Now, I have no doubt that what all those women are saying about Harvey Weinstein and James Toback are true. And I'm pretty sure that the allegations against Kevin Spacey are true too. There are simply too many people pointing their fingers in the same direction.
But still, none of these guys have been convicted in a court of law, yet their careers have been derailed. Is this fair?
In the case of those three, their trespasses were so blatant, so constant, and so aggressive, that even if they somehow escape conviction, they deserve the verdicts handed down in the court of public opinion. And they deserve to lose their lofty Hollywood status.
But there have been other guys tarred by the #Metoo movement, guys who aren't really guilty of anything other than being a little pushy in the ways that guys often are.
Roy Price, whom I'd never heard of him before the scandal that enveloped him, had to resign from his job as head of Amazon Studios because the executive producer of one Amazon show accused him of lewdly propositioning her on several occasions in 2015. She didn't accuse him of grabbing her, or touching her, or being overly forceful. Merely of propositioning her.
Jeremy Piven was accused of putting his hands on the breasts and bum of Ariane Bellamar --
-- at a party at the Playboy mansion. I have no doubt that Piven's a jerk, and he's undoubtedly worse when he's had a few drinks. But does an awkward pass really reach the level of "assault?"
Dustin Hoffman has also been accused of sexual harassment. Hoffman evidently asked a 17-year-old intern if she'd had sex that weekend, and other mildly intrusive flirtation. He also reportedly put his hand on her butt a couple of times. I know Hoffman's type: an older guy who hides his horniness under the guise of friendly banter, as if he's just a playful uncle. Meanwhile, he's hoping that she'll give him some sign she's interested, but he's not quite willing to make an overt play because he doesn't want to suffer a rejection. (At least give that much to Weinstein: he put himself out there, and didn't play coy.) In any case, Hoffman's was a common type of behavior, and hardly worthy of being brought up 30 years later.
Another point has to be made here. If a good-looking guy acts in exactly the same way, and these women found him attractive, they might have just gone to bed with him. But when an ugly guy follows the same script, he's guilty of sexual harassment.
So the exact same behavior is either rewarded, or punished, depending largely on how good-looking the guy is. Somehow, that doesn't seem quite right.
(Would this current #Metoo movement even exist if Harvey Weinstein weren't so hideous?) Note that Warren Beatty, one of the most famous womanizers of all time, has yet to be named.
Here's another thing to consider: would all of these women be coming forward if these men weren't famous? Of course not.
I made my share of awkward and occasionally overly aggressive passes when I was young. I guess it's a good thing I never became famous, otherwise I'd be up for my 15 minutes of shame. (To paraphrase Andy Warhol.)
At least, with all these new "victims" coming forward, let's stop calling them courageous. It would have taken courage to be the first person to accuse Weinstein, or someone else. But after all these other women have already come forward? It's merely lemming-like.
As I said earlier, Weinstein deserves the censure he's gotten, and if he's guilty of rape, he should go to prison.
But in the cases of some of the other guys, it's a lot more questionable. Just a few unsubstantiated allegations and someone's career is derailed?
This doesn't seem quite fair.
Posts
34 comments:
"they deserve the verdicts handed down in the court of public opinion"
Since their careers were made in the court of public opinion, their careers will be destroyed there as well. The Lord giveth, etc. An entertainer's career is based on the good will of the public. (Weinstein isn't an entertainer technically, but he is part of the same ecosystem.) When he takes that for granted, he's finished. That's a different issue from the legal system however.
I think that what David Boies did for Weinstein was horrible.
Just personally I put Hoffman's behavior in a different category from all this. Did you read the article by the girl who said he harassed her? She was extremely immature for a 17 year old. Her handwriting (there were samples) looked like those of a 10 year old. The director of the movie came to Hoffman's defense. He said that everyone joshed about sex, all the time. I think Hoffman was a jerk, and he should have seen that this was an awkward kid, and should have laid off, but it's not the same as jerking off in front of a woman, or raping her, or nearly raping a 14 year old.
I welcome the revelations. I think there are worse to come. But I don't want to get into a witch hunt.
JMO.
Lolly
Lolly --
What you say is true, but it wasn't quite public opinion that got Weinstein fired from his firm, ousted from the Academy, etc. And it wasn't public opinion that got Spacey fired from Netflix etc. It was just a small handful of people in all those cases who decided to take the word of the accusers. (I think the accusers are telling the truth, but still.....)
Boies is a lawyer, meaning he is a legal whore; it's a lawyer's job to defend murderers, or whoever hires them. If it was Boies' suggestion to hire Black Cube, then yes, that was pretty sleazy. But keep in mind, a lawyer's effectiveness is often a function of the depths to which they will stoop.
I agree with you about Hoffman. And the fact that his name has been brought up for that is sort of an indication that this whole thing HAS tried into a witch hunt.
I think Hoffman's behaviour crossed the line. From the guardian:
"he said, ‘I’ll have a hard-boiled egg … and a soft-boiled clitoris.’ His entourage burst out laughing. I left, speechless. Then I went to the bathroom and cried."
“Today, when I was walking Dustin to his limo, he felt my ass four times,” she wrote. “I hit him each time, hard, and told him he was a dirty old man.”
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/nov/01/dustin-hoffman-accused-of-sexual-harassment-against-17-year-old
Feeling somebody up as you make a drunken pass at them in a party is one thing but it sounds like he did it repeatedly after it was made clear she wasn't interested. Somebody smacks your hand away forcefully and then you grab their ass again, then again, then again.
And she was a junior colleague who had to be there with him, which makes it seem extra distasteful to me. He was being persistent and inappropriate enough to really upset her.
I'm not saying its bad enough to completely destroy his career...he didn't rape anyone...but its clearly bad behaviour and I wouldn't want the attitude to be its just one of those things guys do. He's not a Weinstein but he was a dick, not worthy of jail but maybe worthy of being punched a couple of times by a male relative of the girl.
This is a good example of accusations alone ruining someone: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/08/carl-sargeant-was-not-told-detail-of-harassment-allegations-say-friends
This politician was recently sacked because of accusations, not told the details, and he killed himself as a result.
You're kidding. McCain, Pelosi and The Hildabeast got you too? And here I was thinking I was the only one.
Steven --
I think that woman said that she was flattered by the attention at first (I read that somewhere), and said that it was only after a while that she felt uncomfortable. It's quite possible that she was starstruck at first and Hoffman saw that and took encouragement from her initially positive responses, in which case it's harder to blame him. Also, when you go back 30 years, it's a little like judging historical figures by today's standards. Back in the 1980's, which is when the incident took place, "sexual harassment" as it is now defined was not a thing the way it is now, and it was more common for people to talk dirty, especially in a joking way. And if that woman -- then 17 years old -- at first reacted positively to the attention, then later essentially changed her mind and went into a bathroom and cried, is Hoffman to blame for her mood shift? Women tend to experience mood swings, and if I were to be held responsible for every such emotional swing that happened on my watch, I'd be in big trouble. As would every other guy.
All of which is not to say that Hoffman strikes me as sot of a hole. I'm sure that as the iconic actor he is (I think he's way overrated as an actor, but that doesn't mean he's not an icon), he's got a certain amount of learned narcissism.
It sounds as if that British politician Sergeant was screwed over fairly badly. He, by the way, is another example of an ugly guy who was considered a harasser, who probably wouldn't have been had he been better-looking.
Luke --
Ha!
Well if enough of us poor victims come forward, maybe we can bring them down.
I am waiting with baited breath for the accusations to start rolling against the women. Why is this all so one-sided when we KNOW that rich successful women, especially if they're older, are grabbing, groping, straddling, propositioning and, um, taking the fruit against the fruit bearer's desire or preference?
This most definitely has turned into a witch hunt. It's become grotesque. It's what happens in the world, everywhere, in every sector of society, every day. I've had men do pretty much all that the celebrities have been accused of -- groped, fondled, and exposed to, and I categorically affirm that the incidents did not leave me with lasting lifelong damage. It was gross and uncivilized, and obviously none of these men ended up winning the gentleman award. But we're not a very noble species -- and this only goes to prove Freud right: we sure think about sex all the time. It'd be nice if we stayed a CULTURAL animal and repressed the desire to copulate indiscrimately, but.. that's a cultural ideal.
Personally, I'd rather risk getting groped any day than live in a dreadful Utopia where no one dares be alone with anyone anymore, and where our private lives are on public and transparent display for fear of allegations and litigation (not to mention prosecution). Unfortunately, this is where I see where this is all headed.
Ambivalent Misanthrope --
Thank you, what a perfectly expressed, commonsensical sentiment. This entire #Metoo movement is an outgrowth of the current victimology culture, where everybody wants to pose as a victim and gain status thusly. And now "microaggressions" has come to include dirty talk, and groping. And yes, if we lived in an entirely sterile, antiseptic environment where nobody made passes at anyone else for fear of public censure, it would be incredibly boring.
One quibble: I don't think we're going to see a huge outpouring of accusations against women, unless they're from other women. For one thing, most guys would be embarrassed to say that they were somehow "scarred" by a woman making a pass at them. And for another, I honestly don't think women make those kinds of aggressive passes, for the most part. I'm sure there are exceptions, but as a rule, no.
One exception: when Hillary molested me. I was forever scarred by that, and just haven't been the same since.
John, thank you. :-) I'm going to quibble back, though, and say that we're not hearing about the women doing the 'harrassing' for the reason you cite, namely, that men are just not willing to castrate themselves publicly like that, and not because women generally don't do that. Women do it all the time. Look at the growing list of women school teachers getting caught doing it all -- including intercourse -- with their barely pubescent male students. They're getting caught more nowadays because of technology and gadgets that leave hard evidence around. Female prison guards and staff of all stripes get frisky with inmates every single day somewhere. I'm willing to bet staff at male juvenile facilities have taken great liberties in these settings.
Actress Demi Moore was said to be extremely aggressive about 'coming on' (i.e., harrassing and groping) young men. Where are these young men today, screeching trauma and assault?
On this, I love you guys. Please don't turn into whiny fake victims. I'm embarrassed for my gender and apologize for all the undignified hysterical hypocrisy.
Oh, meant to say: shhh, don't tell anyone, but Hillary molested me too. Maybe I'm scarred by that one. I should probably go to therapy and recover my memories on that to get to the bottom of all my problems.
I think the Dustin Hoffman situation is more, not less egregious than many of the other Hollywood pervs. First, we are talking about a minor, a SEVENTEEN year old girl vs. a powerful boss, a celebrity, surrounded by his chortling yes-men. She is looking to adults to determine how to act in her FIRST professional job.
Second, this is not he said she said. She kept a detailed daily journal of the happenings on set, which included repeated unwanted physical touching. She is now in her forties, and looking back at the situation she was in when young, vulnerable and naive. What gives men like this the right to make sport of young people who are inferior in position and ability to fight back?
I wouldn’t think so little of him had this been an assistant who was closer in age, someone with the resources to hold her own. When someone torments a subordinate like this, I think he is the lowest and worst of men, and the same for the other men who saw this and did not defend her. Imagine if someone did this to your daughter.
"wasn't public opinion" -John, I don't buy that. It's true that I don't possess a "public opinon-o-meter" the way I check my temperature with a thermometer, but I think the public opinion was swift and brutal. Not one person defended either, because they all knew that this had been going on for years. Spacey had been outed numerous times on gay gossip sites (yes, I read one after the shit hit the fan, and they called it in 2011!!), so I'd say that it was popularity by public opinion, death by public opinion.
About Hoffman, here is this:
http://deadline.com/2017/11/volker-schlondorff-dustin-hoffman-sexual-harassment-kidder-1202201398/
I'm not a Hoffman fan either, just saying, look...this is SHOW BIZ. He was def' a bullying jerk, but that's simply the human race.
Read the writer's original piece, look it up yourself, she ends with this hysterical thing about how Frank McCourt put his arms around her. Stupid chick hopping on a bandwagon, IMO.
Weinstein: the real scandal here is using the security companies (ex-Mossad, etc.) to intimidate. Every woman who went into his hotel room knew what she was doing.
What about the pedos and pederasts? When is that shoe gonna drop? I say never. No boy who worked on a movie set asked to be fucked up the ass. But so far we are focusing on only women who were of age (mostly).
What's up with that?
Lolly
Ambivalent Misanthrope --
Yes, there seems to be a rash of women teachers having affairs with their students, and powerful women do have affairs with younger men. But there's a difference between women who do this and men. I doubt any of the women who had affairs with their high school students closed the door, leaned against it and demanded sex in return for a good grade. Or, after being turned down, pulled up their skirt and masturbated in front of the boys. Or, physically overpowered them. (I've always had a hard time seeing those 16- or 17-year-old boys who have affairs with hot 25-year-old teachers as being "victims." And yes, I know sometimes the teachers are older and the boys younger, but you know what I mean.)
Your apology would be accepted, except that I'm a firm believer that nobody has to apologize for anything they didn't do. It's the whiny fake victims who should apologize, not you. It'd sort of be like me apologizing on behalf of all the men who've raped and murdered women. It'd sorta be....misplaced. (Likewise, I don't believe that white people should have to apologize for the since of their ancestors, any more than blacks should have to apologize on behalf of their brethren who drive up the crime rates.)
Ha, if we can just gather enough victims, we can bring Hillary down. Although, I guess she's already done a god job of that herself.
Oh, and regarding your earlier comment -- "Personally, I'd rather risk getting groped any day...." -- I'll bear that in mind for the future.
LBD --
I never suggested that the girl who worked with Hoffman wasn't telling the truth; I'm sure she is. (Just as I said earlier that I'm sure that those other accusers were, too.) And was he "making sport of her?" And did he "torment" her? That's one way to look at it, but you could also characterize what he said to her as playful teasing, or joking, or flirtation.
Also, keep in mind, this woman said that she was flattered by the attention at first, then only grew uncomfortable with it over time. If she was receptive to his brand of humor, or touching, at first, I'd guess he was encouraged by that. And I'd also guess that if he'd known that she'd gone into a bathroom and started crying as a result of his actions, he would have stopped immediately.
Don't get me wrong, I think Hoffman is an obnoxious jerk. I've never been able to stand him, have always avoided watching movies he's in, and think he's way overrated in terms of acting ability. In fact he represents almost everything I despise about Hollywood. I just don't see this particular incident as being all that egregious.
Here's a comparison. You mentioned recently that when you were 17, an assistant director on Broadway at a show where you were working as an usher came on to you, offering to help you getting roles, etc, which you weren't interested in. This guy made actual serious overtures to you, he was considerably older (32, as I recall), and he may have been lying about his ability to promote your "career" -- which you didn't aspire to. That is, on the surface at least, worse than what Hoffman did, which was more humorous in spirit. Were you scarred by that experience? Did you go into the bathroom and cry because of it? ) I'm guessing not.) You're tougher than most, but I'm also guessing most 17-year-old girls would not have seen this as an occasion for tears. Now, if that guy had gone on to become powerful, say, another Harvey Weinstein, you could now come forward and paint picture -- without, technically, lying -- of how traumatizing that incident was. But was it? I didn't get that impression from the comment in which you described it; I got the impression you were just mildly put off by his overtures -- which, to me, is the commonsensical reaction to them.
Here's another, somewhat related question: you said that this guy wasn't bad-looking, and probably could have gotten women simply by being nice, as opposed to making offers to help them with their careers. Had he been grotesquely ugly, say, like Harvey, or simply unattractive, like Dustin, would you have been more put off? But would his "crime" have been any worse by virtue of his ugliness?
Lolly --
But it wasn't public opinion; it was the board of directors of Netflix, in Spacey's case. (Or maybe it was just Reed Hastings, CEO of Netflix, who knows.) Likewise, it was just the BOD of the Weinstein Company who ousted Harvey, not the public at large who fired him from that job. Now, you can say that these boards *feared* pubic opinion, and that's why they decided to separate themselves from these guys and the smell of scandal which will henceforth follow them wherever they go. But, in all these cases so far, it's just been a select few who made the decision to fire Weinstein and Spacey etc.
I agree, by the way, that Weinstein's and Spacey's behavior were open secrets before the NY Times and the New Yorker "officially" broke the news. Ditto for Louis CK, and I'm guessing Steven Seagal and Oliver Stone are going to be up next. And that speaks to the hypocrisy of the boards which only divorced themselves from the offenders after the scandals became public; there's simply no way they didn't know bout thee behavior all along.
I also totally agree about Black Cube. That was really pretty loathsome.
Cory Feldman has been screaming about pederasts in Hollywood for a long time; maybe now someone will finally listen. Bryan Singer the producer was accused of that a while back, but as far as I know, nothing became of it.
John,
Itz getting stranger by the day.
This is a story about Cook county prisoners masturbating in front of women.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2017/11/08/inmate-indecent-exposure-lawsuit/
"Hundreds of women working at the Cook County Defenders Office have filed a class action lawsuit, alleging the office has not done enough to stop sexual advances by male inmates.
A 28-page federal lawsuit basically states enough is enough when it comes to what female public defenders endure inside Cook County Jail and its adjacent courthouse. The complaint states the six plaintiffs have been repeatedly subjected to “indecent exposure, masturbation, assault and battery” by detainees in lock-up"
Guess who's going to pay for this? taxpayers!
John:
Apples and oranges. First of all, the director in my case was not my boss and had nothing to do with whether my job continued. He had absolutely no power over me. It’s not a crime to ask someone to go on a date, nor is it an occasion for heart burnings and tears. I was house staff, not his employee. I worked for the theater, not the play. Admittedly I was a bit more streetwise than the average girl my age, but I also had some scary family members in close proximity. I wasn’t nearly as vulnerable as someone on a set away from home, I was in my own neighborhood.
What IS an occasion for tears is to be humiliated by grotesque sexual comments (soft boiled clitoris for example) UGH! in front of a crowd of laughing adult men. Of course she was amenable at first, before it took such a turn. She was in a dream job, with big stars, but she was SEVENTEEN. It was not for him to push the envelope to the point where she was scared and disgusted. Were this my daughter Hoffman would have been walking with a permanent limp.
Europeasant ---
You're right. It's outrageous: inmates misbehave, so law-abiding citizens have to pay. I've always thought the idea of having women guards in men's prisons was just asking for trouble. Not only do some of them have affairs with the inmates, the ones who have no interest in them that way are exposed to this sort of thing. The only reason I don't say it makes even less sense than having women as combat troops is because national security isn't at stake the same way in the prisons.
(I also don't think men should be guards in women's prisons, though mostly for a somewhat different reason: because the temptation for sexual abuse on the part of the guards is too great. Of course, I suppose if they don't have male guards, then you'll just get a lot of big tough lesbians as guards, and the sexual abuse will continue.)
Inmates have evidently always done this, by the way. It's just that it's gotten a little more publicity recently. I remember hearing of this 30 years ago.
LBD --
Hoffman wasn't a producer of that movie, so he wasn't technically her boss. He was the star of the show, and as such, had power, and if he'd made a big enough fuss, I'm sure he could have gotten that girl fired. But it wasn't directly a boss/employee relationship. As I said, I think Hoffman is an obnoxious jerk, and he was essentially showing off for his male audience with her and trying to show what a regular, earthy fellow he was. But I'd guess he was also trying to make her laugh at the same time -- as badly as he bungled that.
I always said when my kids were young that if anybody ever molested them, I'd kill him. (Whether or not I'd have actually done that is doubtful, but that's how I felt at the time.) But if someone made some off-color jokes to my daughter when she was 17? I honestly don't think I would have gotten that angry. Putting his hand on her ass? That may have been a different matter. But either way, if the guy were walking with a permanent limp as a result, that would far more likely have been my daughter's doing than mine.
(I'm proud to report that both my son and daughter are tougher than me, though that's not saying much.) And I'm quite sure that you're tougher than both my daughter and me.
John:
we’re on the same page re: protecting our own. I always said if someone did that to a child in my family, they would not go to prison but I would.
John - Do you think Harvey is surprised about the way Hollywood has treated him and the way this is all washing out?
He's kind of been chosen as the head scapegoat.
Everyone can project their shame onto him.
Any thoughts?
I don't think he saw it coming.
Shaun
Shaun --
Yes, sociopaths like Harvey think they can keep fooling the world forever. I'm sure he's stunned by the way Hollywood has turned on him. After all, in his mind, he was one of the *good* guys: a liberal Democrat. And he produced a lot of Oscar-winning movies, too, so he was a winner. And I'm sure he felt that being Jewish in a Jewish-dominated industry offers him a certain protection as well. But absolutely no one stood by him, not even his own brother. And the Board of Directors at his own company and his wife wasted no time in dumping him either. He must have been an incredibly difficult personality.
Noone stood by him? Well it is bad form in a victim culture to stand by the person that is being scapegoated.
Shaun --
I wouldn't exactly call Weinstein a "scapegoat."
The definition of such, from Google:
"a person who is blamed for the wrongdoings, mistakes, or faults of others, especially for reasons of expediency."
Harvey is only having his feet held to the fire for his own sins, not anyone else's. You might call him the most prominent sexual predator in Hollywood. You can call him a rapist. You can call him a sociopath (as I have). But he's not a fall guy; he has only himself blame this own downfall. And the fact that he treated everyone else so poorly is what filled so many with glee at his downfall.
My guess is that he takes solace in seeing Louis C.K., Kevin Spacey, Brett Ratner, and so many others falling as well.
I personally am tired of learning about who did what to whom. A Pandora's box has been opened.
- Susan
Susan --
I have to admit, I haven't come close to getting tired of it yet. Especially since so many of the guys being accused presented themselves as great humanitarians and/or feminists.
Bang on.
Can't wait to see how many of these posers, pretenders, fakers, pontificators come out
with everything split wide open.
Who will be next, is the new suspense show going on.
Sherie
Sherie --
Exactly. The greatest part of this whole thing is that the guys being exposed are those who would act horrified if they heard about this type of behavior on the part of someone else.
I think that @Metoo has gone too far, but it's still enjoyable.
The other way around would not be noticed. I remember a trip to Thailand when I was 15, I went into a 7-11 and walking out with a soda, some old lady probably in her 60s came up and said "come home with me young boy" while feeling my shoulders, being even worse with social skills at a younger age, I said "I am 15, too young", she said "I like fucking young boys" and I just walked away.
Of course women are smaller, I wasn't scared, and it's not like she could have lifted me up and dragged me unwillingly unless she used steroids or something. Okay that's fair, but are we supposedly judging by intentions or results? What if a small short 5 foot 4 skinny scrawny man does that to some 5 foot 10 athletic woman ? She wouldn't feel threatened.
But cases aren't judged case by case, the individual(s) is not a minority despite being the most important one. Rare exceptions don't exist with the public, it's too hard to comprehend unless it follows a formula. The attention span to read each story and judge on your own doesn't exist, after all, how many times have we all read something and completely unknowingly skimmed it coming to a shortsighted conclusion or interpreting deliberately to agree or disagree with us just because of who the writer is?
Imagine a stupid fan club for toasted pastries, then some author comes along and writes:
"I hate toasts, I would rather just start drinking right away"
They would attack him no matter how much he said:
"I don't mean toasted bread, I mean "toast" as in the stuff you do at a party before...."
Then they would say "Oh you meant toasted buns, not sliced bread?!?!?!?! You idiot! How dare you! Toasted confectionaries and breads all are amazing! #!@$#!@$!$@$#$#@$#@$#"
They would still keep attacking him. He could say everything out loud to a crowd, but their ears would not hear anything except "I hate toasts" even with the little plural -s at the end implying something other than toasted bread.
They can't see the whole context. Likewise when they see now allegations or passes written as sexual assault, they can't interpret the story at all. Their decision has already been made even if it means outright misinterpreting the story to the point they are not only not right, they are not even wrong (like that toast fanclub example, or a more bizarre real life example, radfem hub maybe).
-Ga
Ga --
I hadn't realized there was sex tourism in Thailand for older ladies as well. I heard that went on in the Caribbean, and Africa, but not in Thailand. when I was 15 I would have been grossed out by the idea of having sex with a 60-year-old woman.
"I'd like to take this opportunity to announce that Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, and John McCain have all molested me." Ha, ha, ha! Best line I've seen in a long time. Um, me too!
Last night after seeing yet another story out of Hollyweird about another victim I asked my wife if half of Hollywood is victim to the other half of Hollywood that is predator? #MeToo seems to fit perfectly.
And to answer, yes, it seems a mere allegation is enough to shame someone for life and ruin their career. It's a political move most of the time, used to take out an opponent. In the case of Hollywood it seems to be a move to make yourself relevant again at any cost even if short-lived. They're used to living in a fantasy world.
Nah, it was just some creepy local lady, English was accented. Not drunk I think, but not exactly sober. It was weird.
But I've a guy say he was hit on a few times by regular girls in Thailand, maybe it is more acceptable there, I don't seem to notice it in Hong Kong or the USA parts I've been in.
Have you ever seen a female hit on a male in any way?
-Ga
Not Dave --
Thank you; the list of victims grows...
You're right, it does seem as if they're all running political smear campaigns against each other. Some of the stuff is worth reporting, i.e., the rapes and the masturbating in front of women, some of the other stuff, i.e., the dirty talk, seems hardly worth recounting.
Ga --
I have to wonder if some of the guys who think they've been hit on by regular girls weren't in fact being encouraged by prostitutes. Guys have a tendency to flatter themselves that way.
I've seen plenty of females make it apparent that they're available, but I can't recall a female ever saying anything like "Wanna fuck?" or anything quite that blatant, no.
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