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Tuesday, March 7, 2017

Borderline personality disorder

I'd never had a good handle on borderline personality disorder before, it had always sounded like a vague, fall-between-the-cracks description of difficult people who didn't quite fit the textbook definitions of other disorders. (That impression was fostered partly by its name.)

But I've been reading about it, and thinking about it, and now see it as a very distinct, recognizable syndrome. And, as always, having known a couple of people who clearly have the disorder has made it come much more alive for me.

If you're unfamiliar with the disorder, you might mistake borderlines for sociopaths, because of their ability to self-righteously justify themselves and their unbridled fury when they feel they've been crossed. Or, you might mistake them for narcissists, for the same reason.

But there are some major differences between sociopaths and borderlines. Borderlines only become combative when they think they're right. (Of course, their ability to convince themselves they're in the right is often astounding.) Sociopaths often have that same feeling of righteousness; but they will follow a self-serving course of action even when they know it's wrong.

The end result may be the same; but with borderlines, it's less a matter of willful evil, and more as if they have a near-psychosis that convinces them they are in the right. (This "psychosis," of course, never seems to convince them they are in the wrong, which, admittedly, works out quite conveniently for them.)

Another difference: borderlines aren't gleefully evil the way sociopaths are: they don't, for instance, lie purely for the pleasure of fooling others. Nor are they casually sadistic the way sociopaths are.

Borderlines don't have the same overwhelming ego of sociopaths, in fact may often have the opposite: poor self-images. And they tend to be forthright about their insecurities -- whether about their looks, their intelligence, or even their character.

Borderlines tend to see things in black and white. They are often completely incapable of seeing another's point of view. This is a trait they share with narcissists. (Try having a political discussion with a borderline sometime.)

Borderline personalities are extremely emotionally unstable. As the National Institute for Mental Health says:

Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental disorder marked by a pattern of ongoing instability in moods, behavior, self-image, and functioning. These experiences often result in impulsive actions and unstable relationships. A person with BPD may experience intense episodes of anger, depression, and anxiety that may last from only a few hours to days.

Here, too, borderline personality disorder resembles another syndrome, bipolar disorder, in its extreme mood swings. It's certainly easy to mistake one for the other. But I've known people with both, and there seems to be a certain self-serving aspect to the borderline personalities I've known that's missing in bipolars.

Also, with the bipolars, there seems to be almost a certain orderliness to their moods: they're either up or down, and when in either of those states, their behavior can be fairly easily predicted. With borderlines, they can go veering off into a different mood based on an innocuous comment, at a moment's notice.

And, while a bipolar may stay depressed for days or even weeks, they will generally not stay angry for days, and are generally not filled with grudges. Borderlines have a lot more free-floating rage; sometimes they seem like walking temper tantrums in search of a cause. (And their anger is all the scarier because it is so consuming, and uninhibited in its expression.)

Another thing most of the literature on borderlines emphasizes is that they have an intense fear of abandonment. This may not be apparent at first, but one of the ways it can manifest itself is by the borderline trying to drive a wedge between their partner and anyone else they perceive to threaten their relationship.

One of the subtexts in most descriptions of BPD is that there seems to be an undercurrent of hysteria running through a lot of the behavior described. Sure enough, females are diagnosed with the disorder three times as often as men.

People who are in a relationship with borderlines often end up with a modified version of Stockholm Syndrome, tiptoeing around and constantly trying to mollify them in order to avoid confrontation and the inevitable fury that follows.

With the bipolars I've known, even though they are at times hard to deal with, I've always been left with the sense that underneath it all, they're generally decent people. I haven't necessarily gotten that sense with the borderlines; this may be partly why the syndrome is classified as a "Cluster B personality disorder."

89 comments:

gambino dellacroce said...

It's with good reason BPD is often described as simply being an extension of the typical female.

Lucian Lafayette said...

John, I am really trying not to be flippant here but it sounds like these people could be characterized as self-righteous jackasses with a real chip on their shoulder as opposed to simply an evil S.O.B.

Only one has a slim chance of salvation.

Luke

John Craig said...

Gambino --
Ha, I can see why people say that, though once you've actually witnessed it in action, you realize it goes well beyond normal female behavior and is a syndrome.

I've also heard hybristophila described the same way: it's just being a female, but more so. (Hybristophilia is the love that some women have for prisoners; the badder they are, the more attractive the females find them. This is why serial killers will often seem to have groupies.)

John Craig said...

Luke --
That's not a bad description.

The commenter "Puzzled" once pointed out that most of the really hard-core SJW's she knows seem to have BPD. I can believe it.

And "evil S.O.B." is not a bad description of a sociopath, by the way.

Anonymous said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4OduedG3SY
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader has borderline personality disorder

John Craig said...

Anon --
They make a good case.

Their use of the phrase "anger management" made me realize that a lot of the people who take anger management treatment must actually be borderlines.

Anonymous said...

His childhood also seems to fit. Growing up in slavery and exposed to violence. Also Kylo Ren has it I bet, the genetic component is there too.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I just had to look up Kylo Ren; I'm not much of a Star Wars fan. I watched the first movie, back in 1977, and thought it was cool. Then I watched "The Empire Strikes Back," in 1980, and thought it stunk, and really haven't watched any since.

But it's interesting that you bring up causation. The literature on this is pretty hazy, it seems to indicate that BPD is caused by a mix of genetic and environmental factors, but that it's not known for certain what causes it. Evidently one fairly common thread is childhood abuse, in particular sexual abuse. Which got me to thinking, you just never know what people's childhoods were like; and you just never know who's going to turn out to be crazy, and who's not.

Anonymous said...


Another candid analysis on human anomaly. Is mental aberration really cut and dried as made out by the DSM? Is it chemical imbalance or just lack of love and care by parents, family and society? Does not a Borderline act like a Bipolar or a Bipolar become psychotic or behave like a sociopath in extenuating circumstances? And the surprise when friendly Father Joseph is the covert pervert pedophile .
Is lack of love and connection the factors that precipitates the fall of humanity into madness or just the devil acting up?

Sherie

John Craig said...

Sherie --
all good questions. And the bedeviling thing is, you can see someone misbehave, and throw a fit, and it's impossible to tell at first what the diagnosis is, as it could be a number of things. It's only upon getting to really know them that you can tell; and after witnessing that initial fit, why would you want to get to know them better, unless you were forced to?

I can see why, back in the old days, people would attribute certain behaviors to the Devil. And if you ever read descriptions of who the Devil was supposed to be, he does sound an awful lot like a sociopath. (Evil, manipulative, honeyed tongue, brings people to their doom, etc.)

High Arka said...

Blaming it on the devil, while somewhat insane, seems less insane than blaming it on a cornucopia of vaguely-related systems that depend upon people either (1) deciding to see a doctor and get diagnosed with a personality disorder, or (2) being required to see a doctor and get diagnosed with a personality disorder. Considering the size, power, and social impact of our current medical and pharmaceutical industries, isn't blaming it on the devil a far more efficient course for a society to take?

I've known a lot of people who said they'd been diagnosed as bipolar but never had the "manic" phase, e.g., the psychiatrist just used it to explain why they were sometimes really sad, and get them drugs. More importantly, even industry statistics have shown us that kids get diagnosed with (theoretically) complicated conditions simply because they are bored in class. That kind of thing makes me consider all other formal syndromes with suspicion. Even if we don't need to invoke the devil, can't we just consider people assholes on a case-by-case basis without trying to come up with a class of priests and mediators to try to guess what kind of assholes they are?

Anonymous said...

You don't watch the newest star wars films eh? Do you watch any films? Are you trying to be a crusty old man, ol' John?

John Craig said...

High Arka --
Personally, I always enjoy figuring out what syndrome some "asshole" has, it's always an "aha!" moment for me. And the benefit of figuring out the syndrome is that you know what other behaviors to expect from the person, whether there's any possibility the person can change (there isn't, for instance, with a sociopath), and how to deal with him or her.

Which is not to say that a lot of misdiagnoses don't occur.

I agree that bored kids get over diagnosed, and that "ADD" or "ADHD" is often just a healthy boy's natural state. I wrote about that here:

http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/search?q=ADD

I too knew someone who was diagnosed as "bipolar manic depressive," which made no sense to me.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I"m not TRYING to be a crusty old man. I just AM one.

Believe me, if I had any choice I'd be an adventurous young man who found the world an incredibly appealing place.

High Arka said...

Anonymous, all my older friends watched Star Wars; I was the only one to refuse. ;)

John Craig said...

High Arka --
I meant to say "unipolar manic depressive" above. "Bipolar manic depressive" would merely be redundant.

Justin said...

Arguing politics with a borderline is a great example. Perfectly reveals the nightmarish mess inside their brains.

What's also worth noting is that BPD and NPD can coexist in the same person. The two "false selfs" function as semi-separate personalities in such a case.

John Craig said...

Justin --
Given the overlap between BPD and NPD, wouldn't it be a little hard to tell where one began and the other left off?

Neither of the two BPD's I know are wildly egotistical, which would seem to show they don't have NPD. And the literature I read on BPD said that they have very fragile self-images, which would seem to be antithetical to NPD.

In terms of selfishness and not being able to see another's point of view, though, the two syndromes match perfectly.

Anonymous said...

You're right about BPD and bipolar being confused.

The main difference between BPDs and bipolar - and it is a huge one - is that the true bipolar can go into manic phases where they are genuinely convinced that they are something they aren't. I knew a bipolar who convinced himself he was the CEO of a major company. BPDs don't do that.

Lucian's non flippant description is good. "self-righteous jackasses with a real chip on their shoulder as opposed to simply an evil S.O.B."

Let's put it this way: a BPD whines about how the world mistreats them and wishes they could be a CEO without having to work for it, a bipolar happily dispenses with all that and fantasizes he really is the CEO.

That's an SJW by any other name, isn't it? They aren't cycling into major fantasy-land where they think they are president but they think that by throwing a tantrum they can change things. Guess what, I think most of them really don't want to change things. They just want to throw tantrums.

I agree that it's fruitless to draw bright lines between BPD and NPD. It's the same cluster, a sense of the most insufferable entitlement while having done nothing.

Doesn't this just reek of SJW??

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Puzzled--
As you saw, in my reply to Lucian (Luke) I mentioned that you had mentioned a while back that most of the SJW's you knew seemed to be Borderlines. I agree, I think a lot of them are.

Most of the bipolars I've known didn't actually go off into fantasy-land quite like that, it was more of matter of putting either an incredibly positive -- or negative --spin on whatever their situation was at the moment.

And yes, the Cluster B disorders are clustered together for a reason: the varying amounts of venom they all have.

Anonymous said...

The NPD and BPD having antithetical traits isn't a paradox. It's like the horseshoe theory of politics. The further you veer to one side you begin to resemble the other like ultra religious right believing being gay is bad because God says so while the far left like Tankies believe it is bad because it is a bourgeois decadence.

If you stray from balance you develop similar bad behaviors. A fragile sense of self leads to lack of self awareness and a tendency to act without awareness for cost. A strong sense of self leads to indifference to other people while being fully aware without care for cost.
Hence the opposite traits of BPD and NPD result in similar results.

This also has been used in new theories of how autism and schizophrenia are two extremes of the mentalization scale. Aspies undermentalize meaning they only see the trees and not the forest. They are incredibly literal. They don't understand the bigger picture and think anything that is not logical is wrong and begin to hurl accusations at you blindly not seeing thoughts or point of view behind your actions.

Schizophrenics overmentalize ignoring the details behind situations, only seeing the picture and not the conditions, they can't see that some things are literal, seeing meaning where there is not, they have to insert meaning into everything, and develop paranoia which leads them to hurl accusations at you because they insert intentions behind your actions.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps most of the bipolars you know don't go off into fantasyland, but if you read the literature, this is a trait.

Venom....yes. This is characteristic of every BPD I know. And not of other disorders. So that's another difference between them and bipolars. The bipolar friend I had was extremely un-venomous. He was just nuts.

I think BPD is very feminine, but abnormal feminine, not normal feminine. We are living in an age that celebrates abnormality, so BPD has come rushing out, like a variety of other oddities. The 2nd Obama Administration was notable in the amount of sheer venom it unleashed into American society. No wonder SJW's, esp. women, are disoriented. And how have they expressed their rage? By spitting venom.

My BPD neighbor is truly a venomous human being.

Venom. Good word.

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Anon --
Interesting. I'd never heard of the "horseshoe theory" of politics, though I had noticed its existence. The usual example I think of is the Mideast. The far left thinks should stay out because to get involved would mean we're exerting our might unfairly; the far right believes we should stay out because we shouldn't be doing Israel's bidding. But the net effect is the same.

I've never thought of Borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder as being opposite, however. They're both Cluster B personality syndromes, and from what I've seen, both act in similar ways for selfish reasons, both are filled with the same poisonous rage when crossed (or when they feel they've been insulted). I see Aspergers as being more the opposite of the Cluster B disorders.

As far as schizophrenia, that seems to be just a different situation entirely: they simply hallucinate. I guess "overmentalize" is a good description, but a lot of us overmentalize without quite reaching the stage that schizophrenics do, thinking that the clouds are sending them messages, etc.

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
Come to think of it, I know OF one woman (I barely knew her personally) who was bipolar who went "crazy" to the point where she thought she was way, way better than she was at stuff, and suddenly figured she should be in charge of everything, which fits with the CEO thing. (You could think of that as the extreme of narcissistic personality disorder.) But most of the bipolars I know just have mood shifts of the kid we all experience, just far more pronounced. But it's true that the mood we're in will color how we perceive a lot of our interactions.

Yes I've seen borderlines so filled with rage that they're practically spitting with fury, throwing things, etc. And when they get like that they seemingly have no self control. It's scary.

You're right about the Obama administration, though I don't distinguish quite like that between the first and second terms. Right from the start Obama and Holder made pretty clear what their agenda was, and pretty much every proposal they put forth, from the "tax refunds" of the Stimulus bill to people who'd never paid taxes, to "banning the box," to not paying any attention to the knockout game until a white did it to a black, to Obamacare's shifting of resources from Medicare to Medicaid, to their anti-police animus, to their declaration that black boys shouldn't be penalized disproportionately in schools, was nakedly racial. And a lot of people finally woke up to that. Enough people to elect Trump, thank goodness.

Anonymous said...

John Craig,

Schizophrenics aren't just people that hallucinate occasionally. There is a sizeable amount of other symptoms that still remain even when medicated. Flat effect, avolition, empathy deficits, impairment of theory of mind, cognitive dysfunctions, poor working memory, disorganized speech patterns, catatonic behaviour, difficulty concentrating, non-literal thinking. Paranoia and some delusions can still remain. All medication does is stop them from seeing or hearing things.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Okay, thank you; you're obviously better informed when it comes to schizophrenics than I am. (I've only known one, and him only barely.)

One interesting thing about that disease is that a lot of geniuses seem to have been touched by it. The two guys many consider to be the greatest chess players of all time, Paul Morphy and Bobby Fischer, may have had it. From what I've read of Morphy, he may have just had OCD, but Fischer seems to have had schizophrenic. And I've long suspected Brian Wilson of maybe having it as well; most accounts of his life will say that he went off the rails because of his drug taking during the 60's, but there were plenty of people who took drugs who didn't end up as he did. (And I think Wilson was one of the two greatest musical geniuses of the 20th century.) When some doors close, sometimes others open, I guess.

Anonymous said...

They tend to be very creative and innovative.
People with schizophrenia in their family history who are unaffected display very high levels of creativity and imagination for areas such as the arts, music, storytelling, and poetry. Similarly, people with autism in their family who are unaffected display great engineering, mathematics, and scientific skills.

I checked up about Brian Wilson on wikipedia, he is now diagnosed with schizoaffective and bipolar disorder. He was later also diagnosed as paranoid subtype of schizophrenia but this was retracted. He does has legitimate heavy brain damage on top of his conditions. He has also admitted to having poor memory, a sign of executive dysfunction. He also says he lies a lot when speaking to people to "test" them. He is almost impossible to interview never giving a long coherent answer. He also seems to ignore people for extended periods of time, and displays egocentricity. But it's coming from an area other than narcissism.

John Craig said...

Anon --
That's interesting about the families of schizophrenics and autistics. Makes sense; I guess the idea is to have a touch of the disorder without getting the full-blown version.

I guess the bipolar diagnosis makes sense for Wilson; all those years when he was unwilling to get out of bed, get up and about. But his incredibly high levels of creativity, that unbelievably beautiful music he created, spoke of something that wasn't normal with his brain, and a touch of schizophrenia -- schizoaffective disorder -- sounds just about right.

Anonymous said...

Hi John,

BPD appears to be caused by abuse by caregivers. Dr Marsha Linehan (she has BPD) describes the cause of BPD to be a combination of emotional sensitivity and an invalidating environment. I think it's from having a narcissistic parent or parents.

BPD's will argue and rage then fall towards self loathing guilt and remorse. I don't think "being right" is a BPD thing. They feel so much emotional pain they will cut themselves to the bone.

All the Narcissists I've met are never wrong, and never really apologize (because they are never wrong). Narcissists will often explode into a rage if you ever dare to even cross them or try to prove them wrong.

Andrew

John Craig said...

Andrew --
Interesting; some of the literature I read spoke of early abuse, in particular sexual abuse. (I have no idea whether this happened with the borderlines I know, and am not about to ask.)

I've seen them argue and rage, and when they do, they seem to have the ability to think they're in the right, even when they're plainly not. And I've heard of them later describing the situation lopsidedly to others to get them to agree with them in order to convince themselves they were in the right for their fury.

Agree about narcissists.

Anonymous said...

Hey John,

It may be that it's not having a touch of the condition, but the genes that are responsible for creativity or technical skill are volatile. How long have humans been around? 200,000 years give or take. I suspect sudden evolution in such an absurdly short amount of time led to evolving new genes that were very volatile and susceptible to go wrong. Some ethnically homogenous groups such as the Amish DO display lower rates of these disorders (it's easy to survey them as they are few in number), it's likely isolated human groups evolved protections that were only maintained without outside genetic influence.

Paradoxically, the genes of the people with these disorders are under heavy selective pressure to this day. Hans Asperger noted most of his patients were only childs, and families with histories of disorders were more likely to prefer having fewer children overall. Plus sometimes these disorders are too severe to prevent a person from even getting any. A severely autistic or psychotic person from birth won't be have a child, and even some on the higher end don't always have children (Elliot Rodger tried hard to get some but no matter how much he did, he didn't, and I know a girl with ASD who never wants to get pregnant). And there IS a gender gap. Men are more likely to develop neurological disorders, studies with two patients, one male, one female, of equal symptoms show the female has often multiple times as many mutations. Female rats exposed to mutations or toxins require even more exposure than males to develop the same disorders. So the gender gap for autism, schizophrenia, dyslexia, adhd, and even sociopathy may not just be a matter of poor diagnosis (but there is some to a degree).

And then there is the fact with these disorders, there are simplex cases. Where a family with no history suddenly has a child with one. Genetic testing and careful scrutiny shows none of the signs in relatives of said child. There is a story of a severely autistic person getting another pregnant when unsupervised in a mental home. And guess what? That child was neurotypical. Both parents severely autistic but a normal child! It could even be possible for all we know that child grew up and had children who were also normal.

So what the hell is going on? (And no, I don't think it's vaccines lol)

John Craig said...

Anon --
Good point, some of these disorders effectively "weed themselves out" of the gene pool by not being able to reproduce as easily. It's simply harder for an autistic person to seduce someone else, and this would have been as true back in the caveman days as it is now. (Though back then, rape was a more viable alternative for reproduction.)

Anonymous said...

So why do they still exist? They keep getting weeded out over and over, but then keep popping back up like, well... weeds. Hell, even if you sterilized EVERY single person with a certain neurological disorder or person who is carrying the genes for the disorder on the face of this planet, it will reappear all over again! Not new disorder from new genetic errors and mutations, but the same exact disorders. Do you have any idea or opinion why?

Anonymous said...

And I do think enviromental factors play a role. People with neurological disorders were more likely to be born to difficult pregnancies or families with a history of smoking and drug use. Having an underweight malnourish underage mother greatly increases the chance of schizophrenia.

I would say it is 75% genetic and 25% enviromental. Maybe the increase in autism, schizophrenia, alzheimer, parkinsons, adhd, and dyslexia may be due to better diagnosis, but we cannot rule out the possibility that they have gone up to some degree.

But anyway why the hell do they keep popping up if the predisposition and mutated genes end up getting weeded out?

John Craig said...

Anon --
The only theory I can come up with is that the genes for these conditions in their less dominant form must convey some sort of advantage, as the anonymous commenter of 12:50AM (you?) pointed out.

Anonymous said...

John,

About genes, I have no clue....

I'm just a layman, and I'll give you another layman's difference between BPDs and bipolars. Bipolars when in the grip of their manic phases have no conception of reality. They might as well be schizophrenic.

The BPD is always in this world. I'll give you an example of my loathsome BPD neighbor. Everything to her is a case of one up"woman"ship. I happened to mention that I have no problems falling asleep, I can sleep on a bare floor, if I have to, and have. She has terrible sleep problems and interpreted my comment as callous cruel bragging. I swear, I wasn't, it was just a response to something she said.

BPDs use their foul tempers as a means of control. As you said, you are always walking on eggshells around them.

I finally gave up talking to this neighbor. I had to set boundaries and with her, it's complete freeze out. I can't say that of my bipolar friend. He's not exactly Brian Wilson in accomplishment but he is brilliant and highly creative. So that's another thing about BPD's - they are usually puffed up mediocrities.

Puzzled

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
I haven't had the experience of bipolars completely losing touch with reality the way you have, but I agree with you completely about borderlines. As you've said, I've never been able to completely relax around them, because you never know how they might react to a relatively innocuous comment. So, my guard is usually up, at least to some extent.

After all you've told me about your borderline neighbor, I almost want to meet her, just out of curiosity.

Another difference between bipolars and borderlines: bipolars can be extremely good company, half the time.

Anonymous said...

"After all you've told me about your borderline neighbor, I almost want to meet her, just out of curiosity."

Can you stand a woman in a pussyhat? She's one of them.

"Another difference between bipolars and borderlines: bipolars can be extremely good company, half the time."

LOLyes.

Seriously - many bipolars such as Wilson are extremely creative people. Never known a BPD to be anything much, although they think they are God's gift to the world.

Puzzled

High Arka said...

John,

Since you brought up Brian Wilson, I've realized my music collection is thoroughly deficient. What exemplifies his genius, as you put it, better than Pet Sounds?

Anonymous said...

Anthony Hopkins has been diagnosed with autism/aspergers. Maybe you could write something about that?

http://www.desertsun.com/story/life/entertainment/people/brucefessierentertainment/2017/01/02/westworld-star-anthony-hopkins-explores-consciousness/96018744/

Surprising because he is an actor which requires a lot of good imitation.

Anonymous said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftUGtsdSXeU

Proof, just look at how he talks. So wooden.

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
I don't think I know any women who've worn pussyhats, though I've known that type all my life.

You're right, for some reason, borderlines usually have pretty pedestrian (and egocentric) minds.

John Craig said...

High Arka --
"Pet Sounds" was Wilson at his apex, but he had a lot of other songs that always move me (if I don't listen to them too much):

"I Can Hear Music"

"Do It Again"

"Don't Worry Baby"

And my personal favorite, "Surf's Up."

Some of the early stuff was pretty good, like "Fun Fun Fun" and "I Get Around," though it's not at the level of his 1966-67-era stuff. A lot of people seem to like two of his biggest hits, "California Girls" and "Good Vibrations," though those aren't among my favorites. The thing about Wilson is, you have to separate the music from the lyrics, a little. At the time people didn't take the Beach Boys as seriously as they did, say, the Beatles, because the Beach Boys wrote about less "serious" issues, like their high school, surfing, young love, and so on. But it was gratifying to find out later on that the other musicians of the era were all in awe of Wilson; I wrote about that here:

http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2012/05/brian-wilson.html

I'm an unsophisticated music fan; I just like whatever moves me. But I figure, anyone who has the power to do that must really be something special, because I'm generally not moved by things. (Read some of the testimonials I quote in the post I just linked; those in themselves are actually pretty moving.)

John Craig said...

Anon (of 1:11AM) --
That IS surprising, not only because he's such a good actor, but because in that interview he doesn't *sound* as if he has Aspergers. He seems to have pretty good insight, and describes his own difficulties well. (Can't help but wonder if he was somehow misdiagnosed.)

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion, but honestly, I really have nothing to say about him worth saying.

John Craig said...

Anon (of 1:25AM) --
Just watched it. I didn't think he was wooden, plus I think you have to take into account that that's an incredibly stressful situation, speaking in front of a large audience and knowing you're being watched by millions more. I also thought his body language was quite good, not stiff and uncoordinated at all. Sorry, but remain unconvinced about his Aspergers.

Anonymous said...

His diagnosis did say he was on the "high end".
Descriptions of his childhood also seem to fit. He randomly spouted off facts and had no friends.
There is a very very very small minority of people who seem to outgrow numerous symptoms, enough to lose a diagnosis:
https://spectrumnews.org/news/children-may-truly-outgrow-autism/

Also on an unrelated note, sometimes being wooden is not the case. They can be overly dramatic or eccentric when they talk and speak. Or switch between them based on mood.

So for someone famous who does have it.
Chris Packham also got a diagnosis, does he fit the bill better?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXRNY6-s-7U

He never makes consistent eye contact in that video with Attenborough. He does glance once but it seems forced. Yes it is an interview, but his way of talking comes of as monologuey. He also interrupts Attenborough a bit too.

Also ready for some irony? The creator of pokemon Satoshi Tajiri is on the autism spectrum.
(Do you know what a pokemon is ol' John? Hehe)

Anonymous said...

I don't think Hopkins has Asperberg's either. He is a recovering alcoholic. He was a terrific stage actor way back when in London and was touted to be the next Burton. He basically decided "fuck that shit"*, came to Hollywood, had a bunch of failures, and became a late in life success. I've read that his favorite thing to do is to get in a car and drive around the American west, all alone. Imagine having Tony Hopkins come into your diner in some tiny town in northern AZ?

This whole BPD subject is quite fascinating. I hope you do more about it. Not sure if I made this clear but I also used to think it was a garbage diagnosis, some crap thing made up by pseudo-scientists, but now I think it's genuine, in fact, learning about it has helped me tremendously. And when you see BPD clearly, you can see the differences between bipolars and BPDs.

Here's another difference between bipolars and BPDs: a BPD is a dead loss. They suck the living life out of you. Bipolars can be tremendous people - at least half the time, as you say. BPDs are manipulators. BPDs don't see boundaries between people. When you try to draw a healthy red line between you and them, they respond as if you are betraying them.

Once you get the feel of the difference, you see how profound the difference is and you'll never confuse the two.

Puzzled

PS You may remember the old comic saying, "Women don't get heart attacks, they give them." BPDs give people heart attacks. Bipolars don't. There's really nothing manipulative about bipolars. They are what they are, and they suffer terribly. The odd thing about BPDs is they don't suffer terribly. Show me a person with profound depression and I'll show you a person who doesn't have BPD, because the depressed person has a conscience & BPDs don't.


*my words, not his

John Craig said...

Anon --
But that was him -- at least in the article you linked -- making himself sound like a misfit. I'd think that if you make yourself sound as if you had been a misfit, rather than just *being* a misfit, you're less likely to have Aspergers. But I really don't know much about him, other than from the links you posted.

Just watched the Chris Packham video. I couldn't tell about him, either, from that clip. He just came across to me like an animal expert playing the "straight man" to Jimmy Fallon's comedian. He seemed to know what he was doing, and understand the role he was playing. On the other hand, I have noticed that people with Aspergers seem to be more drawn to animals, who are the providers of uncritical affection, and won't criticize them, unlike neurotypicals. (Not that anybody should expect or want affection from either an African porcupine or an Asian monitor lizard, the two animals he presented.)

Yes, I have heard of Pokemon, thought I might not have if I hadn't had kids.

Is this Fake Baba? (The "hehe" and "ol'John" sound like FB.)

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
If Anthony Hopkins came to my cafe in Arizona, I'd tell everyone that Hannibal Lecter had been there.

I honestly don't have that much more to say about borderline disorder. They're not quite an obsession to me the way sociopaths are, and there are a lot fewer public figures to write about who have the disorder. Sociopaths will often soar high before crashing to earth, or will do something so horrifically bad (like become serial killers) that they make the news that way. Borderlines are much more likely to just poison the immediate vicinity without doing anything dramatic enough to make headlines.

But yes, my thought progression was similar to yours. I didn't fully grasp the concept at first, but after having thought about it further, and having had the "benefit" of a couple of them in my life to make the concept come alive, I feel I understand it bette now.

And I agree with you about the difference between bipolars and borderlines. I've known several bipolars, and while they could be difficult at times, I was never left with the feeling afterwards that they were bad people.

John Craig said...

Puzzled --
PS -- Yes, so true about the depression.

Anonymous said...

Im not FB, my mistake it was Fallon not Attenborough, I got two interviews with him mixed up.
Well another sign was he said in an interview he became suicidal for a time after a pet of his died. Nobody would normally ever consider suicide because of that. He also doesn't have any "friends" he says. He is also quite obsessive over conservationism the way Al Gore is over global warming.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/sep/09/bbc-chris-packham-countryside-alliance

This article describes some of his bizarre behaviour.

Anonymous said...

This comparison and contrast going on between you two between borderline and bipolar seems reminiscent and similar to the comparisons and contrast between narcissism and aspergers. The issue of decency, suffering, intentions, depression, and more.
I wonder what we can compare next? Do any of you know what histrionic personality disorder is? I don't but I found out that there is a condition called that.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Yes, those are three strong hints in that direction.

Just from reading that article, though, I might just think he was a British-style "eccentric" rather than an Aspie.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Ha, well, I've heard of histrionic personality disorder too, it's one of the Cluster B's, but as far as know I don't know anyone with the disorder. (Actually, I probably do, but just don't realize it.)

Thinking back, there was one girl I knew in college who was basically a very nice girl, but always had to be the center of attention, and would act in such a way as to be that. (I know that sounds oxymoronic, most people who need to be the center of attention are narcissists, but this girl was actually pretty nice.)

Of course, all of my ramblings on these topics are colored by the individuals I've known who've had these disorders, so I'm sure personal biases are coming through pretty strongly.

Anonymous said...

Trust me John, that article really tones down his outrageous behaviour and outburts. An example is he had a habit of inserting very lame and inappropriate jokes on tv:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys61hCjEVIU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLL6JnM0vM

But you are not british, I understand so you would not be familiar with him that well.

Nevertheless he is really good at what he does. His autism benefits him in a narrow way, like the creativity that comes at a price with bipolar. (Bipolar though isn't just a mood disorder only, there are other symptoms such as impaired memory, difficulty with some social cues, problems with attention, and some difficulty with cognitive or executive function tasks.)

Anonymous said...

I also think it is a bit harder to diagnose the older generation of autistic folks since their behaviour may not reach the levels of a millenial tumblrina. Back then people were raised differently, they were told to shut up if they kept monologuing, they were told to listen to criticism from their parents and not talk back, or get grounded, if you acted out and made a fool of yourself that resulted in a time out, children had to take turns when playing with eachother, if a child refused to share or acted rude they didn't take that shit. Temple Grandin (such a shame she is a neurodiversity proponent, she gets so much right) points out how important this all is. Parenting needs to be a bit authoritative (not authoritarian), there has to be a balance between strictness and looseness. Goddamn millennials these days!

John Craig said...

Anonymous Britisher --
I trust you; he has Aspergers. (And, I suppose, if he says he has it himself, the odds of him not having it would be miniscule.)

Couldn't agree more about how more recent generations have been coddled. I think a lot of the behavior we see on campus (at uni, as you would say) is a direct outgrowth of that. Not having any discipline early on seems to result not only in a certain soiled attitude, but also a certain loss of contact with reality, and a sense of one's own limitations. thinking that you know more at age 19 or 20 than, say, a 40-year-old who's been in the work force for 18 years is not only deluded, it shows a sense of self that's lacking in the faintest hint of modesty.

Anonymous said...

You do show a lot of insight dissecting all the weirdos and the weasels but where does that leave the world. How about a post about “Dos and Don’ts of not raising these kinds of degenerates.”
After all your kids seem to have turned okay. That sure makes you an expert.
Not a philosophical piece just a few personal tips to stem the proliferation of sub standard humanity.

Sherie

John Craig said...

Sherie -
Thank you.

I'm definitely not an expert at raising kids. The only thing I purposely tried to do with my kids was raise them not to trust adults, and I did that by lying to them when they were young, but in such a way that it was obvious that I was lying, so they could see through me; I didn't want them to just assume that whatever adults said was the truth because they were adults, which is what I assumed until I was 15 or so. (Pathetic, I know.)

I think any advice I could give would be sort of wasted anyway, nobody is going to act any different based on whatever it is that I tell them. I could no more offer useful advice on being a good parent than I could convince someone to stop being a sociopath, or stop being a narcissistic personality. We all are whatever we are, for better or worse, and it's hard to change. And your kids are going to observe you being whatever you are for their entire childhoods, and that's the main lesson they're going to get from you.

Anonymous said...

Just a note John, Schizoaffective isn't just a touch of schizophrenia. It means that there is overlap with mood disorder involved in the symptoms but doesn't meet the criteria for just one. It affects Wilson's social life. People have tried to avoid or stay away from him because of his difficult behavior, paranoia, and personality. His alcohol and drug use didn't help with sympathy either.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you. I did look it up in Wikipedia, but am basically unfamiliar with it. Not surprising that Wilson is difficult. When someone is lionized that way, it's hard for them not to get some acquired narcissism as well. Plus he had a very difficult father, and we all end up reflections of our father in one way or another.

BTW, if you're going to comment a number of times, please use a name or pseudonym so I have some sense of whom I'm speaking to. Way too many "Anonymous's" comment here, and I can never be sure if I'm speaking to the same person. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Okay I'll call myself AnonImous for now.

I think you have written people with organic conditions can't help their behaviour to a degree, and they do deserve sympathy but it can be hard. But except for personality disorders like BPD and Narcissism where the cause is in the personality and it is who the person is, not much sympathy for them (pity maybe).

People with non-personality brain disorders such as aspies, schizophrenics, and bipolar people get most of their personality problems from the symptoms skewing their perceptions. So you know it's not coming from bad intent, and some of them can realize that their symptoms affect their judgements and biases making them more reasonable. Wilson's behaviour has gotten less irritating and unnerving as time has gone by.

Wilson has talked about his mental illness and written too, which shows more grip over what is happening to him. But earlier in his life he let his symptoms dominate him more. His wife also has admitted he isn't really in control of his life. He has a lot organized and prepared for him, people tell him what to say for interviews, and she said she has learned to not respond to some of the things he has said to her out to her of compassion. He has like I said a history of alcohol and drug use which makes it harder to feel for him since those are choices he made.

It doesn't matter what kind of guy he was, he still was great at what he did. But being great at what he did didn't change who he was to the people around him.

John Craig said...

Anonimous --
(C'mon, you can do better than that; particularly because every time I write that name from now on Autocorrect will change the "i" to a "y" and I'll have to change it back.)

Yes, I have said that organic conditions deserve sympathy, and have pointed out on several conditions that Aspies are not bad people. But as you say, the Cluster B's are hard to have sympathy for. (Though, technically, they can't help their conditions, either: if sociopaths can never be "cured," as every psychiatrist will tell you, then, by definition, they can't help but be what they are.) The difference seems to be that Aspies and other "organics" can't even help their individual actions, whereas a sociopath always has control of his actions, even if he doesn't care enough to keep himself under control, so to speak.

I always saw Wilson as a victim of his organic condition, of his father, and of his drug taking (in the 60's, if you were a self-respecting pop star, you were SUPPOSED to take some drugs). And if he had been a bad guy himself, he never would have let himself be taken advantage of by that bogus doctor who insinuated himself into Wilson's life for a while.

Heck, Wilson even LOOKED like a victim. (Was he not one of the softest-looking people ever?)

Anonymous said...

I suspect that my maternal grandmother had borderline personality disorder. She was very bossy and controlling. As far as her daughters were concerned, she didn't have strong, emotional ties to them. She was the queen of her domain and you did as you were told.

- birdie

John Craig said...

Birdie --
From what you've said it could be that, or it could be just narcissistic personality disorder.

Anonymous said...

Would someone with NPD do anything like the following - during a summer visit to her house in RI, our grandmother might take us out to dinner at a restaurant of her choosing. This woman would order our meals, having us eat what she selected for us to eat. We usually visited with her once during the summer time, then fortunately, left for home at the end of the day. We never stayed overnight at her house. She never visited her daughters (and their families) at their homes. Just a difficult personality who had a temper.

- birdie

John Craig said...

Birdie --
I don't know; she sounds incredibly controlling. Maybe she had Aspergers, and also had OCD (they're comorbid). Or, she had one of the Cluster B disorders (which includes sociopathy, borderline disorder, and narcissism, along with histrionic personality disorder). I can't tell from that anecdote.

Anonymous said...

Over the summer, my siblings vacationed with our cousins (our mothers were sisters). The cousins shared stories and concluded that our grandmother was crazy, disordered. She apparently locked their family out of her house when their family went for a day trip to MA to visit our family. She slapped one granddaughter on the face over something trivial. I just think about what my mother lived with as a child and I feel for her. My mother never spoke badly about her parents. Her mother was incredibly difficult.

- birdie

John Craig said...

Birdie --
Unfortunate for your mother. "Difficult" can be all sorts of things, though it usually means something in the Cluster B group. Of course, it could also mean mildly autistic.

Anonymous said...

Birdie, Did she display paranoid out of touch behaviour or was she mostly aware all the time? You also havent ruled out some form of dementia? Could also be autism or a schizotypal condition, hell it could be encaphilitis or long term benzo use and withdrawal for all the lord almighty and we know. Gotta give more details then we can find out.

Anonymous said...

Going through many pages of psychiatric manuals, one begins to notice a whole lot of disorders we are unaware existed. We sometimes wonder just how many people have had them who we thought were just strange, annoying, or unnerving.

I once worked at a restaurant in my 20s part time, there was a waiter who I would say was schizotypal (schizotypal is to schizophrenia is what aspergers is to Kanner's autism:

inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
Behavior or appearance that is odd, eccentric or peculiar;
Poor rapport with others and a tendency to withdraw socially;
Odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behavior and inconsistent with subcultural norms;
Suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;
Obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;
Unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;
Vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, over-elaborate or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;
Occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.

To me he had a disorder, to others they just thought he was a regular guy who was a freak and unnerving.

AnonImous (Same as guy above)

John Craig said...

AnonImous --
Sounds like you had him pegged right. To be honest I wouldn't have known what to make of him.....

Anonymous said...

My grandmother came across as normal (meaning she seemed to be grounded in reality). She could carry on a friendly conversation with anyone, but you knew that she was the boss, not to cross her. She had a dominant personality. When we visited, the house had a dark quality to it, the atmosphere. My grandfather was deceased (never knew him), leaving her very well off. There were three daughters (my mother was the middle child). The oldest daughter (a school teacher for years) apparently had a nervous breakdown as an adult, being diagnosed as schizophrenic (she heard things, having strange thoughts). This Aunt had a pleasant, friendly personality. She was a hoarder though (she kept tall stacks of newspapers in her living room, post death of her mother). Eventually, the youngest daughter took over the care of her oldest sister, having her move to her home state of GA. I remember my grandmother taking us out to dinner and as we entered the restaurant, she spotted a drunk (a complete stranger), walked over to him with a smile on her face, and gave him cash (my mother objected, but her mother ignored her), putting the money into his hands. That seemed odd to me. Anyway, I know that my grandmother was different, not a warm, loving, endearing woman. This woman died in her 80's, in the early 1980's.

- birdie

Anonymous said...

I would suspect then some being on the schizophrenic spectrum (schizotypal) due to having a schizophrenic relative. Probably combined with some personality disorder making things worse.

An0nimous.

Anonymous said...

After learning about personality disorders, I suspected my grandmother of having one. Due to her mother's influence, I suspect my mother of having had a personality disorder (she died age 91, this past December).

- birdie

Anonymous said...

Do you think borderline may be caused by having one loving or maybe doting parent and one abusive parent? Or having abusive parents but another person in your life who is not? Causing a person to alternate? They are at the borderline of sociopathy and non-sociopathy.

John Craig said...

Anon --
That's certainly possible (one loving parent, another not). One of the things cited in the literature for borderlines is the possibility of easy sexual abuse, too, and that could be at the hands of anyone.

"Borderline" makes it sound as if it's at the border of sociopathy, but I don't really see it that way. Borderlines actually delude themselves into thinking they're in the right all the time, sociopaths don't need to do that (though they're certainly capable of seeing themselves as victims when they're clearly not), and that's a crucial difference, even though some the behavior ends up being similar. Sociopaths are much more dishonest by nature, borderlines are merely delusionary.

The honest answer to your question is, I don't know what causes borderline, and don't even have a strong opinion about it. I've only known two borderlines fairly well, and have some sense of their backgrounds, but I don't know either set of parents that well, and in any case two is way too small of a sample size to draw any conclusions from.

Anonymous said...

Will you write a post about histrionic? It's that one cluster b that never seems to be written about anywhere, we know it exists but nothing more is said. Like the two blue wizards in Lord of the Rings (are you old enough to get that reference? hehehehe)

John Craig said...

Anon --
Honestly, I know little about histrionic disorder; I prefer to write about things where I've had at least a little personal experience. I suppose I must have known people with the disorder, but never recognized it as such, and have devoted no thought to it. (Or maybe, I've known so many of them in my life that it just seems normal to me.)

Now that you mention it, though, "histrionic" does seem to describe the behavior we've seen at recent demonstrations quite well, and I've always found the intersection of politics and psychology fascinating (and an underanalyzed field).

Sorry, don't know the two blue wizards. Am I not old enough? Or too old? (I'm guessing the latter.) I did read "The Fellowship of the Rings" in 1967, when I was 13.

Anonymous said...

Oh wait, I found out what histrionics are, nymphomaniacs and hedonists. If you have met one, then they were histrionic. They seek out and seduce people for pleasure and are egotistical and hedonistic. It seems to be the least damaging cluster b disorder concerning violence. I wonder what it is doing up there with psychopathy when it sounds just like extreme bitchiness or douchbaggery.

Here is what I got from wikipedia:

PRAISE ME

Provocative (or seductive) behavior
Relationships are considered more intimate than they actually are
Attention-seeking
Influenced easily by others or circumstances
Speech (style) wants to impress; lacks detail
Emotional lability; shallowness
Make-up; physical appearance is used to draw attention to self
Exaggerated emotions; theatrical

So hedonists and pleasure seekers. We have probably met so many people in our life with disorders which we chalked up to personality differences.

I also read that only 2% of the USA or worlds population (can't remember) is truly "healthy". It doesn't have to be a severe disorder. Almost everyone has something going on like a video game addiction, depression, irrational phobias, anger management, addiction food (every single obese person minus the few with legitimate disorders like cushings disease or thyroid problems) and more. That 2% of "healthy people" are the minority obviously.

Have you ever shared some of the problems you have struggled with in life?

John Craig said...

Anon --
You're right, that doesn't sound all that rare. Those characteristics also sound quite female, to b honest, at least the way they're phrased. I"m not sure i"d classify all hedonists as histrionics, the hedonism has to be accompanied by dramatics to qualify.

Two percent?? I suppose everyone has SOMETHING wrong with them. But what a lot of people have wrong with them doesn't really impinge on other people that much, and I'm less interested in the garden variety neurosis-type stuff.

If I had to classify myself -- and this is something I HAVE thought about, obviously, I'd say I'm a depressive and also neurotic. As far as the tendency to depression, I've pretty much warded that off with exercise most of my life. And when I succumb, it just means I'm in a lousy mood and things seem bleak. (In a way, you could say this entire blog is an a expression of that outlook.)

As far as being neurotic, I've written a 20-part series called "Confessions of a beta male," in which my every reaction and thought could be classified as that of a neurotic.

Anonymous said...

We may need to reevaluate some people who we thought were narcissists who actually were histrionic. Both are egocentric and egotistical, but the histrionic's behaviour doesn't stem from being the same kind of egotistical a narcissist is. The narcissistic is in love with themselves and seeks other pleasure, attention, and other people's praise to secure their own ego. The histrionic person also seeks out attention, pleasure, and praise too, but for its own sake. They seek them out because they want to directly get high off it.

John Craig said...

Anon --
(Please use some sort of pseudonym, so I know I'm talking to the same person.)

Agreed, it would be easy to mistake histrionics for narcissists. I've thought a little since (I assume) you mentioned histrionics. I can't help but wonder if a fair number of the rioters we've seen since Trump got elected don't suffer from this disorder.

And you're right, it is a fine line but your description of the essential difference rings true.

Anonymous said...

http://healthresearchfunding.org/histrionic-vs-narcissistic/

More differences, the histrionic is fragile and insecure inside and need validation to keep themselves going. The narcissist thinks every is already fine and demands attention to keep confirm what they already believe..

Anthony (I think you may remember me)

John Craig said...

Anthony --
That's a pretty good summation.

I apologize, but I don't remember your name. I don't think you've commented under it recently. (And I'll assume you're neither narcissistic nor histrionic and therefore won't be too offended that I don't remember.) I did recognize your "voice" (especially the "hehe") from recent comments, but there have been over 2400 posts now, and most of the recent ones have gotten a fair number of comments, so......sorry.

Anonymous said...

I feel confused by what Borderlines are like since I never met one in person.
My impression was it was like this from some articles or videos on the subject:

DFASEFWRFSRA I am so angry you stupid SFSDFSGWSG, rage!!@!!!!#@#! I hate you!!!!

10 minutes later

Sorry! please! Sob sob! Ahhhh please dont abandon me!!!!! Why do you hate me? I just want you to forgive me pllllleeeeassseee!

I found a youtube video, some comments were from people with the condition saying how they wish they didn't have it and more, commonsensical, aware of the problems they have and they cause others.

But! I did see someone post on a forum who definitely was borderline but she wasn't like this. It was more like:

You asfafsae worthless scum! I do so much but you all treat me like garbage you hateful bigots! (Expletitives)

10 minutes later

"What is this borderline? It is a sexist term for just PTSD. (Acts nice in public around people but later talks bade about them)" (justifys outburst) I am such an empathetic and sensitive person, I love music and art, so deep and full of compassion (but only for people she relates to or likes).

no pleading or sobbing or begging for forgiveness

Maybe there are two subtypes? Were the internet posts I saw from this person too subjective? Were the youtube comments different? From people wishing to be treated? What is going on I am confused!

The former portrayal seems like a legitimate mental disorder, the other I saw looks like just being a bitch/bastard.

-Ga

John Craig said...

Ga --
My experience is that it is more the latter; you're describing it accurately. The former sounds more like bipolar, or something else. Of the two borderlines I've known, neither was ever apologetic. But again, I'm working from a (known) sample size of two, so I'm not exactly an authority, and it's possible there are subtypes I'm unaware of.

Also, their moods didn't swing quite that fast. One in particular could stay angry for days. And neither had what I'd consider good character. (It IS a Cluster B disorder.) There is a fair amount of conniving that goes on, and also a lot of convincing themselves that they're in the right even when they're obviously not.

Anonymous said...

I remember taking a look at the DSM a way back. There were two disorders I noticed. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder and Obsessive Compulsive personality disorder. A person with OCD can likely have aquired OCDP I imagine. One is organic, a disorder where you do things like wash your hands over and over while being fully aware there is no point, or have to arrange all your pencils in order for hours while in tears knowing you can't stop yourself.

The other is a personality disorder where you are:
"characterized by a general pattern of concern with orderliness, perfectionism, excessive attention to details, mental and interpersonal control, and a need for control over one's environment, at the expense of flexibility, openness to experience, and efficiency."

Maybe there is a type of Borderline disorder that is not a character defect, but something more like PTSD, differences would show up in a brain scan. You fluctuate from angry and lashing out to sobbing and realizing what you've done, you are not in control of your temper, you live in constant anxiety and fear, you don't know what you will do next to those around you.

I imagine the people diagnosed with BPD who do want to seek help and think something is wrong with them may have this more organic type. It wouldn't be a personality disorder but something else, maybe a stress/trauma/mood disorder.

The other is a character defect, a true personality disorder where you are just a bastard/bitch who thinks everyone is against you. You lash out, but because you are just incredibly mad and a needy person.

That was a hypothesis I thought of.

Also there is a disorder I remember called "schizotypal personality disorder" which, looking at, doesn't seem like personality disorder, the symptoms seem clinical (or at least subclinical) enough to be organic like thought process disorder/impairment, disorganized speech, poor social cognition, motor retardation, and difficulty with eye contact, doesn't seem like having a problematic behavior is the cause. Why do they call it a personality disorder if it's like that?

Also among cluster B I noticed Histrionic. My theory: I think the difference between Histrionic and narcissism is the former is vainglory and the latter pride as the sin.

Vainglory is one of the 9 Christian deadly sins during the middle ages (they had 2 extra, the other is "despair" not depression but self defeatism and indulging yourself in misery like "poor me! why me! The world sucks! I'm staying in my mother's basement until I die!".

It roughly translates to "vanity" now, but the difference is during the 12-15th century, vainglory was not associated with egoism nor had narcissistic undertones back then, rather it was associated with FUTILITY. (I am still trying to piece together what they fully meant. Deliberately engaging in futile actions over and over itself is a destructive behavior I imagine.)

To either, the world revolves around them, but a narcissist is full of pride, a histrionic would be a very very futile person.

-Ga

John Craig said...

Ga --
Interesting, the difference between OCD and OCPD.

My impression of the two borderlines I've known is that it's a character defect, not something organic. Though who knows, it's always impossible to say how much of anything is organic vs. environmental/circumstance. Certain sociopaths have evidently become that way because of frontal lobe damage, so who knows. The mere fact that "Borderline" is one of the four Cluster B's, though, makes me think of it as a character disorder.