and try to follow every moral,social and ethical conventions and also lie less because they want to avoid conflict and confrontation because to them its the path of least resistance however neurologically speaking this is extremely selfish, they don't do these good deeds to help people but rather to make them appear socially presentable.
like schizoids they are scared to be judged,confronted,criticized and lectured at.
I dont need to pull out fancy scientific terms for you to understand that since aspie brains are overstimulated and over connected that they would enjoy inflicting harm more intensely than even your baddest psycho SK.
Well you bring up ted bundy,a psycho/sociopath SK who had very specific targets and very specific style of torture and execution, which suggest that his cruel motives wasn't based on recreation but rather to fulfill a socio-psychological need. perhaps he did that to feel empowered over his female victims, If aspies commit acts of sadism they purely do it for pleasure/fun and they indeed feel it more intensely than socios(socios usually have socially oriented goals). sometimes their hypersensitivity can draw them to over indulge in powerful stimuli which includes physical cruelty that explain their repetitive engagement in "activities their interested in" for that reason they are also more prone to addiction and gambling or it can even be a harmless obsession such as music or world war 2 even sociopaths wont care about every single damn detail about a topic and they dont abuse an activity to such extremes. Aspies have an internal mechanism from which they view and make sense of the world yet are blind to how others might view the world therefore the concept of ego is foreign to them they are more concerned about survival and simple gratifications than to have a high social status or be interested in domineering over others.
Nick is very similar to my aspie cousin he finds it very "fun" to purposefully burn stuff, bother his family cat and torture small animals such as rats to death not because he wants to feel powerful and in control(like sociopaths and narcissists) but simply caz its fun. Out in public my cousin is a scared little shrew but at home to little animals hes a vicious monster
Anon --
I actually am sort of in that camp, just because that's been my experience, though everything you say makes sense. I've also found the Aspies I've known best to be extremely selfish in their own way, always having to get their own way, never being able to admit they're wrong, etc. But I can buy that the reason that they avoid confrontation is because it's the path of least resistance neurologically speaking. And the bit about following conventions sounds exactly like what they do, also partly because they have no sense of the give and take of banter, and prefer to have a set of rigid guidelines to follow since it makes life easier for them.
The sadism I've witnessed in Aspies usually takes the form of having their faces light up in delight when a third party says something to put down someone who has insulted them or called them out on their hypocritical behavior. And to say "light up in delight" is actually an understatement.
lol am I missing something here? can't help but sense that you have a deep seated grudge against the aspies my obvious guess is that you befriended or acquainted a few of them and were repulsed?
Anon --
You haven't missed a thing.
random fact: my aspie cousin killed a rabbit and ate part of its flesh raw and1 week later hospitalized for extreme tapeworm infection he lost 15 pounds
Anon --
Sounds like that fact is not so random, given his syndrome.
I may do a new post at some point, quoting from your earlier comments. They were quite illuminating.
gee man thx alot really appreciated and don't forget to mention that they do have low emotional empathy(they have high self empathy) despite aspies claiming the contrary
Also wanna hear a twist of humor? Lots of posts from NT wives of aspies consistently is about the NT wife complaining that their aspie husband has no interest in sex and I say to them, be careful for what you wish for bitch, youre lucky your aspie husband isn't "interested" in sex caz if they were their 'interest' will turn into a demonic fiery obsession and before you know it your vagina will be destroyed LOL I swear to god even sociopaths would want to distance themselves from aspies it shocks even them!
Anon --
I heard recently from the NT ex-wife of an Aspie, she said basically the same. I've found that what she and most ex- or current wives of Aspies tend to dislike even more though is the emotional distance, the sense of living in a house with a stranger, or just a roommate.
hmmm is that also the case with wives of sociopaths?
Anon --
No, they have more urgent types of complaints as a rule, like they're worried that the sociopath might do physical harm to them, or their children. And that he spends their money on other women, or gambling. And that he's incredibly cruel. I can't recall one complaining about the lack of sex or emotional intimacy.
If you're going to write in again, I suggest you use a pen name of some sort so I know it's you, I get an awful lot of comments from "Anonymous."
This is turning out to be much of a stretch even for me so this will be my lost post. although you can write me your own last response caz I wanna hear your opinion
I don't hate or like aspies I just like to observe them from a purely scientific basis and unlike most people I really don't get bothered or infuriated by their behavior I actually find them quite intriguing they are sorta like a pet and my advise to you is that instead of just avoiding them simply play along with them ik its easier said than done but you can give it a try aspies are horrendously easy to manipulate my aspie cousin likes me because i pretend to share his weird fascinations all I have to do is convince him to practise a set of rules to follow(which would benefit me) and tell him that its just a social rule and he will obey without question but what I do hate with a passion is LIES I as a scientist have a neurotic obsession with scientific truths regardless of morality and I resent the media's spin and even the accounts of other aspies that aspies are super saints who always want to do the right thing etc... which is simply false.
If you dig deep into the core of their nature they would make sociopaths appear a 1000 times more human. I believe sociopaths don't deserve the bad rep they are getting and I also despise how aspies get a free get out of jail card for their destructive behavior which trust me is intentional and odds are they aren't a bit sorry they are just sorry for getting caught and being condemned. Aspies are like jews they create trouble but will cry mountains of tears when they are given justice for their crimes.
So farewell John craig I am looking forward to your new post about aspergers I am very glad that I managed to 'illuminate' you with my knowledge as a scientist.
Conrad --
I don't disagree with you about Aspies, they can't hep but be what they are. I don't try to manipulate them, my tendency is just to pacify them and avoid them. I just don't find their company enjoyable.
Agree with you about lies, that's all we're fed by the media these days, at least on social issues. And yes, Aspies are not saints, they're just people who are wired differently.
Disagree about sociopaths though. I write about them far more than I do about Aspies, and they're the scum of the earth.
I'll get around to the new Aspie post, but it may take a few days (have several post in the pipeline at the moment).
George/Ahmad Amiri --
Thank you for showing your true colors.
George/Ahmad Amiri --
The "true colors" I'm referring to, if you look at your previous comment, is that all you can do is call names and insult, using the usual left wing terms: "bigots….warmongers...xenophobic,sexist,homophobic,bigoted,racist and genocidal."
That's exactly what people on the Left do, call names rather than make cogent arguments. In your most recent comment, you actually made a cogent argument, referring to the prevalence of American military bases and the number of bombs dropped.
My personal preference would be for the US to withdraw entirely from the MIddle East, and let the Shiites and Sunnis fight it our among themselves. And also for us not to have any more Muslim immigrants, we don't need more people in the West demanding Sharia law. If the West is so terrible, why do so many Muslims immigrate here? Why not go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan?
I've wasted enough time on you, if you want to write in again, I probably won't bother to reply.
George/Ahmad Amiri --
First, I'm guessing from your last name that you're Pakistani -- don't know, it's just a guess. Well, I'm half-Asian too, as you'd know if you read this blog. And if you take a close look at the picture on the right side of this blog you'll see that Im somewhat brown too. So, no, the phrase about showing your "true colors" was a reference to the ugliness of your personality, not your skin color.
Second, for you to use the word "cracker" puts you at the same level as those who use the word "Muzzie" or the n-word. You're no better than anyone who would do that. Which means you really ought not to be accusing others of being "racist."
Third, you seem to hold all Americans responsible for everything the US has ever done. By that standard, aren't you, as a Canadian citizen -- I'm assuming your a citizen -- equally "guilty" for Canada's limited participation in the Iraq War and more extensive participation in the Afghanistan War?
Fourth, since your primary identification seems to be Muslim, don't you feel a little hypocritical calling others homophobic? Please point out the Muslim countries where gay marriage is on the ballot.
Fifth, you didn't really answer the question of why Muslims come to the West. Yes, their own countries are in upheaval. But there Are relatively stable Muslim countries. Why don't the displaced Muslims go to one of those?
And sixth, you're a young man. Don't you have better things to do than come to this blog and bother me? Why aren't you out chasing girls or doing something like that? You certainly showed a strong interest in my sex life, why not work on your own? Or work on your comedy career, or something.
Sociopaths are not the scum of the earth. Overt narcissists are. Sociopaths can be useful such as Sherlock or having good ideas on some political solutions. Some sociopaths do do charity and stuff because that's how they believe people should behave - the people they will hate the most are the ones who don't do it when doing so will not hurt that person, such as rich elites TS if if the sociopath is not hurting himself as a result of that rich elitest - , and a few aociopaths even purposely avoid attachment to people in order to avoid hurting those people. It is also possible for a sociopath to learn some bit of empathy, or (in other sociopaths') cases to at least begin to understand how wrong it is to do what the usual sociopath does and to stop doing so except for particular people who deserve it for legitimate reasons (such as the person whoade his net friend kill himself). All sociopaths do not HAVE to manipulate; for many, it is optional. And even if they do manipulate a girl, if they never decide to end the marriage and therefore the girl never finds out, then the girl will be happy anyway. This is completely unlike an overt narcissistic, who will NEVER have ANY possibility whatsoever to learn or change anything, who will NEVER care about ANYONE in ANY way (unlike a sociopath who usually cares for a few people in some way, and who also has the sense of "do something for me then I do something for you, and do something for me often then I protect you"), and who is also violently physically abusive while also being so completely incapable of logic that you can't even shut them up or get rid of them by telling then the subject doesn't matter to you etc. A sociopath can't even stand an overt narcissistic at all but might be fine with another sociopath, as well as getting along with most people in general on the conversational level. A sociopatth also doesn't (usually) have that extreme hatred "visibly" ex using from his every pore for every minute of his entire existence like most overt narcissists do, nor do they just literally ignore EVERYTHING another person says in conversation except to use it as another excuse to scream at or physically assault them. There is no way that anyone can legitimately say that sociopaths are worse then overt narcissists.
Hey man its me again, Its a shocker to me but turns out I am being deployed prematurely. I am leaving this Tuesday to head for Guam.
I just want to say first of all that My apologies for giving a false impression that I am a racist and for polluting your comment section by replying to that troll I should have just ignored him. I am not a racist I have friends from all shades of the rainbow including some muslims who don't shove islam down people's throats. My mistake was that I got emotional and took his bait. As a serviceman I am charged to have more patience and self control and to be more thick skinned.
Also I would like to say thank you for defending me against "ahmad" to be brutally honest I thought you might just agree with him but you wen tout of your way to lay down some common sense by explaining to him that some of the aspies in your other post were reasonable and that you realize now, not all aspies are unreasonable who can't accept genuine criticism.
and lastly I would like to commend Conrad for his brilliant analysis of us aspies he in a nutshell stated that aspies aren't the so called innocent goodies that everybody has to feel sorry for like the media portrays us we are human and we aren't good or bad he truly exposed our nature.
Farewell John Craig, a blessing to you and your family continue advocating against leftist propaganda and spreading the truth about society I managed to get a copy of your original book and I will continue to spread your name so others can learn from what you write. I know this is wayyy over due but happy 4th of july
Nick --
Thank you very much for your kind words. I just try to be honest on this blog.
Good luck in Guam; better there than the Mideast. And Happy Fourth to you.
The difference between a narcissist and aspie in their narcissistic behavior is one is from a personality difference, the other is not. It is common to say an aspie lacks the ability to see other people's points of view, as if seeing another persons point of view is a single process rather than a combination of many processes derived from available mental tools humans have. (Like language, there is no little organ evolved solely to make every single word we say for us, the parts of the brain for language originally evolved for other purposes, we then invented language long ago using what was available to us and our ability to make sounds with our throats and lips)
(this is just my theory) It is more accurate to say their potential for that ability is hamstrung or fettered by cognitive dysfunctions and other symptoms that are present such as literal mindedness, difficulty processing information, difficulty predicting, difficulty carrying one situation over to the next, poor flexibility, depersonalization, poor working memory, obsessiveness, difficulty paying attention, and constant heightened levels of anxiety adding to it. It is arguably a side effect of what autism is (whatever it is), it is not what causes autism, it is caused BY autism. A similar case can be made for the deficits, delusions, and paranoia in schizophrenia leading to a similar result. Fortunately sometimes they are too unmotivated and lazy to share their thoughts or ideas with other, so it is much less annoying than with an aspie. They both are egocentric, but not truly egotistical or narcissists.
An0nimous.
An0nimous --
Yes, crucial difference between egocentric and egotistical. None of the Aspies I've known well struck me as particularly egotistical, but all were extremely egocentric.
My theory is the main symptom of autism is a set of unique executive dysfunctions and weak central coherence, but those two may be connected directly or be two symptoms caused by the same root problem (which I am unsure of what it is).
The rest such as the depersonalization, meltdowns, social deficits, anxiety, and obsessive behaviors are from a domino effect, they are side effects.
An0nimous
John, thank you for bringing this to light. I have worked with and known several Aspies, and without exception , they were annoying, judgmental, condescending, cruel comments etc.. They REFUSE to admit they are wrong and are also VERY vengeful. You need to look into Aspies and revenge.
The other thing i forgot to mention is their lies and manipulation. The biggest con they will tell you is they are incapable of lying,that is total BS!!! They will maliciously slander you when they don't get their way. I loathe them.
Jennifer --
I find Aspies incredibly annoying, but to tell the truth, in my experience they haven't been condescending or cruel as a rule. They CAN be, but half the time they end up being that way just by accident.
I think I will share with you something I've thought..
Why are some autists more reasonable, insighful, self aware, and better behaved than others?
Because some people are naturally able to reason, use insight, or observe, think in a metacognitive way about thinks while other don't.
I know some regular people who are not particularly deep or self aware, and some who are.
Just like Autists.
But there is a difference! Autists who are not self aware are not the same as regular people who are not self aware.
Regular people can afford not to be because what is naturally palatable behaviour comes to them more easily since it is not impeded by the existence of a condition that causes impulses to behave or act in a way that is not good. I know some regular plain people without much depth, and they are nice people, the are friendly, easygoing since their nature to be so is no distorted by an outside factor, can't discuss much with them except the weather. Just average all around.
If you took some people, gave them Autism, they would wake up like asses. If you took others, they would quickly realize what is going on and try to work on it. An example is a social filter, autists can be rude because they lack one. They may pass an ugly person and blurt out "that person is ugly" (I admit, I dislike it when people criticize autists for being rude but imply its because they had the thought in the first place, not that they couldn't avoid blurting it out. Everyone has intrusive thoughts, ironically this fixation for being oh so moral and hypocrisy is similar to the kind of autists) but a regular person has a natural instinct to not blurt it out, they don't even have to think about it, they instinctively won't, what is reasonable looking behaviour just is embedded but with the instinct gone, what is left would be awareness/insight and not everyone has the same.
I feel some people take for granted they don't have any one of several possible organic conditions that affects the way they interact with others, and this is referring even to individual actions sometimes. Like a person who can afford to not watch what they eat because they aren't diabetic. This is why I get irritated when people try to celebrate my condition or say it's a good thing (like neurodiversity), I make an effort to control it and they say I should embrace it! Tell a diabetic their condition is a good thing and they should eat whatever they want, and it sounds similar!
So autists do span the full range of morality, and intelligence, and insightfulness, and decency, and self awareness. But they cannot afford to be on many parts of any of these ranges without consequences to other people and sometimes themselves, while a regular person has more freedom to fall in areas without bad results.
That doesn't mean we should excuse behaviour though if it can be changed or worked on, you gotta keep trying if you are a professional to get the best result. But....if you look at it without a moral component, maybe its easier to not feel so prejudiced against autists for the way they act if you realize the above. The problem is people DELIBERATELY let...no.... directly define themselves with it and spread this idea virus which pisses me off to no end.
I don't know, I think everything could be working out sorta better in some other scenario for all this.
-Ga
Ga --
Excellent analogy with diabetics.
I think the basic dichotomy you describe applies to all people, not just Aspies. Narcissists think they're perfect, and see no need to change. People who look at themselves more realistically are generally more flexible and willing to adapt as need be. It all seems to boil down to narcissism.
I've always thought that most Aspies, while not narcissistic, do have something striking in common with narcissists, and that's an inability to admit it when they're wrong about something. And that generally extends to an unwillingness to change.
I don't know if it applies to all people. It's been my belief that most people in the world who have no organic condition, personality defect, or any aquired behavioural problems (aquired narcissism from fame or pampering) don't have to be open to change, be flexible, or adapt since they are fine just the way they are. They can breeze by without thinking of how they act since they have nothing wrong, so some of them are naturally flexible or open to change, some are not, but neither has never needed to use the ability almost at all.
And I envy them for that.
If by "all people" though, you mean everyone not just the regular plain natured healthy minded kind of people I'm thinking about who make up most of the world (or do they? are most people really that well as I imagine?), well then maybe I can agree with your point.
I have some trouble with vocabulary, by "dichotomy" what kind did I make? I maybe made one but can you condense it back for me in a few plain words if you want to? A dichotomy is a two sided point thing? Yeah it is confusing for me.
Narcissism can be a broad way to describe people, in some sense it can mean only a small amount of people in the world, but taken to wider definition you may be talked about as many as 1/4th of the people in this world to some degree or another. I guess with sociopathy, it can be as little as 1% but if you include anyone with any noticeable degree of messed up anti-social behavior in their life for whatever reason, even learned, you could be talking about 1 in 10 people.
-Ga
Ga --
"Normal" people, at least those who don't have an identifiable syndrome, don't have to necessarily make wholesale changes to their personalities. But everybody has to adapt to something from time to time, and everybody makes mistakes occasionally, so should be able to own up to those. But a lot of people don't seem to be able to. (BTW, here's an old joke: Q: What's the definition of a normal family? A: One you don't know well.)
I think there are a lot fewer "plain natured healthy minded kind of people" than you imagine.
Dictionary definition of dichotomy from Google: "a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different." I was using it to refer to what you had mentioned, the division between people who think they should change and improve themselves, and those who don't.
Yes, people whom psychiatrists would identify as having narcissistic personality disorder are relatively few, but I generally use the term in the broader sense, referring to the 30% or so who have a hard time admitting fault. There's no way sociopaths are 10% of the population, btw; and that's a much more narrowly defined term. I generally use 3 to 4% as the right number there.
Maybe I overestimated just how well off an average person is inside, and if 30% of people are narcissists, then saying "most people" as in >90% of everyone are alright is incorrect.
I just looked at that comment by Jennifer, if she was in a relationship for a long time, then it's understandable why feels very strongly. If she only experienced them like you did, I would expect the feelings to be more like your. I don't get where all these weird ideas are coming from. And why they try to make it sound much more sinister than it is when you are really just dealing with a mentally disorder person who of course will make things hell. But trying to make us sound more competent? Why are we now said to be great at manipulation? Do autists try to manipulate? Maybe, but we (or I would) suck at it, if you know you are trying to be manipulated immediately, then the person sucks at it. A lot are lower functioning and have trouble even supporting themselves or doing basic tasks like I am. I guess I am making it about me, but why get lumped in with the higher end minority who can blend into society and cause damage?
Likewise I don't get the non-autistic support for neurodiversity. Of course a bunch of people will create a movement if they nothing is wrong, but it only survives because of acceptance by society, and most people in society are not autistic. The guy who who wrote the book "neurotribes" is not autistic, Baron-Cohen is not (maybe the former 2 are just in it for the money). Sometimes calling saying "narcissistic" seems too much like a compliment since it implies being they even care about themselves at all, when it's really more pathetic, closer to a cult that worships the condition. If an autistic child gets raped by a predator nobody blinks an eye, nobody speaks up on the injustice. They get angrier at your relatively mild posts. Which is why I corrected you that one time about why those autistic people were upset with your posts, not because they felt their own egos were injured as individuals, they were angry about autism getting a bad name, their precious idol.
About sociopathy, I disagree on how I estimate it. Anyone who is sorta anti-social, I'd raise it to 10%. I used to have boss who bullied all new workers, she had an in group, and you would have to learn to side with her to avoid her mind games (she was good at it, the other's didn't know they were being manipulated, I only found out after one guy, a really good people reader told me what she was doing, she even fooled her superiors), but she isn't free from inner turmoil. She has a tough life, she also had moments where you could see some shame she represses, and she wasn't always that way from what I heard, she used to be a decent person but got more like she as her personal life became worse (this was too late for it to be childhood abuse).
So I would place her in this broad category of mild anti-socials. And I think they could make up 10% of the population. If 3-4% of people are classic sociopaths, I would guess most of them are not completely organic, the kind abused as a kid would still have some shred of fear or anxiety (like Stalin, abused by an alcoholic father, classic sociopath, but he suffered from fear and anxiety, he hid under his desk after the invasion by Hitler for days curled up and was deathly afraid of being assassinated, doesn't sound like Hermann Goering who didn't feel scared even as he was about to be hanged), if we limit it to just a certain type, they could have had amazing childhoods but love hurting others for fun and torturing animals as a hobby whatever I would say only 1% which is where I disagree with you on the numbers. Or maybe we are just arguing over different definitions.
-Ga
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