The best way to deal with a sociopath is the same way he deals with you -- by focusing on his weaknesses. In his case, that means his vanity, his desire for admiration, and his need to hide his true character.
If he's been misbehaving -- something you can always count on -- raise the subject of sociopathy in some oblique way. This implies you're starting to suspect him, and in an attempt to dissuade you from your suspicions, he may actually behave, temporarily.
Alternatively, ask something along the lines of, "You never talk about your mother much. What was she like when you was growing up?" This is likely a sensitive point, and may spark a strong reaction. But it will also imply that you're at least somewhat onto him.
If you're in the mood to anger him, ask, clumsily, "Hey, what did you think of Ted Bundy?" -- as if you think he's going to blurt out, "Oh, I thought he was a great guy!" This will show him you're onto him, and you can have the satisfaction of making him bristle at your incredibly awkward attempt at psychoanalysis.
(I'm not seriously recommending the above paragraph.)
But the overall idea is to imply that you're wondering about whether he's a sociopath, without making it a statement of fact. There's a chance he'll think he can fool you into thinking that he's not one, and will be on his best behavior, at least for a while, as a result.
Other hints:
Sociopaths tend to think they're fooling people when they're not. Let your sociopath think he's fooling you when he's not. Express admiration for one of his claimed accomplishments you know is false, then get him to embroider on it. Then, once he's painted himself into a corner, you can pick it apart.
Sociopaths are particularly susceptible to flattery. Tell your sociopath he's too smart to do something you don't want him to do.
Let him think others admire him for something you want him to do; he'll likely believe it. For example, tell him that people admire him for his loyalty, and that you know he's the kind of stand up guy who'll show up to help at a certain occasion. He may be swayed.
When a sociopath is in full lying mode, tape him surreptitiously, or even videotape him. It's easy enough to do with a smartphone. Just have it ready, then hit "record" at the appropriate moment. It may be unethical, but he would do the same to you. (Of course, that's the same justification he uses to do similar things to everyone else.)
Just be ready for the sociopath's revenge; make no mistake, it will be uninhibited. But, have that smartphone handy. He probably won't be able to resist threatening you first. So get him on record making the threat.
But the best advice, as always, is simply to put as much distance as you can between yourself and him.
If he's been misbehaving -- something you can always count on -- raise the subject of sociopathy in some oblique way. This implies you're starting to suspect him, and in an attempt to dissuade you from your suspicions, he may actually behave, temporarily.
Alternatively, ask something along the lines of, "You never talk about your mother much. What was she like when you was growing up?" This is likely a sensitive point, and may spark a strong reaction. But it will also imply that you're at least somewhat onto him.
If you're in the mood to anger him, ask, clumsily, "Hey, what did you think of Ted Bundy?" -- as if you think he's going to blurt out, "Oh, I thought he was a great guy!" This will show him you're onto him, and you can have the satisfaction of making him bristle at your incredibly awkward attempt at psychoanalysis.
(I'm not seriously recommending the above paragraph.)
But the overall idea is to imply that you're wondering about whether he's a sociopath, without making it a statement of fact. There's a chance he'll think he can fool you into thinking that he's not one, and will be on his best behavior, at least for a while, as a result.
Other hints:
Sociopaths tend to think they're fooling people when they're not. Let your sociopath think he's fooling you when he's not. Express admiration for one of his claimed accomplishments you know is false, then get him to embroider on it. Then, once he's painted himself into a corner, you can pick it apart.
Sociopaths are particularly susceptible to flattery. Tell your sociopath he's too smart to do something you don't want him to do.
Let him think others admire him for something you want him to do; he'll likely believe it. For example, tell him that people admire him for his loyalty, and that you know he's the kind of stand up guy who'll show up to help at a certain occasion. He may be swayed.
When a sociopath is in full lying mode, tape him surreptitiously, or even videotape him. It's easy enough to do with a smartphone. Just have it ready, then hit "record" at the appropriate moment. It may be unethical, but he would do the same to you. (Of course, that's the same justification he uses to do similar things to everyone else.)
Just be ready for the sociopath's revenge; make no mistake, it will be uninhibited. But, have that smartphone handy. He probably won't be able to resist threatening you first. So get him on record making the threat.
But the best advice, as always, is simply to put as much distance as you can between yourself and him.
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42 comments:
The thing with the hidden microphone is clever but, in my experience, sociopaths just calmly shrug it off when caught lying. They don't even attempt to explain why they lied, so I'm not sure the microphone would work.
- Gethin
Gethin --
You're right, they don't feel the slightest embarrassment at all, or they just glibly lie more to cover up the first lie. The microphone is for a third party in case it comes down to your word against the sociopath's.
Ah, I understand. Yes, it's useful to have evidence for third parties.
Sociopaths have a way of tricking people into making comments about other people, which they can then twist against you. I once had a conversation that went like this:
Sociopath: "I think M drinks irresponsibly. What do you think?"
Me: [hesitantly, but not wanting to rock the boat]: "um, well, I guess he does drink more than most people do"
Behind my back, he told M that I'd called him "an alcoholic", and made it out that I'd done so spontaneously, causing a quarrel between me and M when we'd been previously amicable. I've learnt from that now: the "I think X Y. What do you think?" is bait and should be answered with "I don't know". If the sociopath then wants to turn that against you, he'll have to lie wholesale rather than twisting what you actually did say. AIUI, they find twisting easier than lying wholesale.
- Gethin
Gethin --
That's a perfect illustration of how sociopaths like to foment discord between others. I've had very similar experiences; and I've actually also had the experience where sociopaths will just lie wholesale about what I've said, though, as you point out, they prefer to just twist and take out of context and embroider.
One sociopath that I know, I've told him straight out that I blame his parents for how he turned out - their defective parenting ultimately screwed him up.
- birdie
Birdie --
How did he respond to that?
He's silent, doesn't respond. He's an eternal juvenile delinquent, outlaw. I've told him that he's a sociopath. I also told him years and years ago that I think he was put on this Earth to piss people off (said in anger, before knowing what he was). He and his kind are a thorn in my side.
- birdie
Birdie --
They're all thorns in everyone's sides.
The first sociopath I had a relationship with didn't make me fear sociopaths. He just made me feel like I was losing my mind. I spent a lot of time trying to analyze his crazy behavior in an attempt to decide if he actually was a sociopath because once I had definite confirmation that he was indeed a sociopath, I was going to end the relationship...because who wants to be in a relationship with a sociopath? I was very young, naive and way too intrigued to come to the simple conclusion that if I had concerns that he may be a sociopath, this probably wasn't going to be the guy for me. Looking back, I'd say that he definitely had signs of a personality disorder...maybe narcissistic personality disorder combined with some other issues but it didn't reach a level that brought out any true fear in me just extreme anger. Or maybe he was a sociopath and came to the conclusion that my increasing anger regarding his manipulative behavior would somehow lead me to try to get "revenge" in some way...because that is what sociopaths do...and because sociopaths believe that other people think the way they do...he may have thought that I was actually becoming a threat to him and therefore let me out of the relationship relatively easily. If that is the case, my extreme anger, which made me look like the "crazy one" at times, actually saved me.
Hannah
I once found a (I am not joking) blog by a neurodiversity proponent for sociopathy, he or she claims to be a sociopath who wants acceptance for it by society, and has claimed to share kinship for people on the autism spectrum or whatever, being their protector (which has gotten a following by some of them, some even thinking of the mass shootings as making them "dangerous" in a cool way, what a bunch of asses, and I believe others who are just insecure people, some organics of other sorts, narcissists (the fragile kind), or borderlines follow the blog too because they want to believe they are sociopaths.
So I being an idiot posted a long pedantic argumentive comment, not about morality or saying "you are such a bad person!". I was just angry at how this person had his or her own version of neurodiversity and posted a bunch of crap about it. Most of my diatribe were counterarguments thrown against each of the claims. It had hardly anything to do with sociopathy in the end, I just hated what I believed was his wrong information he posted and the smugness that he or she believed they were correct. Of course it was a waste of my energy and I could have just gone and had a soda outside.
Anyway,
One of his followers, don't know if he or she was a real sociopath or one of those weenies pretending, then tried to taunt me. So I let myself loose being as exasperating and one sided as possible on purpose, and the person stopped replying despite repeated attempts to insult me since I would also derail everything into a mess.
So maybe a person can just break all the rules when a sociopath tries to play mind games with you. Wilfrid May escaped getting shot down by the Red Baron because his piloting skills were so poor the Baron couldn't track his plane's erratic movements. You can't lose if you can't play right, so just throw out your sense or wit if all else fails. Go Johnny Bravo on them. Unless they know how to counteract that. Oh well!
-Ga
Hannah --
I had a similar experience with my first sociopath:
https://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2014/08/how-i-became-interested-in-sociopathy.html
She never sparked fear in me, only anger. By the time I was through with her, I realized how dangerous she was. And as I said at the end of that post, my guess is that there's a strong possibility she did murder someone after I knew her.
Anger does fulfill a useful social purpose at times, in terms of intimidating people. (But of course, no one knows that better than a sociopath, and no one uses that weapon more than a sociopath, which is why people often end up walking on eggshells around one.)
Glad you escaped unscathed (wiser but intact).
Ga --
Interesting, that's a new twist on how sociopaths manipulate. This guy claimed to be the "protector" of Aspies. And a lot of them fell for it, and it sounds as if they tried to emulate him, too. Aspies tend to be nerdy losers, and sociopaths are tough and cool, so that makes it an easy decision for a lot of people who aren't happy with the way they are.
That makes me wonder: are there any other types who pretend to be sociopath when they're not? I'm not talking about guys pretending to be tougher than they are, that's sort of universal. I'm talking about actually pretending to have the syndrome. If they're dealing with anybody who understands it, it would be sort of self-defeating, I would think.
Angry whiny teenagers or young adults are the biggest group, right now I can't name anymore specifics. But I used to think trolls were also them, but they found even old elderly women have been trolls, who knows? Biggest may be classic narcissists of the fragile kind who want to not feel fragile, so they take a step up and claim to be sociopaths (on their internet persona, not in real life of course) where they can be tough guys.
Maybe similar to all the people claiming now to be pansexual or omnisexual (what? so technically you are attracted to staplers and bricks too, dude?), it's a "stand alone complex".
To put it in short words: a bunch of people acting like copycats but there isn't anyone they copied, and something I would add, the fact there there is no original means they can still feel (or delude themselves) into thinking they have individuality, and this makes it easier to spread wildly than if there one person in the beginning.
We are talking about chunks of the internet, maybe thousands of people on forums at the very least(pansexual/genderqueerness for example), not a dozen people on the news.
-Ga
There is one last thing, Hitler sprang to mind when you said "pretending to have the syndrome". I don't think he literally did, but Langer said:
"In his treatment of the Jews we see the "Identification with the Aggressor" mechanism at work. He is now practicing on the Jews in reality the things he feared the victors might do to him in fantasy. From this he derives a manifold satisfaction. First, it affords him an opportunity of appearing before the world as the pitiless brute he imagines himself to be; second, it affords him an opportunity of proving to himself that he is as heartless and brutal as he wants to be (that he can really take it);"
"...there lies behind Hitler's emphasis on brutality and ruthlessness the desolation of a forced and artificual inhumanity, not the amorality of the genuine brute, which has after all something of the power of a natural force."
" He has not lost complete contact with the world about him and is striving to make some kind of psychological adjustment that will give him a feeling of security in his social group. It also means that there is a definite moral component in his character no matter how deeply it may be buried or how seriously it has been disturbed.”
Sorta similar, Hitler sorta looked like a person who is trying to be a sociopath dictator despite not having the same drive, and he ends up a mass murdering dictator even if he is not a true sociopath inside. Maybe this applies to Kim Jong Un too. But of course I doubt either literally pretend(ed) to have the named condition.
-Ga
Ga --
The internet seems to be like a bar where everybody gets drunk and their real selves come out. Anonymity is like that, it allows you to shuck your inhibitions and say whatever's on your mind. I have my name on this blog, so can't act like a drunk here. But I found that when I was talking to a robot the other day that I started saying all sorts of rude things. (I don't think I would have acted that rudely if I'd thought there was a human being at the other end.)
And yes, the power of suggestion carries a lot of sway. I sometimes wonder if the current rash of people coming out as transgenders isn't partly a function of the power of suggestion.
Ga --
I've been asked in the past if I think Hitler was a sociopath, and I've always been reluctant to say yes. It's possible that he was, but IF he was, there were a lot of parts of the puzzle that were missing. His mother evidently doted on him and adored him, which is atypical. He was a vegetarian, and loved animals, which is also atypical. And the pattern of his personal relationships didn't scream out sociopathy either. On the other hand......
But I just don't know. It's a lot easier to say someone like Josef Mengele was a sociopath. He hated his mother, who treated him poorly, he had a very hands on type of sadism which typifies sociopaths, plus he justified his sadism under the guise of scientific research; he had all the hallmarks.
I had a friend tell me once that I could write a book about my kids' dad. He literally has done crazy things. I replied that I'm not interested. Living the bizarreness was enough for me.
- birdie
Birdie --
Sociopaths tend to be "crazy like a fox" as opposed to "as crazy as a loon."
I'm assuming your ex was the former.
John - Very familiar with these types. I've been on the receiving end.
Where instructions are given to plant the evidence and document- and afterwards instructions are given that you never received these instructions.
It's just fucking nuts when they have authority and immunity.
Shaun --
And they seem to get authority and immunity more than most. Think of the Clintons. They would never have risen as far as they did if they hadn't been sociopaths. And, on a much smaller scale, there are plenty of Bill's and Hillary's around. (Though they are rarely married to each other; on that score, the Clintons were the exception.)
I think I've been pretty lucky to have not really had any personal relations with a sociopath as of yet. Then again, I'm also a withdrawn loser, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. I'm not much of a fan of most normal people as it is. A sociopath would probably drive me insane.
Alicia W. --
Count yourself lucky if you haven't tangled with a sociopath yet. (They're roughly 3 to 4% of the population, so I'm sure you've met some, even if you haven't gotten to know them well enough to recognize their character.) And sociopaths drive everyone insane.
As far as "withdrawn loser," you probably feel more alone than you really are. I've been meaning to write a post about what it's like to be somewhat of a recluse, as I've sort of become in my old age.
John-
Oh, I'm sure I have met some. Some people just kind of rub me the wrong way. I've just managed to avoid getting caught up with any so far. One guy I met did actually try to manipulate my emotions, but I didn't talk to him long enough to really concretely say whether he was a sociopath for sure or not. It wouldn't surprise me if he was one, though. I just cut off all contact immediately.
And I'd be interested to see a post about that. I was being a bit tongue in cheek when I called myself a withdrawn loser. I have some friends and people I care about. I'm just naturally fairly withdrawn, I think.
Personally, thinking about trying to slow down a sociopath using the manipulative techniques of a sociopath is like singing a song I don' know the words to. I imagine a sociopath would bury any normal person trying to compete with them. They just have more endurance and a higher tolerance for confrontation and stress.
Slightly off topic, but you kind of see it in the Right vs Left. The political left, on average and as a whole, seems to be more sociopathic than the right. They are more relentless, have less qualms, and are more vicious, cunning, and effective. The examples are innumerable in how the Right plays a weaker game than the Left. It's scary. It seems that those on the Right will eventually be forced to deal with the Left as individuals deal with sociopaths, and that is to physically try to escape them.
B
B --
That's a great characterization of Left and Right. The Left are the ones who resort to election fraud, to street violence, to shutting down the opposition whenever they want to speak on a college campus. The Right simply doesn't do those things, at least not currently.
And you're right about how sociopaths will always out sociopath a non-sociopath, but I've actually tried some of this, and have found that it does work, at least for a little while. Just by showing you're familiar with the concept you can get a sociopath to try to "prove" that he is not one. Of course, it's a weak and temporary weapon, and they will always revert to form in the long run.
I was actually going to originally title this post, "How to stop a sociopath inches tracks," then I realized how silly it would be to overstate the effectiveness of the technique. Plus, there are some sociopaths with whom it would have no effect, those who realize that their character has already been exposed. In fact, it could conceivably goad them on to even worse behavior. (I haven't seen that, though, and I have seen a couple of them subsequently at least pay lip service to doing the right thing, and make a half-hearted attempt to actually show that they are doing that, even if it's only for show.)
Alicia --
Sorry for this late reply, somehow your comment got lost there, I usually responding order of when the comments come in. That was smart to see that that guy was trying to manipulate you (though I have no idea of how subtle he was being as he tried to do that, some are more skillful than others).
Glad to hear you don't really see yourself as a withdrawn loser. (I took your comment seriously, was thinking it was going to be my duty to cheer you up.) Nothing wrong with being introverted, it usually means one is the opposite of a sociopath. (Sociopaths are incapable of a calm, reflective, quiet solitude; they have to be active, out and about actively screwing people over.)
John-
He wasn't being very subtle about it, which is why I noticed so quickly. He actively used my more sympathetic side against me to make himself laugh, and then when I got pissed about it he made it sound like I was the irrational one. If he was a sociopath, he was easily one of the most unsubtle ones.
And don't worry, I wouldn't force a guy I hardly know on the internet to cheer me up. And I do agree there. Sociopaths always seem to need some kind of thrill. I find it offputting. I do get bored, but I need my down time. Funny thing is, for a brief time I was actually bit concerned I might be a sociopath because I felt like my emotions were too shallow and that I was too disconnected from people. It then occurred to me that if I was worried I was a sociopath, I probably was not one.
Alicia W. --
Aha, he was trying to gaslight you. And not successfully, I'm happy to hear. Sociopaths, like the rest of us, come in a full range of IQ's, it's the smarter ones you have to be more wary of, even though they're all dangerous in different ways.
I wouldn't have felt "forced" to cheer you up, but that comment about being a "withdrawn loser" did spark my sympathy a tiny bit (my emotions are usually quite shallow as well)....You're exactly right, people who worry that they might be sociopaths generally aren't. A sociopath's attitude is far more likely to be: "They're saying I'm a sociopath? So what? It just means they're jealous because I'm mentally stronger than they are. Hey, there are two kinds of people in the world -- sheep and wolves. I'm no sheep, I'll tell you that right now."
I think Hitler was a learned sociopath like Kim Jong Un, in both cases it's forced.
With Kim, to prove to himself he is like his father, with Hitler, well, Langer gives a long explanation on his early life and his desire, it may also explain Hitler's hostility to communism.
He emulates the brutality of his hated foe Stalin to appear strong enough to be taken seriously. Stalin is just a sociopath (or sorta a sociopath lite, there were many events where he felt anxiety and paranoia, or feared for his life in panic, not very psychopathic. So sociopathy may come in degrees). Langer's quote on identifying with the agressor applies here.
Langer also said weirldy that the man Hitler feared the most was Roosevelt (dunno if that was pro-american propaganda in his work) because he cannot comprehend how a person could control an entire country without being a brutish tyrant like Stalin or a strongman like Churchill, but just a regular person.
You should read the OSS report on hitler on nizkor, it's online for free, it's really weird at times and full of dated Freudian psychology like Hitler didn't properly pass the genital stage of childhood and prevents himself in adulthood with an induced fear of STDs, Hitler is a neurotic hysteric with paranoid histrionic tendencies and occupies a middle ground between sanity and insanity whose anti-social behaviour is forced and fueled by neuroticism and sexual abnormality, rather than true brutality from sociopathy.
-Ga
Young and naive, the perfect victim of a sociopath. They don't need the young though, they just need the naive. My experience with them is they will go to great lengths of manipulation, fear mongering, control and whatever else to keep that relationship together so they have that control over the person. Congrats on making an "easy" exit.
Here's another one to keep an eye on, a coach who perhaps not coincidentally was hired by Julie Hermann, herself the subject of a previous Sociopath Alert: http://www.nj.com/rutgersfootball/index.ssf/2017/11/rutgers_fires_swimming_coach_accused_of_mike_rice.html#incart_river_index
John -
Personally I don't have any sociopaths around me, in circles of acquaintances or other (as far as I know). But I do come across them while working. The latest one is a young (about 25) white supremacist. Actually I met his girlfriend who was pregnant with his child. She had known him for about a month or two. Also young and naive, she didn't listen to her father's warnings about the guy. With only a minimal amount of knowledge of the guy I was able to tell her how he treats her, speaks to her, etc, and she was amazed I was correct on everything. I explained her immediate exit from the relationship is paramount and that he may try to get her back by threats, intimidation and other manipulations. Once he finds a new victim he'd leave her alone. Wishful thinking because she's pregnant. Not that he cares about the baby but he'll use that to keep tormenting her.
She moved in with her parents who live in a different jurisdiction so I most likely won't have contact with them again but the sociopath does live in my jurisdiction so the probability of me meeting him is better. Alas I only have two more months working that area of the county until I change districts so maybe not.
About 8 years ago or so I picked up a book titled Without Conscious by Robert D. Hare, PhD. Until that point I didn't know much about psychopaths or sociopaths and wanted to learn more. Gaining the understanding of how those people work has helped me on a few occasions with my job. They're definitely the type of people that have more than average contact with law enforcement along with people that display traits of being antisocial but may not be wholesale. Juveniles with Conduct Disorder are frequent customers and seem to be on the rise. I blame millennial parents but I know they're not always at fault.
I had thought that maybe sociopaths don't know they're sociopaths and don't care when told. They're very high on themselves, thinking there's nothing wrong with them (it's everyone else that has problems/issues). Maybe some know, the more intelligent ones that have been genuinely diagnosed. For the most part you just have to beat them at their game. They are pretty shallow and once you crack the surface their charade is more easily crumbled.
Not Dave --
Law enforcement personnel are basically forced to be realists, especially on matters of sociopathy. I wish that 25-year-old woman luck, but I'm afraid her baby will tie her to the sociopath forever. He'll probably go to court to obtain some sort of visitation rights, and the court will grant him something, even if it's far less than joint custody, and as a result she'll have to see him during all of the handoffs, and he'll make her life as miserable as he can.
Yes, Without Conscience is one of the classics in the field, and Hare was maybe the most prominent early researchers. He visited jails early on and really got to know some of the inmates, well enough to see what they were about.
And yes, LEO's are going to have a lot more contact with sociopaths than most of us have.
Some of the younger sociopaths haven't been diagnosed yet, but if they're smart, I think by the time they reach their mid-20's or so they know what they are. And from an earlier age than that, they know they're different, even though they think of that difference as being stronger, or tougher, or braver, or smarter, or slyer, or more realistic about human nature, or something else positive (in their mind).
Alter Ego --
Thank you for that, that was quite a revealing article. I'd read a shorter version of her firing on a swimming website last night and thought of Hermann. Interestingly, there were a bunch of comments after the article, including several which defended her, and I wondered if those came from Martin herself. But the article you sent leaves no doubt about who was at fault.
I've always thought of coaching as sort of an a-hole magnet, for narcissistic personalities who can't get along with people their own age. But at times it can be a sociopath magnet too. It's an opportunity to bully young people who have no real way of fighting back.
now we can do some good chit-chat
"If they're dealing with anybody who understands it, it would be sort of self-defeating, I would think."
it IS sorta self-defeating, and YOU WOULD think that (being as you NICE MISTER CRAIG aren't a sociopath)...but, the sociopath doesn't think that is worth worrying, forgetaboutit, that's like stooping to pick up a penny and then you have to tuck your shirts back in
a couple data points...I think it's in Hervey Cleckley (his book "THE MASK OF SANITY" is the best and almost the only good work on psychopaths IN MY VIEW although I guess it's about 80 years old now, as an actual psychopath myself I ENDORSE IT FIRMLY, and the writing is really beautiful in many passages)
anyway I think Hervey says that psychopaths already tend to know what psychopaths are, and that they is one...this is ONE OF THE SIGNS of being a psychopath, although it did not make Hervey's final checklist in those terms explicitly
another related sign, is that, IF A NORMAL PERSON were to seriously self-diagnose as a psychopath and had the insight and knowledge of the world to recognize that being a psychopath DEFINITELY CONTAINS a dark, crippling, harsh and implacable difference, distance, and separation from the rest of the humans...the normal person understanding themselves as being in such a situation would be very upset and depressed about it...but (Hervey says and I agree) psychopaths are not bothered by this, it is as if they understand intellectually but there is no emotional juice in their response...it's a "no big deal" and again ONE OF THE SIGNS of the vast difference between psychopaths and the other humans
these two known points together (they self-identify as psychopaths, and, their emotional response to being psychopaths is tiny and deadened, compared to normies) go some distance toward explaining why the psychopath would TELL ON THEMSELVES casually in passing comments online, though it appears slightly as an admission contrary to self-interest...a psychopath will think of their past escapes from consequences for endless bad behavior and WITH SOME COMPLACENCY think "I got away with all that just fine, I am confident I will be able to play off/finesse-away any difficulties that might arise from saying 'I'm a psychopath,' in this new context, too, should the need arise."
(I think psychopaths usually in idle style conversation gravitate toward "living dangerously" and also lack normal felt concern for reputation, or the ordinary good regard of decent people for civilized behavior, why act right when interfacing with far-away useless randoms, "they don't pay my rent," so...)
Also, as a psychopath, I had a reaction to where you DEAR MISTER CRAIG used the words "tough and cool"...it's a little different from the inside...when you are a psychopath, in life, you are NOT GOING TO DO VERY WELL in the long term, you can get lots of material wealth but you DO quite LACK the best temperament for keeping it...it's not a recipe for success even though you can work unscrupulous miracles... rather it's like being a werewolf, you are never going to grow old in a nice house full of 12th century Chinese porcelains because you will wake up one night of the full moon in wolf form and smash them all
for example I think I have been through ten jobs already this year...that's very psychopath-like, I am charming enough to get hired... but then...
====GUINEA HENWEED
GUINEA HENWEED --
Yes, Cleckley's book was the first on the subject, and he is widely regarded as the "father" of the field. (I'm embarrassed to say that I haven't read it.)
And yes, you're essentially agreeing with what Alicia W. said, about how she used to worry that she might be a sociopath, but then realized that the fact she was worrying about it indicated that she wasn't one. Sociopaths simply don't care, and to the extent they do, their basic feeling is, it makes them superior/stronger mentally.
I think it was Cleckley who said that they "carry disaster lightly in both hands." (I have seen excerpts.)
I agree that they like to live dangerously, are both attracted to risk, and think they are immune to it. As you say, they feel that because they've escaped consequences in the past, they will in the future, too. And because they've fooled people in the past, they think they can continue to do so, even when they aren't.
As far as holding onto the money, you're right there too. I've said elsewhere that sociopaths will often soar high, but will just as frequently crash. It's sort of as if they get over confident and thus grow sloppy. And the fearlessness they have can often do them in too, a certain amount of fear is healthy.
But you've just described Bernie Madoff and every other Ponzi Schemer who ever lived. Soar high, live large, and come crashing back to earth.
Ten jobs?? Yikes. I guess there's no point in telling you to straighten up. You'd scoff.....
please please please read it, MISTER CRAIG
"The Mask of Sanity" is so beautiful, it is seriously a major treat, you will laugh out loud at Hervey's sly droll rolling sentences, describing the benighted activities of his psychopath patients DROWNING GOATS IN A MILLPOND or letting bourbon-scented salesmen take their virginity or whatever
(seriously, I lend this book to college girls AND THEY LOVE IT, it's nothing like a chore...I been talking about THE MASK OF SANITY with this one girl, nice Vassar alumna, for maybe seven or ten years now, it is total High Culture hiding in the utilitarian medical textbook genre...fun fun fun, so brilliant...ALTHOUGH I DO RECOMMEND that you skip over the five or so prefaces, (one per edition), and introductions, and go straight to the individual case studies of patients, sections labelled like "Max" and "Tom"...the whole rest of the book is good too but, the case studies will hook you and you will want to finish every bit of it...HERVEY CLECKLEY was a GREAT MAN)
I would buy you a copy and send it to you, or otherwise try to induce you with cash or services, but, you are impervious to such blandishments, I have seen...please please please please, MISTER CRAIG, you will have long periods of untrammelled happiness reading that book
(okay, I am done wheedling and whining, heehee, sorry)
oh look here it is for free online:
http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/sanity_1.pdf
again, scroll down to page 45 (in the PDF pagination but it's page 29 on the book pages) to where it says:
"SECTION TWO --- THE MATERIAL
PART 1 -- The disorder in full clinical manifestation
5. Max"
====GUINEA HENWEED
GUINEA HENWEED --
Thank you for the link to the book, I'll take a look, it's always been on my list. It IS the seminal book in the field, so I really should read it.
Just out of curiosity, have you told this nice Vassar alumna that you yourself are one of the people Cleckley is describing?
oh yeah, I told her I was a psychopath well before presenting the book
we used to read all through the DSM-4 as well, discussing the extended friend group...one of her ex-boyfriends is also my friend, and he really truly has the HISTRIONIC PERSONALITY DISORDER (which is now going out of fashion)...we would laugh and howl at how much Mutual Friend resembled the checklist and the description...he is a sweet guy, well-meaning, harmless, gently-raised by rich people, trustworthy enough as people go (i.e., semi-unreliable but not malicious) but he has a very vivid imagination and doesn't even know he is telling stuff that people doubt...for example, he says that when he dreams, he astrally-projects, and that he can choose to fly over and visit anyone if he wants...I don't think he is quite right about that, even people who write books about astral-projection say it's not as easy as he describes it
====GUINEA HENWEED
GUINEA HENWEED --
I haven't known many histrionics in my life, but I get the impression that a lot of them join the ranks of the hard Left these days. I suspect a lot of the antifa crowd (especially when you look at their need for attention), along with some of those who reacted most hysterically to Trump's election, are histrionics.
But astral projection? Yikes. That almost sounds like schizophrenia.
I'm curious as to what the you think.I value your opinion. Have you ever seem someone "stand out" more than others? They weren't necessarily good looking, but they seemed to "glow" or radiate in some inexplicable way. These people, for some reason, intrigue you; you're compelled to stare for longer than is socially appropriate. What is it these people possess? Charisma? But what exactly IS charisma?
RoseKidd
Rose Kidd --
Charisma is an overused term that seems to get applied to more athletes, politicians, and actors than deserve it (and actor who appears charismatic onscreen can often come across the opposite in real life). But sure, some people have an aura about them that goes beyond their looks. Sometimes it's a personality that's larger than life (appropriate for you to be asking this question after a post about sociopathy). Sometimes it's a function of fame: if you've seen a lot of photographs of a person before you've ever seen them in person, seeing them person can seem electrifying. Sometimes it's just one character trait that somehow stands out: maybe a certain ferocity, or a calm, watchful intelligence that makes them seem special. Or something else. The fun thing is figuring out exactly what it is afterwards that causes your reaction, though without seeing the person you're referring to (I assume you had this experience recently) I can't analyze him or her.
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