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Thursday, August 18, 2011

Aspergers Syndrome

Aspergers Syndrome -- the name for the mildest of the autism spectrum of disorders -- may be overdiagnosed these days. (Children with Aspergers are given extra time in school to finish their tests, and some parents will do anything to give their child a leg up.) But that doesn't mean the syndrome doesn't exist. This post will describe some of the symptoms. If you know people who exhibit these symptoms, understanding Aspergers will help you understand them.

The trait mostly widely associated with various sorts of autism is an inability to read other people. I don't know how -- or why -- the brain would get rewired so that someone becomes incapable of interpreting others' actions, but people with Aspergers have little insight into others. If you know someone who seems to have no clue about how others think, this could means Aspergers.

In my experience, people with Aspergers try to compensate by acting as if they know things they don't, especially about people. And they try to act as if they are in on the joke. When they see everyone else laugh, they will laugh along to show that they too are in on the humor.

This is what people with Aspergers generally do: try to pass as normal. But no one can keep such an act up forever, and when you get to really know them, their autism is unmistakable.

An autistic's inability to predict other party's feelings, thoughts, or reactions will result in frequent social faux pas. I knew one guy with Aspergers who worked in an office. When he would make an awkward attempt at a joke, his polite assistants would smile. The others would look away. The word people with  Aspergers often get labeled with is lame. This often applies to their senses of humor, their excuses, and their personalities.

People with Aspergers tend to be somewhat asocial. They are uncomfortable at parties, and often become panicky in social situations. They rarely keep in touch with others over the long term. And most of their "friendships" are often institutionally based.

The traits most commonly associated with Aspergers are lack of insight and being asocial, but there are a host of other symptoms that go hand in hand with these. People with Aspergers hate having their routines disrupted. If you ask them something, they will respond by saying things like, "Uh, your timing is off!" or, "I'm doing something!"

They have a hard time dealing with criticism. They are similar to narcissistic personalities in that any criticism immediately fills them with rage. You can give them the gentlest, most constructive criticism, and they might respond by screaming, "Who are you to be telling me that I'm doing it wrong?!" And, as with narcissists, every time an Aspie errs, it's always somebody else's fault.

Or they may simply deny their errors. If an Aspie says something like, "Uh, you know, there was more freedom in the Soviet Union than there is in the US," and you point out why that statement is misguided, they may later simply deny ever having said it. I've seen Aspies deny having said something within a minute of having said it. Most people would be embarrassed to do this; but Aspies simply stonewall, sometimes without even realizing what they're doing.

And because autistics can never admit they're wrong, you will almost never hear them apologize.

People with Aspergers have a hard time identifying with other groups. A woman with Aspergers, for instance, might always stick up for women over men, no matter the circumstance, simply because she is a woman. Ironically, this is often the same type of woman who accuses men of being sexist. This might appear garden variety hypocrisy. But when it's exhibited by an Aspie, it is simply an outgrowth of their complete inability to see things from another point of view. (Which, when you think of it, is also not that dissimilar from ordinary narcissism.)

I knew one such woman with Aspergers who would scathingly refer to men as "pricks," but if anyone ever used the word "bitch," she would huff, "Uh, you know, that's a really gender-loaded word," or alternatively -- and awkwardly -- "You're insulting my sex!"

People with Aspergers are more likely to throw back accusations at the accuser, no matter how ridiculous that makes them sound. For instance, if Mike Tyson were to say, "You're a wimpy little white boy," an Aspie might respond, "No, you're a wimpy little white boy." (That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.) A better example might be, if they're told they have Aspergers, they then tell the accuser that he has Aspergers, even if he has no symptoms.

People with Aspergers will often develop a reputation for having no common sense. (By definition, they also don't have enough common sense to realize that they have no common sense.)

They tend to have poor fine motor coordination. So they won't be good at things like typing, or dipping a knife into a honey jar and then twirling the knife so that the honey doesn't drip down the side of the jar. They are also more likely to get into minor fender benders.

They are rigid in their thinking, to the point where they must ignore facts. They generally only willingly expose themselves to one viewpoint. If you quote a fact which conflicts with their viewpoint, they may respond by saying something along the lines of, "Uh, what's your source on that?" or "You know, one person's reality is another person's fiction." Sources can certainly err, and some fields do involve perception. But an Aspie will hide behind statements like these all the time, even when a source is unimpeachable and a fact has no subjective element.

It was probably someone with Aspergers who inspired the saying, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own set of facts."

People with Aspergers tend to be germ phobic, and have other symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder.

They dislike bright lights and loud noises more than most.

They have a tendency to mangle words (e.g., "buxmous" rather than "buxom" and "insiduous" rather than "insidious").

People with Aspergers often have an intense focus on one interest; they may be fascinated by something like trains, or buses. Those people you read about who are fascinated by trains and who will pretend to be conductors just so they can take them for joyrides are usually autistic (They usually have a more serious form of autism than just Aspergers.) Likewise, every now and then you'll read about someone who just takes a city bus out for a spin. These people don't have evil intentions: they don't want to hurt anybody, or actually steal the bus. They are simply completely and utterly fascinated by the big moving vehicles.

As a result of their narrow focus, Aspies frequently use non sequiturs. No matter the subject being discussed, they will just start talking about whatever their interest is.

People with Aspergers tend to be very literal. For instance, they may think that sailfish just swim around on the surface of the ocean, getting propulsion from their giant dorsal fins via the wind. Because, after all, they are sailfish. When someone uses a metaphor, they may take it literally. (This is partly why they tend not to get jokes.)

Because all of these traits can obviously result in an inability to get along with others, people with Aspergers often prefer the company of animals to humans. (Pets never disagree with them, or criticize them, or laugh at them. And their pets need them, and give them uncritical love.) 

John Lucas and Scott Moore, who wrote the script for The Hangover, understood autistics perfectly. The Zach Galafianakis character is the brother of the girl that the Justin Bartha character is going to marry. At the beginning of the movie she thanks Justin for bringing her brother to Las Vegas with him for his bachelor party, and he reflexively replies, no problem, Zach is cool. The girl says no, Zach is not cool. We see little hints of Zach's personality early on. He says things that don't quite make sense. At one point, as they check into Caesar's Palace, he asks if Caesar slept there. The others look at each other, then ignore the comment and move on. Zach gradually grows more and more annoying with his malapropisms and inappropriate reactions and insistence that he is right, to the point of being infuriating. In the movie, he eventually he redeems himself by counting cards, the type of thing an autistic is more likely to be able to do, and after their adventure everybody ends up friends. (In real life, the other three would have put some distance between themselves and Zach as soon as it was decently possible to do so.)

Lucas and Moore had to have known someone who was autistic in their lives; the Galafianakis character was just too well drawn to for them not to have personal familiarity with the syndrome. Bear in mind, not all people with Aspergers look like Zach Galafianakis. Some can be beautiful women, whose beauty may initially blind you to their lameness. The interesting thing, as with any syndrome, is to see all the little behaviors that betray that syndrome.

Galafianakis pretty much reprised that role in Due Date, a buddy movie he made with Robert Downey. There he showed the same exasperating inappropriate behavior, lack of common sense, and all-around cluelessness, this time employed in the service of driving Downey to distraction.

Autistics are far more likely to join a cult, or become immersed in a system of thinking which becomes a substitute for any personal sense of judgment. They feel far more comfortable when they can view everything from the perspective of a rigid ideology. They are more likely to join the military, with its rigid hierarchy and rules. Or they may become immersed in an all-consuming religion, perhaps one with rigid and restrictive rules regarding every aspect of personal behavior -- and which disapproves strongly of nonbelievers. Or they subscribe with an almost religious zeal to a particular school of thought like Marxism. All of these ideologies, or systems, or structures, are a substitute for having to think on their own.

Aspies are not bad people; they're not sociopaths. We should never hold anyone responsible for anything beyond their control; and nobody chose to have Aspergers. But if you have constant exposure to them, or are responsible for them in any way, they are inevitably infuriating. If you've been around one for any length of time, the phrase "willfully obtuse" will undoubtedly come to mind. Most people you can talk some sense into, but people with Aspergers are so rigid in their thinking there's never any budging them.

In any loosely knit social group, you'll see that people tend to gravitate away from those with the syndrome. People with Aspergers may be stiffly polite (what they think of as "social skills"), since the give and take of normal banter is beyond them. If you know someone who seems to make a great effort to remember all the social niceties, but does so in somewhat robotic fashion, think Aspergers. If that person seems lost if he has to go off-script, you can be surer of that diagnosis.

One of the problems with Aspergers is that it is impossible to self-diagnose. Sociopaths, when they get older, generally come to the realization that they're sociopaths. Neurotics certainly know they're neurotic, depressives know they're depressed, and everybody is aware of their own sexual peculiarities. But if you're clueless about human nature, how can you possibly realize that others are not equally so?

One thing people with Aspergers do have in common with normal people is that the accusations they level most frequently often reflect their own weaknesses. They'll say things along the lines of, "You're so far out of it you don't even realize you're out of it." Or, "You just don't get it, do you?" Or they'll call someone a jackass.

All perfect descriptions of Aspergers Syndrome.

Addendum, 3/11/13: If you found this post via Google, you might find this post on whether or not Aspies are responsible for their own behavior interesting. Or this one, on whether Aspies span the full range of morality.

Addendum, 1/7/14: As you can see below, this post has attracted a slew of comments. A few are from people who've dealt with Aspies and who agree with me, but most are from outraged Aspies -- or their relatives -- who can't believe how insensitive I am. They are welcome to use this forum the same way I sometimes do -- to vent. I will post their comments. But I don't have the energy or inclination to respond to all of them, especially since I've long since found myself saying the same things over and over. So please feel free to tell me what a horrible person I am; just don't expect a response. 

703 comments:

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Jessica said...

I have Aspergers but I say sorry to people when I think I'm wrong and because I have self esteem issues I think I'm wrong an awful lot. I might have outbursts and alittle too much pride but I know I'm vulnerable to these thing and try to check myself.

When it comes to keeping in contact with people I'm guilty as charged but I've found that over time I've gotten better and better at it.

Same with comebacks though honestly in my case lazy comebacks comes more from laziness or being too angry to bother thinking of some cohesive reply. I can be rigid but like with all my other faults I try to keep this in check.

I guess what I'm really saying is that those problems you listed aren't actually set in stone many people with aspergers can and do try to unlearn them once they become aware that they have such tendencies.

Of course many others don't bother or never realize they could be doing something better but I'd say that's true for everyone.

It's hard not to be somewhat hurt by the blunt delivery of all these symptoms but I guess I'll treat it as karma for all my awkwardness in primary school and suck it up.

John Craig said...

Jessica --
You have a great attitude; other people with Aspergers could learn from you.

Jessica said...

John Craig--

Eh, while I appreciate the praise, I'd say that I'm no different from most people who have already posted even the really angry ones or the "normal" ones with friends that annoy or diappoint or scare them. But I've long since accepted that the only person I can change is myself and I think that might be the only real difference.

John Craig said...

Jessica --
I'd say you are different, not only because you're self-aware, but just because you were able to say what you did in your comment as well.

Taylor said...

EXACTLY what I was going to write, until I just saw you already did. You are right on point with this.

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry, but I'm going to comment and leave, but I'm NOT going to argue with anyone. Your post was 100% correct with an Aspie I inadvertently made a comment that was against their ideology this week in a discussion. The only thing that he did different was attack me with "bottom feeder" and other various vulgar words. Then tried to accuse me of being the one cursing him!!! THANK YOU!! I recognized it and asked him if he was an Aspie because his responses to my comments were so grossly venomous and personal attacks that really had nothing to do with my comments (only that I was an idiot and a retard and curse words) because my opinion was the opposite of his. He didn't like that! Had to be right to the point of being viscious! Said he couldn't take me seriously because I had accidentally misspelled a word, when he had misspelled TWO in the post before my response!!!

Anonymous said...

Yes, you are somewhat correct, but your context is not. Basically, yes, aspergers can be obtuse. Seemingly unempathetic..aloof, etc.. Where you are unfortunately ill inclined is in Your empathy levels as a 'normal' person. Unfortunately, because you cannot fathom where the aspie is coming from internally, and certainly cannot fathom them coming from any place of empathy, that tells me you have very little of it and as a 'normal' person, this tells me you might indeed suffer from Narcissism. Unfortunately, having that, perhaps, you would not care at all. As an aspie woman, I tell you, I have loads of empathy. I find NT folks without it largely, hence my anger and frustration at them. Folks who pass as normal largely look down on others, lets face it, its a national pastime. This bullying is often detected by myself, but, being aspie, I have little verbal defense. I am like a deer in the headlights. Fortunately, I am very intelligent so when I do identify bullying, I can be ones worst nightmare, undercover, of course, and legally. Folks don't expect me to realize their infraction. Through much research and experience, I am getting better. My struggle though, continues to be largely with unempathetic, ill informed assholes like yourself who enjoy putting others below you. You are, indeed, a pathetic idiot.

John Craig said...

Aspie Woman --
Sounds to me as if you're doing exactly what you're accusing me of.

Anonymous said...

Fucking THANK YOU to the author of this blog and post.

I'm sure all that I could say has been said multiple times. But thank you. Seriously. This described to a 'T' the more revolting behaviours that I've witness from some aspies that I've met:

Guilty of projecting the worst of their own behaviours/accusations onto others.
Complete lack of cognitive self-awareness
Narcissism/Complete self-absorption/imperviousness to reality outside their own
heads/revolting ego-centric childishness/Lack of consideration or empathy for others.

Your post actually made me feel sane after trying to deal with some aspies that I've met. For a brief time I was unsure of myself and felt like I was going fucking crazy dealing with them. But at least this made me aware that I'm not alone, and that these socially inept borderline psychopaths try to make up for their lack of awareness by severely compensating for their insecurities with hot air and aggression, ultimately making them lose all their friends in the process. Good fucking riddance to these soul-sucking monsters. And the best part is, it's -never- their fault that no one likes them! LOL. It'd be so cute if they weren't so pathetically insufferable.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank YOU. But for the first time ever, I'm actually going to try to pull someone (you) back just a bit from your criticism of Aspies. Everything you said was pretty much true (I've noticed that projection too), and I find them infuriating to deal with too, but we have to remember, they're not evil. And they're actually not borderline sociopaths, in fact in their inability to sway people they're almost the opposite of sociopaths, who ARE truly evil (as I describe many times in this blog). Aspies can't help but be what they are, and while they exhibit some of the same behaviors as narcissists (everything is someone else's fault, won't say they're sorry, will never admit they're wrong), it's coming from a different place than garden variety narcissists come from.

Anyway, thank you, and whatever you do, don't let yourself be gaslighted by them. You're sane, and in many ways, they are not. But they're not evil, either. It's more as if they're just socially retarded.

Hey lady said...

Thank you John for the corrections you made to the ANON who compaired
an autistic person to a psychopath/sociopath. Any traits an autistic or non-Autisitc person has that
Are intentionally cruel are personality flaws or co-morbid mental illness and not the autism itself.
You can be a "jerk" with or without autism (autism is a neurological disorder not a personality trait even if some personality
Traits have become stereotypes) and yes; it's the opposite of a sociopath. To understand better;
both a sociopath and autistic have issues with empathy but a sociopath lacks compassion and is highly intelligent in cognitive empathy aka reading others; that's how they manipulate,etc.Their lack of remorse comes from low aspect empathy/compassion. Many Autisitc people have high compassion but a low intelligence in "cognitive empathy" (aka the non emotional side of empathy; reading others) They are Capable of love and emotions and feel extreme guilt for their shortcomings and feel remorse; IF you are a good communicator and get an Autisitc person to understand they have done wrong or give them time to think on it and process they are more likely to see what they did wrong. Clear blunt communication can go a long way with dealing with an autistic person as once they see
they have hurt you; they will have compassion and try what is in or ability to make amends. Some austics like myself are the opposite of "not apologizing" and appease TOO much; constantly anxious about preventing hurt towards others. . Unfortunately in order to be good with people and socializing you can't just feel for others and be kind; you must be skilled in empathy as a whole system to prolly slice a problem or communicate diplomatically. BUT social skills can be taught so don't give up hope. :-) and Autisitc people though a little socially clueless can be VERY sweet and enduring individuals.

Leanne Strong said...

You mentioned rigid thinking. I have Asperger Syndrome, and I'd say that I do have a little bit of that rigid thinking thing. I'd like to add that our rigid ways of thinking also makes it harder for us to know when learned rules and codes of behavior don't need to be followed. For us, something is either always right or always wrong. Either it's always this or it's always that, with nothing (or very little) in between. If you're always on the ball to make sure we're being fair, and you let us know every time we're not being fair (usually when someone gets more or less), we might have a harder time understanding that not everything is always fair, and that fairness doesn't always mean everyone gets treated exactly the same. Because of this, we might say, "that's not fair," if someone gets more or less. This is not because we think everyone needs or deserves the same thing, it's because we have learned that things must always be fair, and that fairness means everyone gets the exact same thing.

My brother, on the other hand (2 years younger than me and doesn't have any disabilities), didn't seem to make a big fuss if someone said, "I WANT MORE POPCORN," instead of, "can I have some more popcorn, please." He just seemed like, "well, as long as nobody's doing anything dangerous or making anybody too uncomfortable, it's acceptable."

That might also have a little to do with the fact that I was the oldest child in my family. Oldest children are stereotypically (but not always) fussier about other people's behavior than those of us who have older siblings.

It might also have to do with the fact that I'm a lady and my brother is a guy. Girls in general (but not always) are fussier about other people's behavior than guys are.

I think a lot of kids' attitudes toward misbehavior might mirror those of their parents/guardians. If parents/guardians reprimand or correct their child(ren) for even the slightest misbehavior (and they often do this with the oldest child and with daughters), chances are that the child(ren) will learn to reprimand or correct other people. If parents are more like, "well, as long as it's not sacrificing anybody's safety or comfort, anything will fly," chances are that will be how the child(ren) views other people's behavior.

Anonymous said...

No offence to the OP, but given the lack of tact you have shown, maybe you should take a test yourself. And a sociopath is almost the opposite of an autistic by the way. The neuropathology is massively different.

Autistics have empathy, they just aren't good at reading people, which is why when they realize they have hurt someone, most are devastated more than any NT would be.

Sociopaths can fake it, but don't have it at all, hence their use of glib superficial charm to manipulate people expertly.

A sociopath or psychopath is night to the autistics day, and isn't it fascinating how much NT's often love "players" and "rogues", the ones most likely to be a sociopath...

Yes I am an Asperger. I am also a fervent antimysogynist, an advocate for strong child protection, and someone who has loved people profoundly deeply, and they knew it too, because we ARE deeply emotional people. NT's don't see it often because they don't see the subtle signs...Still waters.

Anonymous said...

Autistics don't enjoy hurting people. We do enjoy being right, at times, which can be annoying. If you experienced someone enjoy causing suffering who claims they are an aspie, I think they are more likely a misdiagnosed sociopath.

We HAVE empathy, we just don't read people well. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Try TELLING them what their behavior has made you feel(when you can get a word in, admittedly, LOL). Most aspies will definitely feel bad about it.

We can be A***holes as much as everyone else, but I don't believe we are worse. You just don't get us that well. Not necessarily your fault, either.

Jane said...

You describe the person I've been dealing with for the past few decades to a T. I am his sole support in every possible way and yet he blames me for all his problems and demands monetary compensation from me even though I am supporting him financially. The saddest thing is that he cannot see how illogical his thinking is even though he is brilliant in other things.

John Craig said...

Jane --
That does sound familiar. Generally Aspies can only see things from their point of view, and never seem to be able to put themselves in others' shoes. There are a few exceptions, some of the Aspies who've written in here have sounded quite reasonable. But the majority are extremely difficult to deal with on a long term basis.

Anonymous said...

Have enjoyed reading all this as I'm currently coming to the end of a horrible experience with what I suspect is an Aspergers colleague. One thing that stands out for me is the hypocrisy. This guy insists (actually insists) that I preface everything with context and communicate clearly if I wish to speak to him at all. Despite my best efforts on this front, nothing seems good enough as I am continuously met with pained expressions, cut off mid sentence, shooshed like a five year old and generally have to walk on egg shells in order to communicate.

At the same time, I am expected to listen to his confused ramblings and immediately interpret anything this guy has to tell me. I'm spoken at, never with or to. After only five months, I've called it quits on this one. There is a lot more to this story but as far as I can tell, I was largely about control for this guy. He wanted nothing to do with me, yet didn't like it when I started showing initiative or confidence in what I was doing. Never a supportive word or action, only put downs. Lots of child like laughter, and mannerisms. One day I decided I'd had enough and called him out and took it to the boss. He almost shit himself, as again it was a loss of control for him. His behavior improved immediately, but nevertheless he continued to play the victim card.

When I told my boss she was very understanding, having hoped that things would work out. She knew about this guy and his 'querky' attributes but the catch is he's a very talented programmer so at this stage not someone she can afford to lose. At least I'll leave with a positive reference and my successor (god be with them) will hopefully have it easier as this guy is now on thin ice.

John Craig said...

Anon --
That's a great description of how an Aspie can act. They're not all quite that unreasonable; recently I've had some quite reasonable ones write comments here. They recognize that they have a problem, and try to overcome it or compensate for it.

But yes, I recognize a lot of the behaviors you describe. The constant talking at you, the shushing, the constant need to be in control, and the hypocrisy. And you came to the right conclusion, he does have Aspergers.

I've never heard of an Aspie who insists on being given context when he's spoken to before, though, and now that I think about it, that surprises me, because in a sense that's what they all need, as they otherwise might not "get" what you're saying.

Adrian said...

OK, here I go throwing my rusty two cents into this fountain. But first, props to the author for allowing all of these negative anonymous comments. He can take a barrage of negative energy like a man, which cannot be said for everyone dishing it.

I think the accuracy of the article would be immensely improved with a simple change, namely by reframing the enumerated descriptions of Asperger’s as merely the dark side of the condition, rather than its totality. Also, the notion that aspies cannot self-diagnose is factually inaccurate.

I myself was born with it, and arguably a moderately high amount of it. Having cohabitated with a family member who also has it, I recognize these characteristics all too well, in myself too. I have caused untold misery, for myself and for others. I have dwelt in despair and agony for years. I had acquiesced to the unfairness of it all, feeling like I was always tuned to a different frequency, not understanding what’s happening, and generally behaving in the ways this article describes.
But I’ve also overcome it to a large degree, by embarking on a journey of self-knowledge and spirituality. I have become much more attuned to the interconnectedness of life, and having seen the pitfalls in others (both with this condition and otherwise), has also helped shed light on my own shortcomings. Then, through perseverance of will, I started to change myself.

Yes, most of us are social retards. But why not laugh at that, man up, and learn coping skills? It’s hard work, and a lot of people (not just aspies) would rather play into the victim mentality. The moment you start succeeding, you get excluded from “the tribe”, and accused of being a phony. “You couldn’t possibly understand what it’s like for ME.” How do I know this? I’ve lived in that place for about three decades, so I know the psychology that drives it, which is why I also know it’s futile to try to convince anyone that their destiny is in their hands (while certainly admitting that the road to freedom is long and very difficult). So what I suggest to anyone who has an impulse to lash out at the author of this article is to instead start looking for ways to improve yourself – start seeking out creative ways to express yourself, to better the world, to increase awareness and joy. No, it’s not easy. But you CAN do it.

John Craig said...

Adrian --
Thank you for that thoughtful and measured comment. For some reason almost all of the Aspies who originally commented on this post basically just lashed out at me, and told me what a horrible person I am. Yet most of the recent commenters who've been Aspies have come across far more thoughtful and balanced.

Anyway, yes, you're right, my description of Aspergers is quite negative; when I originally wrote it, I was thinking that it would help identify people with Aspergers to those who were unaware that they were dealing with an Aspie. I suppose if I'd known more Aspies like you, the post itself would have been more balanced.

And that was a nice pep talk you gave there, by the way.

Anonymous said...

Good lord, the incessant need to correct. They can't help themselves.

John Craig said...

Steven --
"They can't help themselves" is a phrase that's occurred to me in this context many times; but the recent commenters have by and large been much more reasonable. The most recent commenter (before us) is a case in point.

Unknown said...

I think that what this amounts to I'd that neurotypical means exactly that... "typical mindset" very judgemental and basically ignorant to the fact that everyone in this entire universe is not created to be the same... only fools think that way. After I've reviewed the original post it becomes quite obvious to me how insulting and disrespectful it is for most neurotypical people to assume that they know anything that goes on in the mind of someone with Aspergers. To believe that you are "normal" and they are not... indicates a severe lack of intelligence. Until neurotypical people learn the language of autism they too should keep their degrading mouths shut... especially since most neurotypical people do not have the IQ that those with Autism have. I am here to bridge the gap and I understand both sides... those of you who consider yourselves "normal" better think again because you are going to share this planetc with others who don't think like you and to be quite honest they don't want to be like you so you can just up that notion and perhaps use a tiny portion of your brain to learn how to properly communicate with those who are NOT a genetic disease... like you would prefer to label them. The article that you wrote was completely disrespectful and insulting and it is indeed people like you that need to seek help. As for all you siblings of Asperger brothers and sisters... get out of your own selfish heads and learn how to reason with people that deserve your respect. If my children ever spoke to each other with that level of disdain it would be the neurotypical that I would be placing into therapy. That attitude of yours alone needs some real adjustment. Here is a clue... if you aren't going to treat those with aspergers like human beings... then they aren't going to have any respect for you at all. Your minimal thought process doesn't come close to their level of processing and the more you try to label them the more foolish you appear. They read your disgusting comments and don't want to be anything like people who act like neurotypical individuals because that's just "typical" anyone can be typical. So everytime you talk in terms of "awkward" YOU look awkward. Everytime you choose to talk "cure" you are disliked even more. You are not in the realm of those who have elite sensory systems and you will never be. They do not need to speak to you... You act ignorant. So get this through your heads. Do not insult the Aspie community... they are far wiser then you can even begin to touch base with. It would be wise for you to learn their language... if you don't ... in due time you will begin to realize that one day you are going to have to because this world is not not made of just "typical" people and they have every right to this planet. Better get that thru your heads.

Unknown said...

What I don't get is why don't you NTs just be merciful and shoot us? I personally know I'm a fuck up and can't be a functioning member of society. People like you are in charge, and know we're useless. I'd welcome a bullet. Why don't you just do it?

Unknown said...

What I don't get is why you Neurotypicals just don't shoot us. I personally would welcome it, knowing that I'll never have a meaningful relationship of any kind or be able to hold a job I haven't spent 20 years specializing in. How would I even afford to specialize?

Just end it already. Stop bitching about how different I am and just shoot me.

Unknown said...

Jeanne, the problem is he's right. To the entire world, you either know how to socialize, or you're useless. It's how it is. It's how it's always been. Now we just get taken care of and 'tolerated.' This victim mentality is validated because NTs CANNOT give "context" for what we need. For them, it's an instinct, something that doesn't get noticed unless you spend years studying it. It's absolutely exhausting for an NT to explain everything, and they shouldn't have to. If we can't adapt, we're a burden. We end up living under bridges, drinking to numb the pain until we die alone. And, as John Craig agrees, it's how it should be.

Unknown said...

Dont' filter those last two comments. When I lash out at someone, this is what I'm feeling. "If I'm so wrong with my existence, why do you allow me to exist?" I just wish I could be normal.

John Craig said...

Wyatt --
It's not up to me what happens to you; I just described Aspies so that NT's will know what they're dealing with.

In case you haven't noticed (above), I don't filter any comments, as long as they're relevant to the post. I do like the way you ordered me not to filter yours, those.

And thank you, by the way, for providing a great example of how Aspies like to put words into others' mouths. I've known other Aspies who do this all the time as well.

Unknown said...

I thank you. You might have been exactly the motivation I needed to end it. Thank you. You've helped me understand exactly how I look to everyone else, especially those who currently rule this society.

John Craig said...

Wyatt --
Don't end it. Just try to change, as some of the other commenters with Aspergers have said they're trying to do. Or find some friends who also have Aspergers; I've never understood why Aspies don't just befriend each other.

Unknown said...

"Try to change." Wow. Just wow. As if I haven't spent my entire life trying. Why don't we "Just befriend each other"? Holy fuck, do you think fat people don't like sex because they might get it less?

Because we have the same psychological/social needs as a "normal" person. We need social stimulation, but we can't reach out for it. But I'm just shoving words in your mouth, what do any of you Neurotypicals care. It's not like our feelings exist.

Anonymous said...

Very good article. As a NT living with an Aspie for decades I can vouch for the truth of your descriptions. Thank you.ulrike.

John Craig said...

Ulrike --
Thank you.

Unknown said...

That's some of the most nonsense I've ever read online.

Unknown said...

That's some of the most unsympathetic and abusive nonsense I've read in my life.

John Craig said...

j jones --
I'm glad you at least corrected your English.

coia74 said...

How very matter of fact this reads, it is a shame you are so narrow in your observations. When you have met one Aspie you have met one Aspie; no two people are ever completely the same, whether they have a processing difference or not. Though many may share some of the same traits, there are NO absolutes when it comes to the functioning of the brain.

Anonymous said...

They say if you know one person with AS then you know one person with AS. If that's true, then why does this article resonate so strongly with me? Why does it sound like a word-perfect description of the one AS guy that I know?

I am very grateful that I found this blog, as it helped me to know that I am not going insane and my experience was valid.

I didn't mind that he couldn't read my facial expression, didn't understand my point of view. I didn't even mind the meltdowns and the shouting, the foot-stamping, being thrown across the room. The constant criticism broke my heart and self esteem, but even then I could have forgiven everything, if he would have allowed me to speak my opinion, to explain myself. To accept that my version of reality is just as valid as his, even if we disagree. That I am allowed to have feelings. Allowed to cry, even if he feels nothing.

In the beginning he was sweet and caring and if his behaviour was too much for me and i started crying, he said sorry. But eventually I accumulated too many black points with him. It was as if I got transferred from the white box to the black box. From that point on, everything i said was wrong. Every opinion I had was wrong. Every fact was wrong, even if it was the truth. I am ugly, I am lazy, I am weak. After 9 months of behaviour which was objectively abusive, I eventually stood up to him and said, I need you to be nice to me. Instead of working towards resolution, it only made all the problems in our relationship 500% my fault and his expectations way exeeding anything I am physically or emotionally capable of.

I understand that it's hard for him, because he is unable to see my point of view. But if he can't see it, why can't he let me explain it? It's impossible to resolve conflict with a person who does not listen.

Talking to him was like talking to a wall.

I told him I am sorry if I hurt him and I didn't mean to. I told him I love him and I am always here for him. But he blocked me everywhere and has made up some fantasy story (which he tells mutual friends) about bad things that I didn't do.

It's hopeless.

I love him with the AS but i cannot deny my own emotional needs.

I dream that one day he will forgive me for the bad things he thinks I did (which i didnt).

I love him even if he hates me forever.

Thank you to the writer of this blog.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you for your comment.

Funny, I often think of that exact same phrase, "like talking to a wall," when it comes to dealing with the Aspie I know.

Listen, the last thing you should do is allow him to affect your self-image. Knowing what you've put up with, and that you're still willing to be patient with him, tells me you're way too good for him.

Anonymous said...

Dear John

Thanks for your reply. Don't worry, I don't want a relationship with him... my needs cannot be met with that... but I do wish we could be friends. However, seeing as he has decided that I am an evil witch, then literally everything I say and do is always interpreted as something bad, and I cannot escape from the black box he has put me in. And yes there has been convenient amnesia or rewriting of history in order to maintain his hypothesis.

I am sorry for him because he pushes away the people that love and accept him the most. I want him to learn to forgive as much for his sake as for mine. He is on track to spend the rest of his life alone and lonely if he continues this way. It's both infuriating and self-destructive behaviour.

By the way, he is quite misoginystic and it didn't occur to me that this was linked with his AS until i read your comment about how they dislike people who belong to different groups.

Part of the reason I wrote my post was for my own therapeutic purposes. However I also read about half of the comments here, and there are a lot of angry aspies who seem to think the NT world hates them or is somehow against them. This is absolutely not true! There are many of us who really care about our AS acquaintances and who want to work with them. However it is DIFFICULT and BOTH parties have to work hard.

There has to be respect and forgiveness on both sides. I don't know if AS people can forgive? but I will make the suggestion to them that if they try it their lives might be less lonely and they might feel less angry. (unless of course they are in an abusive situation, then it's best to get out)

And incidentally, I don't think there is only one way of being/having aspergers. A lot of the comments on this thread showed me that some AS people are really willing to learn and to listen and improve (incidentally, these are good skills for NT people too and not all NT people have them). However, as i wrote in my first post, the original blog could have been written about my AS guy, it was so fitting. Therefore, there is at least a subtype of AS who are sufficiently common that they can really be generalised the description here.

Thanks again.

John Craig said...

Anon (M)--
Ah, good, I thought you were in a relationship with him, something along those lines.

Yes, they do like to accuse other who describe their behavior accurately as evil; witness all of those comments. Judging from those, I am the Devil himself.

I've never been bullied by an Aspie; but I've been annoyed by them no end.

I laud you for your patience, you have much more than me.

Anonymous said...

Hi John, unfortunately I cannot give too much details about my personal situation for fear of identifying myself, but yes we were involved physically (to a limited extent), and both considered having a relationship. By some people's definition you could even argue that we had a relationship. But for him I wasn't really his "type" and for me I understood that I need a deeper emotional connection.
I mainly spent a lot of time with him because I had to work closely with him. It was in the capacity of working with him that I had to put up with all the stuff i wrote in my first post. It's hard for me to explain but his situation just touched me deeply. Call it compassion or empathy, I don't know, maybe if I had a higher self-esteem I wouldn't care about him or what he thinks of me. I have been told that I deserve more than the "crumbs" of love he gave me. Which I can accept, but it does not switch off caring about him and wanting to be friends.


Anonymous said...

p.s. i think you have been very patient to answer so many of the posts on here, some of which have been very rude and insulting

John Craig said...

Anon/M --
Okay, got it. Yes, working with an Aspie who's that unreasonable would be a trial.

You do deserve better, by the way.

John Craig said...

PS -- Not sure I'd call that patience. For the most part I've been rude and insulting right back. (And really, the original post was pretty "insulting" if you want to view it in that light, so they all felt that they were merely defending themselves.)

My general rule is that I'll post any comment, no matter how insulting, as long as it's relevant to whichever post it's commenting on.

Anonymous said...

I strongly suspect my wife is like this. For 5 years she kept a diary where she said incredibly hurtful things about me, most of them either completely untrue or wildly exaggerated - pretty much an entry every day for that timespan. I got suspicious because she was acting even stranger than usual, and read the diary. She denied writing it.

When I showed it to her she said "it wasn't her" and she "couldn't remember". Never once did she admit that she consciously wrote it - and claims she was "someone else" during that period. One day she just stopped - well before I found it. I am sure some aspies on here will come up for all sorts of justifications as to why she did what she did, probably by saying I'm lying or have some other problem.

The only reason I don't think she is a sociopath is that she is basically such an idiot about all of it, and made the diary laughably easy to find.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Until I got to your last paragraph, I had been planning to point out that at least your wife isn't a sociopath. She was merely keeping a private diary, not broadcasting your fictional "sins" to the world, as a sociopath would have done. But you seem to have the situation well analyzed.

And yes, in my experience, false accusations are an as pie specialty. They leave you shaking your head and wondering where they came up with that stuff.

Anonymous said...

I dated an aspie. He refused to take responsibility for his part in things... I'd try to tell myself, 'this guy has aspergers it's not his fault.' Regardless of what condition a person has the other people in their lives are affected by it and if you REFUSE to get help, well, I don't know what to say. It's absolutely painful to care about someone who cannot see your point of view and will always say, "if you have a strong reaction to something I say, that's your problem, it's something within you" after he said a totally offensive thing. Any time I tried to talk to him about something he would totally take it to the next level and freak out...like a kid. At times it would turn into a fight you might have with your sibling at age 9. Strangest thing. His logic was no logic.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I agree on all counts. They refuse to take blame for anything. They are generally incapable of seeing anything from another's point of view. And yes, the utter lack of logic is amazing. But, that said, there have actually been a few Aspies who've written in here (on this post) who've sounded quite logical and reasonable. They've talked about how they're trying to change, and how frustrating it is to be an Aspie. But the majority are like the ones who wrote many of the first 200 or so comments, as you describe.

Unknown said...
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Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Craig said...

Anon --
That could well be. You just described several of the foremost traits of people with Aspergers: they talk at you rather than with you, they feel the need to constantly correct, and they are poor communicators. But I'm confused: at the beginning you said you're convinced your boss has Aspergers, but then you started referring to "they" in the plural. Are there two of them, both of whom have the syndrome?

Unknown said...

john, i'm referring to this personal generally, not using their gender. sorry for the confusion. a hangover from constantly having to watch what i say.

John Craig said...

Gambino Dellacroce --
Okay, gotcha. It's one person. I agree with your analysis, it certainly sounds as if he or she has Aspergers.

BTW, sorry for addressing you as "Anon" in my first reply, that's just a habit that comes from replying to a lot of commenters who don't use a name. I assume you're a Mob buff.

Unknown said...

John, no worries. As a precaution I use a pseudonym so my social media is not connected to my real life.

Yes I am a mob buff, whether the real life history or the movies themselves.

Reading your post and the comments here has been insightful and helped me dealing with my own situation.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
John Craig said...

Gambino Dellacroce --
Don't blame you for looking elsewhere. My experience with Aspies is that yes, they have a very hard time admitting mistakes, but at the same time they're not particularly successful at gas lighting because they just don't read people well and they're also usually pretty transparent.

And yes, they often have a hard time with eye contact.

Unknown said...

Maybe not gaslight, but generally, they will go through all sorts of mental gymnastics and excuses to avoid being the one at fault.

John Craig said...

Gambino Dellacroce --
Yes, that's true. But it's generally sociopaths, not Aspies, who are successful gaslighters. "Gaslighting" to me implies evil, which is something that Aspies are generally not.

Anonymous said...

I disagree with much of what is being discussed on this forum concerning the Asperger type. This is not because I wish to defend bad behaviour from any particular personality style or cognitive/communication style, but because it always rakes two to tangle. Being sociopathic I feel is neither a good nor bad thing, it is just a dominant style. Most of us would tick an item or two on its checklist. When I encounter someone displaying manipulative behaviour I make the effort to deal with it (usually an immediate about turn/cancel the contract, whatever). I have learned about sociopathy and its components. likewise people with Aspergers. Communication is difficult. But if any of the telltale signs emerge I make the effort to communicate effectively in a style that works. Ultimately everybody has some kind of attribute that raises their score a little or a lot on some abnormal psychology scale. My focus of interest has been for several decades the Right Wing Authoritarian scale, something that I consider a disorder. I have tried to understand it and develop strategies for interacting with people who exhibit it. Those of us who consider ourselves well-balanced 'Neuro-typical' in the present context should not escape scrutiny either. The raft of cognitive biases, emotional norms suited to hunter-gatherer tribesman rather civilisational complex technologically organised persons, and often mob group dynamics, are exhibited by Neuro-Typicals. Would I be wrong to label this NT disorder? I don't consider any of the trait/state scales abnormal really. I leave that to the DSMV, it is for practitioners and their clients to decide what is disordered and requiring of intervention, or label. To be truly 'normal' I have to demonstrate that I can relate to anybody sufficient to find some common ground. And to my second point. Having just read Neurotribes, I cannot see how John has come to his characterisation of perople with Aspergers. I have to say that mst of the attributes seem to fit more with Right Wing Authoritarianism than Aspergers, notably the reasoning deficits and lack of self-insight, aggression, and need for adherence to rules and norms. That is textbook RWA stuff

Unknown said...

Phase Transit, to jump in briefly for John, as I've had recent experience with someone with Asperger's. There no doubt are characteristics that crossover with different conditions, however, there are also unique ones such as meltdowns, monologues instead of dialogues, talking about favourite subjects that bore people, a literal inability to see other perspectives, awkward style and grooming etc. These are distinct and seen commonly in people with Asperger's.

feminineperambulator said...

Oh dear, it would seem that you have had a very limited and not so positive experience of interacting with people with Aspergers. As with all people there are indeed some folks out there with Aspergers who do indeed exhibit the traits and behaviours that you reflect, and they sadly stand out in a crowd thus people come to view this as 'normal Apergers behaviour, however thankfully they are infact the minority not the majority. As with the raising of all children there are some who are forgiven their individual issues, traits and behaviours and never pulled up or taught to manage them, they grow up to be self centred and to all intent and purpose believe themselves entitled and in some instances superior, this is just normal bad behaviour and should never be excused. However, there are many more people with Aspergers who have been supported throughout their lives in finding strategies to manage their individual issues, I say individual because as there are many different types of 'normal' people there are many different types of people with Aspergers. Most go through life quietly, peacefully with no negative affect on those around them, building good friendships both in and outside of work, showing deep care to their friends and feeling great empathy and emotional care, all be it in a less effusive way than is the expected norm. The majority know how to say sorry, they know that they get social interaction wrong and know how to ask for guidance from their friends and family when out of their depth. Not all are OCD, not all are clumsy, not all are inarticulate, not all live in the belief they are right, infact the vast majority, in my 30yrs experience, have shown they are more worried and exhibit great anxiety about getting things wrong and will strive to find the right way, the right information and are very patient in teaching others about their interests and learning from others. Thankfully having worked my whole adult life with people who have Aspergers, they taught me a whole lot about the nature of the syndrome, so when as was expected due to family history, I had a child with Aspergers I knew where to start, how to guide, how to teach her to embrace her condition, how to empower her, how to take responsibility for it and manage it. I am happy to say she and her Aspergers peers don't fit with the picture you describe, though I have met one or two over the years that do and I blame poor parenting, poor support and lax boundaries instilled in them throughout their formative years. The problem arises when these few people are forgiven their poor behaviour because they have Aspergers rather than because they are just exhibiting poor behaviour. If a child with Aspergers learns social norms by rote and positive experience they should exhibit over formality, politeness and a high level respect for rules, if they learn by getting away with lax behaviour they become entitled bullies just like NT children do. As you cannot paint NT with the same brush, one should never paint all with Aspies with the same brush, which sadly you seem to have done.I hope that in time you will come to meet the people with Aspergers who don't stand out in the crowd because they are so busy getting on with their own lives and interests in a positive way that they go largely unnoticed, considered at most to be mildly eccentric in the great scheme of life.

John Craig said...

Maisydot --
You make a good point. If there are Aspies out there who don't exhibit the symptoms I describe, then I would not have recognized them as Aspies, and they wouldn't have fed into my overall impression of Aspies, which means I'm only describing the ones who weren't socialized the right way, and, thus, I have a skewed viewpoint. Fair enough.

Anonymous said...

Take a look at reddit.com/r/aspergers
Look at the top posts and everything posted. The new ones too, browse it.

I agree with everything you said as a person with the condition.
But don't forget, the ones who are plagued the most are those unfortunate enough to be born with this terrible useless disease. I am all for a cure, screw those who say it makes them special or happy.

Anonymous said...

They're annoying weirdos

Anonymous said...

Uh, as a guy with aspergers. There is nothing more I loathe than the symptoms I was born with, and I also hate some other people with the condition. Namely the ones who are happy and proud to have the disease. But it pisses me off when a NT person comes along and makes no distinction. The one's who suffer the most are those unfortunate enough to be born mentally deformed.

Anonymous said...

Hello, I've read this post several times and I'm married to an aspergirl. Although there is a bit of a "venting" tone to it, most of the points made are spot on at times. It's very easy for an aspie to feel cornered or attacked, even if that is not the case. Misunderstandings are just a fact of life when in a close relationship with someone who has aspergers. In the event that stress is high, they can behave very irrationally and lash out in sometimes shocking ways. However, aspergers isn't an all encompassing characteristic. It doesn't have to define a person. Like anyone else, each aspie is an individual and can be an amazing person or a complete asshole. I admit it can be extremely taxing communicating with an aspie, especially when the content is highly emotional, but there are also unique strengths and abilities that can be associated with aspergers. For any aspies reading this post, I would ask that you try to understand that the points made here are valid. You've probably had your biggest struggles in relationships with the people who love you the most because the emotional investment is stronger for both parties involved than in more casual relationships. I would also ask that you not view yourself as cursed or as better than anyone else. You are you. I apologize for the lengthy comment. Thanks

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you for that balanced comment.

Anonymous said...

I am a sociopath and I find aspies to be very amusing, their lack of social intuition and their lack of instinct for malice makes them a very easy target.I really dont have to put much effort into making them my bitch. You as a nt get very frustrated and irritated by them but we sociopath can greatly tolerate any deviant set of behaviors therefore it enables us to take full advantage of their disorder.

Aspies make up for something I usually hate, that is small details and boring hard work if given a clear literal command aspies can be very reliable because they do things without question aslong as you convince them that is the right thing. In my high shcool days there was this very smart aspie girl who was very skilled at math and science and I always managed to persuade her to do my homework and essays.

Dont hate on them so much they annoy you but we sociez love me theyre our pets and are much more damn loyal.

John Craig said...

Anonymous Sociopath --
Yes, Aspies, as the opposite of sociopaths in some ways, would be the most vulnerable to the depredations of a sociopath.

Anonymous said...

John,
I have been a partner to a few aspies unknowingly because I had no idea what an aspie was. I have been criticised and held responsible for many things that an aspie would not take responsibility for..it can be very hurtful and upsetting. Aspies are individual in who they are but what they deal with (mind blindness etc.) is consistent. Spending time with an aspie, as a partner, you often feel used as a facilitator and you end up being as isolated as them because for most, they think only of themselves. I recommend to anyone, especially a partner, not to stay and to move on or you will lose self-esteem and be hurt in the process.

I recently came across another man who is a realtor. He lied about his qualifications to get me to hire him and then in the end when things went wrong lied to other people involved in the deal. I have yet to file a complaint about him but I think it is necessary as he could cause a lot of damage financially to his clients. I was lucky I had a sense he was an aspie. During the process I was very stressed because he was so rigid in how he dealt with me it was incredible. It has taken me a few months to sort out my thinking because of he handled all of this. I was mistreated in the end when I tried to talk to him about all of this. He spent time telling me how mad HE was at me. Everything about the deal was about him and I was the client!

I have seen how aspies operate on a very intimate level and I have seen it all. How can you have a close relationship with another person when you do not understand their needs?

Also, aspies, to function daily, run on scripts. They will also repeat back to you what you said, as a response because they do not know how to handle situations as they come up. More often then not, they have issues of control as did this realtor and that again is based on their perspective. To maintain order they will control others close to them to get their needs met, again often negating the needs of the other person. They also gravitate to people who are natural helpers like me. They need help on a daily basis and again it is a quest to meet their needs.

S.




Jazmine Radioactive Russell said...

Honestly. This is really insulting. I was diagnosed recently with Aspies and I'm nothing like what you described. Only a few things were actually accurate and I've lived with this my whole life. Which brings me to the question. With me being an Aspie. How does any of this make sense. BTW. I was diagnosed by the state as an Aspie as part of my SSI evaluation. I have a functioning, but debilitating form. Also my entire life is the opposite of what you described. I tried out religion. Disliked it. I hate conforming. I'm a Buddhist/Spiritualist. I have no real routine at all other than I get irate when people mess up my plans. I do have OCD. I do have horrible repetition. I knowingly admit to obsessive focuses, though much of it is pointed out to me in the moment. I can't tell social cues with most people. Although if I've known you and bonded with you I can actually learn how you act and basically negate this. Then I become the queen of sarcasm and jokes. Aside from that in most religious and "proper" households I'm lost. Which I honestly just believe is because I don't fit in and have no interest in learning those behaviors bc I don't belong in those situations. But I'm an Aspie sir. Completely diagnosed by a psychiatric professional.

Unknown said...

Reading this and honestly, this is not me at all. I was diagnosed with a couple psychiatrists for having it back when I was 15-16 and had depression and bipolar.

I'm someone whom people would call fair-minded. I listen to criticisms. I don't stick up for women just because I'm female. In fact, I've stuck up for men more than I do women because they tend to be more logical and accurate. I finish my tests earlier than most people. (About 90% of them. The 10% hand in their tests early because they can't do it. (Just kidding.) ) I'm not the type of person who'd go up to people who smoke or drink and tell them because it's bad for their healths. Hell, I do smoke and drink myself too. But I try not to do it or do it as less as possible.
I'd say I have a personality of an INTP from Myers-Briggs categorization. I was very shy as a kid. Had a really bad case of shyness. I'd not talk to any stranger and would play my musical instruments as quiet as possible because I don't want my neighbors to hear my stuff. I think I start to get over it when I was about 11. So, that's my personality. I was also very good at math, physics and languages.

Unknown said...

People also told me I have a snarky and sometimes, dark sense of humor. Get called "smartass" quiet a lot.

Unknown said...

I don't even dislike bright lights and loud noises (except it's really hurting my eyes and my ears) even though I know a lot of people who do.. and not even them has Aspergers. I also don't get into the whole name-calling fights. I think it's fucking retarded. I may name-call someone I don't like but I would never get into a fucking debate with them out of it.

Unknown said...

But yes, I was quite fascinated with planes and everything mechanical. Not trains though. Trains are fucking lame. Not complicated or fascinating at all for me.

Unknown said...

And, by the way, I find Zach's character in Hangover very annoying. I don't like animals either. Not even cats and dogs. I find them cute but that's it. People over animals 100%. Though, I might pick video games over people.

Unknown said...

If Aspergers is impossible to self-diagnose like you said, then I definitely do not have it. I mean shit, I don't know. Some say I have. Some say I don't. But by this article, according to you, I can tell that that's not me at all. Maybe, they're mistaken because I have an IQ of 150 and very quiet? Like how they're mistaken with Einstein and Newton.

Unknown said...

As for motor skills, I'm very very good at drawing portraits and people compliment me on it.

Unknown said...

@John Craig
Or maybe she is just a black bitch with really low IQ.

Unknown said...

Oh, wait, it's the same thing.

John Craig said...

Phuck --
To whom are you referring?

sociopath anon. said...

Its me again.
At first I did have some semblance of respect towards you considering that, you more or less accurately described aspies but after reading your pathetic myriad of of bogus and strident library of rants regarding us sociopaths, I just laugh at you my friend. Not for one moment did I feel offended but rather I was simply flabbergasted to how misguided you are dude.

The thing is you have a very shallow view of us, almost all your sociopath related articles consists of moaning of how we socies are sooooooooooooooooooo evil (a word with no scientific bearing), you incessantly talk about how we cheat lie and manipulate to achieve our goals as if we are super dependent on people when we are actually more self-sufficient and self-dependent than you nts. We aren't reliant on the anti social behaviors, we just use them as a tool and we do it the best. we get things done more and have more supporters because we are intellectually superior The smartest species are always the most predatory. Your ranting has got little to do with demonstrating our true nature but a lot to do with mellow drama and emotionally driven projections.


What you hate to admit is that despite all your BS empath moral pleadings to antagonize us you know deep down that we are superior that is the reason why you use the word evil so much as insults because words such as 'dumbass' 'retarded' 'naive' 'emotional hag' or any label of incompetence, wouldn't apply to us. It exclusively applies to you nts
But what you seem to hate the most to admit is the fact that you got bullied and abused in your past life viciously by sociopaths, thy made you their bitch, that's precisely why you try to come off as a maverick know it all pseudo skeptic, you pretend that your arrogant words has any effect regarding sociopathy, Instead you actually reveal how traumatized you are. If you keep on running your mouth like this on how evil we are, you're going to end being killed eventually dont try to drivel on this artificial morality baggage on a sociopath you meet in RL, just a personal warning to you.

Dont take any of the above personally I like to be sinfully honest and that is what I see you as a person. No morality or emotions involved just facts about you.

sociopath anon. said...

Although we can both agree that these aspies especially 'phuck yu' are absolutely child-like terms such as retarded, silly or pathetic would be giving too much credit controlling an aspie is identical with controlling a child.

Sos. anon. said...

What happened jonny so youre just going to allow my post and ignore? damn I knew you didnt have the spine or the brain to confront me.

John Craig said...

Sociopath --
Nah, you're not really worth the time....but thanks for giving anybody who reads this a little glimpse into the mind of sociopath.

Anonymous said...

Yup you just revealed what you are maybe its a Freudian confession.
You claim that I am not worth your time by taking the time to write it........ People seeing this would shame you more than they would shame me.
I called you out exposed you for what you are and you offer no rebuttal? Lol if youre this much of a wuss then whats the point of writing in blogs? especially about sociopath (your blog has a fetish for that) All you can do is moan and complain about sociopaths yet you fail to point out any of our weaknesses or how to defeat us. Its simple you can't no matter what you do we will always be 2 steps ahead of you.

John Craig said...

"Anonymous sociopath" --

Do you really think I long of your approval so much that I would fall for your elementary-school-level taunting of my manhood. That's sociopathy 101, and I've seen sociopaths do it many times.

By the way, you give yourself away as Ahmad in a few ways. first, the above-mentioned "are you man enough" theme which you also used as George Lincoln/Ahmad Amiri. (Did your father use that on you when you were a child?)

Secondly, the idea that I somehow "owe" you a response. This is a blog; I write or not as I choose, not as some troll would have me do. You also seemed to feel that I somehow "owed" you a response as Lincoln/Amiri.

And third, the admission. As Lincoln/Amiri, you admitted that you are a troll. As "Sociopath Anon." you admitted that you are a sociopath. Most sociopaths don't admit that, just as most trolls don't admit they're trolls. In any case, with you it's another tell.

Now, I have a question for you: how do you think it is that you ended up as a sociopath? Did your mother not love you?

Unknown said...

Anonymous who posted on July 24, 2016 at 8:44 AM is probably a 35 year old vi rgin living in mother's basement where posting nonsense online is the only way they can feel important.

Unknown said...

I was diagnosed with Asperger's and I'm nothing like that description. I'm so empathetic I can't watch vulnerable people or animals being harmed on the TV because it affects me too much. Maybe people diagnose others they don't like as having Asperger's?

Anonymous said...

anon sociopath: baseless projections now having aren't we?
When did I ever admit to being a troll and what evidence you have that I am one?
and who the fuck is ahmad amiri? dude I am white born to baptist parents although I am atheist. I scrolled up and didnt see his name anywhere among the 490 comments so you made that stuff up how pathetic can you get dude

what a terrible strawman what has "manhood" or machismo got anything to do with what were talking about. No you dont owe me shit I never claimed you did its not about me its about you, you make endless posts regarding about sociopaths which I criticized which you didn't defend, the point is if youre going to dedicate your time writing so many fallacious posts about the matter why dont you have the courage to rebute the criticisms? courage applies to men and women

My momma loved me and still does I grew up with loving parents, my sociopathy is hereditary from my dad's side and I dont ever recall being abused or traumatized unlike you

btw most sociopaths don't know or care what sociopathy even means much less knowing that they have it and no your wrong sociopaths who do know they got it aren't ashamed to admit it I recommend you search up sociopath world and it clearly shows that sociopaths can get along with eachother very well and you will also see why we abuse nts and especially empaths its simply because your stupidity is cringeworthy we arent abusive for no reason unlike borderliners and psychotics (not to be confused with psychopathic). Aside some serial killers here and there most sociopaths like me lead succesful and charismatic lives I for one am mostly non violent.

Anonymous said...

Ya I thought so youre the epitome of an abused cuck.Just watch your back if you want to live spouting these sentimental drivels.

Your sociopath snatched your spirit and dignity they used and abused you to no end their raping of your mind is still evident by your emotionally charged posts about socios. I am still waiting when you going to make an entry about admitting that you were an abused slave of a soc. thus why writing fallacious nonsense.

don't comfort yourself with the ideas that my warnings are 'elementary taunting' because I dont need to taunt you, you already embarrass yourself No I am just generously giving your fool ass a genuine caution for your own safety.

John Craig said...

Sociopath --
You're not kidding, you're definitely a sociopath.

Are you threatening me? You do know your IP address is trackable, right?

Anonymous said...

Hey numbnuts I never personally threatened you I just gave you a warning that other sociopaths will.

Anonymous said...

J-jones: hey jerkoff jones do me a favor and just stay quit, stay away from the grown up talk between neurotypicals youre brain. simply doesn't have the capacity to have common sense.

Be a good lil dog and shut up

Anonymous said...

Hello,

Thank you for writing this article. I think that it is very hard to hear the truth about a condition as it can leave people feeling hopeless. Aspi people should fight for their right to be understood, but this is a two way street. I think it depends on the support that people with aspergers have had throughout their childhood. Have they had honesty about their condition? Doubtful seen as though it runs through families and that they might see aspergers as a negative label. Perhaps the lack of label and support gives aspi people a lack of experience about their own triggers when having meltdowns etc. Aspi children often go unnoticed at school and undiagnosed because they are bright.

I think that telling a 'warts and all' report is vital for NT people. Much of the literature is 'fluffy' and lacks real life experiences. And yes, the aspi comments are obvious and illustrate your report perfectly.

I recently married an aspergers man and it's been a roller coaster. I think those who are arguing based on friendship or sibling experience do not fully understand what it could be like to have a close, dependant relationship with an Aspi, either in employment or an intimate relationship. Seeing someone every now and again or cohabiting with them doesn't put you in the same situations that could trigger stress or meltdowns.

I love my aspi husband but often feel in crisis mode following regular criticism and suffering his meltdowns. By the way, most of his symptoms didn't emerge until after we were married due to (apparently) increased expectation and being able to relax fully.

This is my list of good and challenging aspi traits:

Good
- intelligent. Knows something about everything!
- funny/ charming
- creative problem solver
- great musician
- if not stressed- loving, caring and supportive. Often tells me that he's proud of my achievements and successes
- always tries to understand me- eventually
- says sorry if it's clear that he's wrong
- acute sense of justice and fairness

Challenges
- difficulty in coping with stress leading to meltdowns
- tells things literally. Good if your top doesn't complement your skirt but more offensive if you're told you won't make a good mum as you get tired even after a day's work. Causing resentment and poor self esteem
- has difficulty in understanding why something isn't how they imagined. I once made him a salad rather than a sandwich and I was critised followed by a meltdown. He said I hadn't listened. That was probably correct but it was a mistake and one I could easily change
- some aspis suffer with other conditions such as depression and acute anxiety, making it more complicated
- needy.
-He doesn't like to socialise much and finds it tricky to understand that I do.
- Copes poorly under pressure/ deadlines. Can result in meltdown

I often wonder what he would be like if his parents were honest with themselves and with him from a young age, thus getting him support and condition management.

Thanks

George Lincoln said...

Hey man its been awhile, you doing good bud? LOL me meet yet again.

This time I am writing because I am genuinely sorry. I apologize for my trolling and being a such an asshole in general but let me explain myself regarding some of the serious things we discussed because I don't want you to misunderstand me.

I really don't hate America but do criticize its aggressive foreign interventionist policies if America minded its own business and focused on improving itself then I would have no resentment, In fact I toured the USA many times and I loved it. You would agree with me that most of Americas military adventures have turned out utterly disastrous for both parties such as operation Iraqi freedom, 1 million Iraqis dead, tens of thousands of disturbed American soldiers(PTSD), 1-2 trillion dollars wasted and the end result: an unstable and divided Iraq which gave rise to Daesh/ISIS. Saddam as cruel as he was atleast kept the jihadists in check.

Also I am the furthest thing from a leftists if I was born as white in America I would be similar to you politically however the reason I mentioned the hate terms such as "homophobia,sexist,racist etc.." was because the western media especially those on the right use that line of attack to criticize Islam in general which you gotta admit seems hypocritical.

I sympathize with you on a personal level, we are both mix-raced I can relate with you of the troubles of growing up in 2 worlds and having identity issues because of it and I also heard we halfies are more prone to depression and self loathing.

George Lincoln said...

Also please do not mistake me for "sociopath anon". I hate sociopaths and narcissists people who simply live off by making others lives a living hell for pleasure should be annihilated.

Unknown said...

Lots of the usual morons with no life who post online are on here talking nonsense.

Anonymous said...

Anon soc.: Hey j-jones what did I tell you this is a forum for nt people aspie slaves should not speak unless spoken to.

Anonymous said...

I just want to point out something about your article.

It's not totally inaccurate however where you give your prognosis about people with aspergers, such as lacking fine motor skills such as being unable to type: I type at around 109 wpm and I 'm a programmer. I've been touch typing since I was 12.

I'm also quite adept with martial arts, in that I have no major issues with the coordination required, I'm not claiming I'm a great martial artist, just that I have no coordination issues with it.

I'm also quite deft at palming coins and doing card tricks, in that I can be nimble enough to perform the intricate and quick movements required.

However I've been diagnosed with Aspergers and so I find your absoluteness to be hyperbolic.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Here is the relevant paragraph from the post you seem to be referencing:

"They tend to have poor fine motor coordination. So they won't be good at things like typing, or dipping a knife into a honey jar and then twirling the knife so that the honey doesn't drip down the side of the jar. They are also more likely to get into minor fender benders."

Absoluteness? "They tend to" and "are more likely to" are not absolute words, in fact just the opposite.

George Lincoln said...

It seems that you're still upset with me or perhaps you just want to not respond to me, I understand I pushed my boundaries way too many times so I don't blame you

But I really want to make it clear that I apologize not just for giving you a headache but also for the things I said about your race and country and also I want you to have a more positive view of the 1.6 billion Muslims, Yes there significantly a lot of Muslim individuals and entities who have fucked up ideologies and commit vile acts of terror but the point is the majority of the Muslim world condemns them to hell, when suicide bombers blow themselves up they wont get 72 free pussies to tap but rather be assfucked by shaytan (devil) in the deepest recess of hell.

The reason I am being so pushy to make peace with you is that its the obligation of my religion to resolute conflicts. Peace be upon you brother

John Craig said...

George Lincoln/Ahmad Amiri --

Okay, peace.

HappySpaceInvader said...

One of the most unfortunate 2 myths about Aspergers is that it necessarily comes with great intelligence and lack of insight. In fact there are many people with Aspergers who have insight into their condition - it doesn't help as much as you'd hope, but I suppose these are the people you "can barely tell" have Aspergers, and it is my belief that these are the intelligent ones. The problem is that people with Aspergers often come with "skills" (such as card counting or incredible calendrical skills) that people think makes them "smart". This is not intelligence... it's just rote learning, possible only in a brain that lacks the kind or wiring that enables social skills to develop.

I have Aspergers myself, although I only came to realise this in my early 40s. I recognise most of the traits described in your blog, and Inwork hard to try and prevent myself displaying them. I cannot change, but I realise what I am, and that I sometimes upset people. It's not my fault, but it's not theirs either, sonthe only solution is for all of us to compromise a little. Thus, I tell people in advance that I have Aspergers, or if I don't use the A word, I'll at least tell them I have a tendency to waffle on, so please tell me to shut up if you've had enough.

But, sadly, not all Aspies have this insight, as is clear from a lot of the comments above. I just wanted you to know that we're not all like that.

John Craig said...

Happy SpaceInvader --
Thank you for that levelheaded comment. Weirdly, a lot of the first 250 or so comments were from outraged Aspies lashing out and telling me what a horrible person I am. They were all, of course, unwittingly illustrating the points I made in the post. But of the more recent 200 or so comments, I've gotten a fair number like yours -- very calmly delivered, cogent, and reasonable. All of which, I guess, give the lie to my post.

But, I'd certainly never say that all Aspies are exactly alike. Just that there are certain tendencies that I've noticed in my personal life.

I would like to point out that there is a difference between insight into one's own condition, and insight into others. I don't doubt that many Aspies have the former, especially since once they are diagnosed they will generally delve into the subject, but the latter is hard to develop if you had a hard time reading people.

Anyway, yeah, good points, and you seem to deal with and have come to terms with your Aspergers quite well.

Anonymous said...

You were troubled by the horrible Asp yeah yeah yeah yeah

Anonymous said...

What is interestingly absent is sympathy for those with autism. Almost every extension of sympathy are to people who live with or know said person with autism, which is actually kind of autistic in a way ironically. If a man with a heart attack were to fall down and block a door to a bathroom, who is suffering more: the person who tripped over the person on the way in or the person with the heart attack himself?

People with autism/aspergers really really suffer from their condition. Heightened levels of neuropathic headaches, bullying in their youth, sensory overload, and many more but people who have posted comments don't see it that way, they see an only autism and not a person WITH AUTISM. Everyone suffers in the end and many would gladly be cured (minus the one's in the USA for some reason, everyone here in Asia with the condition seems to want to be fixed.) We do not see people with autism and people without vs autism the disorder as it should be, rather I keep seeing people putting it as autistic people vs non autistic which shouldn't be that way.

When I read stories about parents of low functioning children, I shake my head when all the supposedly "empathetic and sympathetic" comments always go out only to the parents or relatives, nobody stops to feel bad for the person in the article who self harms and is in constant painful hell. Some even seem to be glad about it saying "serves them right for being autistic!" without realizing the inconsistency in that statement.

Annoying as aspies or autistic are, you have to admit they aren't happy and they may suffer even more from their disease than their parents or peers in some cases. So ironic, despite having fully functioning empathy, many NTs laugh when they hear misfortune happening to autistic people nor do they realize they could have been born with the condition if they were unlucky enough. So they say "they aren't people! They are things! Retards!", well the hatred displayed seems to not look like a negative hatred directed at an inanimate object, it looks very personal and like positive hatred.

But this also cuts the other way too, many higher functioning aspies can choose to realize their differences exist and attempt to fight what they can. They have an obligation to also accommodate others. There is this quote from a video game "Is it better to be born good or to overcome one's evil nature through great effort?" well autism doesn't really equal evil so much as weird nor can a person be cured through willpower alone, but the point rests. It seems to be more of a western thing for aspies to romp around and be proud of it, many other patients I've heard about in Hong Kong for instance would prefer to be normal.

John Craig said...

Anon --
You make a good point. And I'm obviously as guilty of that as anyone.

It does go against human nature, though, to be sympathetic to a set of traits which individually don't inspire sympathy. What if someone were to say that you had to be more sympathetic to someone who was incredibly hypocritical? Most people's reaction would be, screw that. Or if you were told that you had to be more sympathetic to someone who had no sense of humor and was painfully awkward? Or if you were told that you had to show more sympathy to someone who would frequently lose his temper and scream at you? These are traits it's hard to work up sympathy for.

If someone is severely autistic, people in general will be inclined to be sympathetic, because there is an obvious organic defect which is near crippling, at least socially, and it's apparent from the start. Aspergers is a far more subtle thing, and is often not apparent at first. So people only gradually become aware of it, trait by trait, and by the time the realization of the diagnosis sinks in, they've been annoyed and even infuriated by that person so many times that the window for sympathy has been permanently closed.

That said, though, I agree with your larger point: people with organic conditions cannot help themselves, and deserve sympathy for a condition they have no control over.

It occurs to me that one good way for Aspies to gain sympathy would be to own up to their condition early on when they meet new people, which would allow others to be aware of their handicap, and make allowances for the Aspies in a way they would not for a neurotypical who exhibited some of those same traits.

(BTW, I thought your comment was so good I'm going to make a post out of it.)

Anonymous said...

Hi John! And anyone else that might read this.

I'm an Aspie (please don't freak out). I know I'm kinda late to the party here, but I guess I just had a couple things to say, and I hope they haven't all been said before.

Yeah, my first reaction when I read this article was to feel a little bit hurt. I mean, some of these things describe me perfectly... I'm super awkward. Bright lights freak me out, and I can be quite gullible/literal. Jokes fly over my head, and my language usage can be downright bizarre.

But there were things I couldn't relate to that hurt worse. The main one was the apology/never being wrong thing. I catch myself being wrong constantly, as do other people, and I feel a need to say sorry and set the record straight when I screw up or get my facts incorrect. I hope no one has ever found me difficult on that point, and if they have... I owe that person a big apology. (My friends tell me I over-apologize sometimes. I got diagnosed early in life, so this might be a coping mechanism.)

Anyway, after my initial feelings that this article made some generalizations that don't quite fit me, I realized something... I don't think the author is arguing that this is 100% factual for every Aspie that's ever lived. That would be pretty unreasonable.

He's just voicing some concerns that aren't "textbook" that apply to people he's met with the disorder. Basically... he's venting. It's a blog. People vent on blogs. And who doesn't need to vent? We're all human, and many of these are Aspie traits that would most drive people up the wall.

My next thought was that I'm very lucky and fortunate to have the friends I have, and that if I do any of these things (stone-walling, narcissistic behavior, etc) then I want to know and fix it so I don't push them away. Aspies were definitely not the intended audience of this post, but if we want--even though it hurts--we can learn from venting like this and understand how other people might perceive us. It's difficult going through the world without an innate understanding of body language and social cues, so sometimes it can be useful to rely on blunt criticism (even harsh, slightly offensive criticism) to figure out what normal people think, and maybe use that as a starting point to ask friends and family if we're irritating them by doing any of this.

And to those who are frustrated with us... I understand your where it comes from. We don't mean to annoy people. We just... don't get it sometimes.

Thanks.

--Annie

TL;DR- Holy Text Wall Batman! Didn't mean for it to be that long. Just wanted to say let's have some perspective and chill.

John Craig said...

Annie --
Thank you for that very reasonable response. You're right, I was venting when I wrote this, and you're also right that this has been my experience of Aspergers. If you do apologize to people and admit when you're wrong, then my description doesn't fit you at all. Again, I'm just describing what I've dealt with.

I think that being diagnosed early does help, because it causes people who have the syndrome to learn about it and compensate. The person I was describing most in that post has never been officially diagnosed, has never felt obliged to compensate in any way, and is therefore aggressively and self-righteously wrong much of the time.

It is surprising how much attention this post has gotten. I've written over 2300 posts on this blog, many many more about sociopath than about Aspergers, yet this is the one post which has gotten the most viewings and the highest number of comments, by far. I guess it was linked on some Aspergers support website as an example of how wrongheaded and insensitive most neurotypicals are.

Unknown said...

I have found that my aspergers robs me of the ability to maintain friendships while at the same time leaving me desperate for those friendships. I call Aspergers the loneliness disease.

George Lincoln said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jessica said...

Oh I found it! This Blogpost! XD

Hi John!

It's been awhile. Not sure if you'd remember me but I commented awhile back. Anyway, I wasn't going to comment again just have alittle revisit of the post and the comment section.

But then I saw this "Until neurotypical people learn the language of autism they too should keep their degrading mouths shut... especially since most neurotypical people do not have the IQ that those with Autism have." - Jeanne Marie Mues

and this "Jeanne, the problem is he's right. To the entire world, you either know how to socialize, or you're useless. It's how it is. It's how it's always been. Now we just get taken care of and 'tolerated.' This victim mentality is validated because NTs CANNOT give "context" for what we need." -Wyatt

And I just felt I needed to address this so here it goes.

To Jeanne Marie Mues, I understand that what John has said has upset you and that you are angry with him and by extension others who remind you of him. But please, don't put down and dehumanize people who don't share the same labels as you. Not only will it lead to you alienating yourself from a good chunk of the human population.(Some of whom are actually pretty decent once you get to know them.)But it's also inaccurate, because not everyone on the autism spectrum is intelligent and not every kind of intelligence is measured by IQ.

I know it can be tempting to just lump everyone together into us versus them but it's ultimately not very helpful and really kind of ashame too as I've found that most of the friends I really like and that really end up sticking with me quirks and all are the ones that think differently from me not the ones that are exactly the same.

To Wyatt,
I don't disagree that victim mentality is a danger and indeed a product of society trying to find a hole to stick us in. BUT, factually, we NEED a hole and we NEED help to safely navigate the world as it exists today. I don't even necessarily think that's a good or bad thing, it's just sort of how the world works. You know?

It's ashame that how we naturally are, isn't how we can always be if we want things to go smoothly, but when you think about it literally NO ONE gets to be what they were to begin with,everyone has to grow out of habits and take on things they aren't comfortable with. It's just that there's MORE to adjust for when you're autistic and yeah that's not FAIR but it's not exactly something you can blame on any one factor or change either. So I say why worry? Accept that it can't be changed and move on to what can be changed namely: Yourself.




John Craig said...

Jessica --
Thank you for all that. You exude common sense.

Jessica said...

John--

Thank you for saying so, I hope the people I addressed agree should they see what I wrote.

I was worried it might be misunderstood espeacially what I wrote to Wyatt, I worry he might interpret is as me siding with the "normal" people as it were. But that's not really it at all. I understand where both sides are coming from and I understand where he's coming from. But ultimately I think it's easier and wiser to change what you can rather than what you can't.

And while it's no cake walk nor is it a process that really has an ending, regulating ourselves is easier than trying to change the way the whole world operates. It's not fair that we have to deal with our own instincts and predilections getting in the way of our relationships with others and our ability to move through the world. But it's not fair to blame so called "ordinary" people for it either, or for not understanding. No one consciously chose for this chasm between us to exist, it just does and if we can't deal with it calmly we risk making it so much worse.

And really you can't force other people, to see things from your perspective, you can't force other people to do anything period. That's why I think it's better to start with yourself, not because I think it's anyones fault in particular or that it's automatically autistic peoples duty. But because it's the most useful and doable option even if it still asks an awful lot.

Anonymous said...

Hey,
Thanks for writing this article. I have had some trouble with abusive behaviour (let's call it harassment) from an aspie propped up by others... w/e, it took a fair bit of googling to feel supported and I wish I'd seen this post sooner. Anyway, if it hasn't been added in the comments, support sites for family/friends of AS folks are faaas.org and "aspar". May be very helpful to some. Also, whether or no I have any in the family I identify as neurotical and very intelligent and highly educated, and may I say that AS "logic" can be very illogical and a mask or disingenuous excuse for selfish, thoughtless behaviour :) I do not tolerate harassment and the creep I'm thinking of can learn some manners.

Anonymous said...

Thank you. Thank you for confirming that I'm not going crazy! I've been in a relationship with a man whom I strongly suspect has Aspergers. (His two nephews have been diagnosed so I believe heredity may be at play here). I came across your blog and I can check off almost every characteristic you outline. And it was a relief - a relief to know that it wasn't me losing my mind! Two years into the relationship and I am at the point of ending it despite the fact we love each other. He has many good qualities but the roller coaster ride that is a relationship with an Aspie is too exhausting, draining, sad, not-uplifting, at times tortuous even for what should be the simplest things. Thanks for the opportunity to vent and to see I'm not alone.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you.

Yes, constant contact with an Aspie can make one doubt one's own sanity at times. They're not skillful at gaslighting the way a sociopath is, but they can be so consistently oppositional that at some point you end up questioning yourself, even though there' uno reason to.

Anne said...

John. Is it common for AS to also have sociopathic tendancies?

My partner seems typical AS and where he insults and swears at me alot, I feel he can't help it. He can't accept criticism or that he has hurt me. It seems to be too difficult for him to think he has some wrong.

But he says very spiteful things in am arguement and when not arguing, ie i think you look alot older than you are, I think you look aggressive with your hair up, anyone could do your job (i am a qualified physiotherapist).

Im left confused ... Anne

John Craig said...

Anne --
No, I don't think the two are co-morbid. Aspies can lash out in hurtful ways (we all can) but will do so more than most when they feel they've been criticized. (For an example of that look at the first 200 comments on this post, many are from Aspies, and they certainly lash out at me.) They don't take criticism well and will either come up with a lame excuse for what they've done, or will lash back, and it sounds as if that's what your partner does. The other thing is, you can just offer them helpful advice, phrased in a way you think is relatively diplomatic, and they'll take it as hurtful, nasty, personal criticism.

A sociopath is generally more insidious with their insults, and will try to gaslight you, i.e. get you to believe in what they're telling you. "I think you look older than you are" is almost childishly straightforward, and is such an obvious attempt to hurt your feelings that it's the kind of insult I'd associate with an Aspie but not a sociopath. Ditto for the other two insults you mentioned.

Unknown said...

How can clueless be cool?! You may be right on some points but it doesn't change the fact that you are an unfeeling, impatient UN empathic prick.vent inside your own head

George Lincoln said...

Hey John Craig how is it going? remember me? the devious troll splashing your comment section!!!!

No but seriously you good bro? I wanted to tell you this earlier but figured you need some time to blow of the anger which you rightfully reserved for me
Once again I apologize for any blatantly bigoted remarks I made about your country and for acting goofy but thats just me my best weapons are my devious witts

Th reason I'm messaging you right now is to tell you straight foward that I highly admired your anti sociopath posts, look yes I can troll and annoy people but I dont actually take pleasure in putting people through serious harm and suffering. I think your posts expose and attack these heartless parasites for what they truly are and not what hollywood tells you because lets be honest human society often knowingly and otherwise reward,champion and admire these people because they find them invincible but thanks to the few people like you who truly expose their actual weaknesses instead of just whining "ohh their so terrible" we need to fight fire with fire when it comes to these destructive maggots. I absolutely agree with you once you take the bmask of the sociopath they are nothing but shallow insecure losers

A big part of the reason why I troll people is to see how they respond which truly reveals them and I gotta say I admire you for acting rationally, instead of falling for my bait and cursing me back or even blocking me you stood your ground.

Anyways I would be happy to hear how things are going with your blog.

John Craig said...

Yes George/Ahmad, I remember you. In fact your last comment on this post was just on August 10th.

Well, we agree about sociopaths, at least according to your latest comment. Thank you for your compliments.

Things are going fine with the blog; please feel free to check out the most recent posts.

Anonymous said...

I am autistic (didn't speak till 3-4 so I was not diagnosed with aspergers but classic, it's artificial the distinction IMO, it's based entirely on how young someone is when they talk)

On criticism, I've noticed we can melt down when complimented (though I never had a violent meltdown in my life, I didn't know that was a thing until I met another one). I think it has to do with rigidity. New info has to be processed and turned into data in the brain, a compliment or criticism is information they have to consider to change about themselves. So rigidity is the problem here. We will rationalize with looking offended but the underlying cause is neurological than personality.

The one's who are better behaved like all the recent commentators possibly have learned to deal with the symptoms and can act like a more normal person when coming across information such as criticism and be reasonable. It's nice to see the reasonable posts as they reaffirm that people still have choice. I am not saying this to flatter you, but I imagine based on your calm reaction to the first 200 comments from angry autistics, that if you suddenly woke up with asperger's (or just autism, they call it autism now), you would be reasonable and self aware enough to control yourself. Even if it does not exist, the moral concept of free will is vital to controlling one's behavior.

Anonymous said...

same guy

Also you muse about whether they can help it or not and whether they can be held responsible for their behavior.
Well the difference between the reasonable comments and angry ones shows that to some degree, they can and they have the free will to choose what to think or believe.

I think 50% of the reason for the angry reactions are cultural. Autism pride and neurodiversity movements which I am against.
Most regular aspies in Singapore would probably just skip over your page or mope about it with no comment and return to their basement in my opinion. Simon Baron Cohen is who I think is behind neurodiversity, he claims autism is an super male brain which is crap and a gift which is crap. If they read this then of course they would attack you.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Ah, another reasonable Aspie! You're all forcing to revise my opinion.....almost.

I have no idea what I'd be like if I woke up with Aspergers, other than I'd be different. Would I be reasonable? I have no clue.

I agree with you, neurodiversity is ridiculous, and thinking of it as a gift is also ridiculous. There are a few people with Aspergers who've been able to use their focus to do something special. I'm not so sure that so many of the historical figures whom Aspies like to claim as one of their own were actually so, but some of them probably were, and they're shining examples.

Anonymous said...

Revise your opinion on us having zero choice on how to act though. An aspie starts off at a disadvantage in behavior but their is free will to choose otherwise which is the point I've been making. But don't revise yourself on the existence of bad qualities which are very real.

Also if you wanna, don't use the term "aspie" call them "autistic" which will piss them off lol. They refuse to admit they are just autistic and they must be something else that is different.

John Craig said...

Anon --
But with some of them it really seems as if they have very little choice. You may have a milder case for some unknown neurological reason. And you don't have meltdowns the same way. I don't get the impression that people who have meltdowns really have a lot of choice in the matter.

I've offended them enough with my comments on this post, no reason to use a wrong word. If you look elsewhere on this blog you'll see I'm pretty honest about racial stuff too, but I'd never use a pejorative term to refer to another race; merely speaking the truth is bad enough. Calling names is what liberals do. (Though I realize you're talking about something different, technically, Aspies are autistic, though I"m sure they like to differentiate themselves from those further along the spectrum.)

George Lincoln said...

Hey dude I am not sure if you didn't approve my message or it didn't go thru.
anyways I made a suggestion of strategy when attacking sociopaths(assuming you aren't already doing it) which is pretty similar to how you attacked the deranged scumbag adam lanza, instead of writing him off as this scary powerful boggieman, rather you exposed his sheer lameness and ineptitude, that way he wouldn't inspire any copy cat shootings. As with sociopath it is great that you label them as evil and con artist to raise awareness however I would argue it would be more effective is to point out their weak side which they are afraid of being exposed eg. their sheer shallow ,immature and fragile nature, under that mask they are pathetic as children, they don't commit these horrible acts because they are intelligent but rather because they essentially cheat in life order to compensate for their fragile ego we normal people can also do that but we refuse to sink so low, In essence they are like children, they get bored easily, they always have to have it their way, other people's needs don't matter, its always someone else fault and when finally confronted they become instant cry babies and claim they are mistreated. Theres nothing cool about sociopaths and really nothing that scary if you have enough common sense not to fall for their absurd artificial "charms". Imma be frank I am sick and tired of us aka the silent majority playing defense with these demonic children we should go on the attack and start showing them whose the adults its the only way to defeat them that way sociopathtic behaviors wouldn't seem all that "cool" and wouldn't inspire normal kids to fall victim to their cheap schemes. No offense but imo North American liberal culture often celebrates anti-social,narcissistic or the usual bad-boy behaviors.

Anonymous said...

They may not be able to control meltdowns but neither can a epileptic stop a seizure. Doesn't mean they can't practice meta cognition and say "I am having a meltdown because my central nervous system is overloaded, I will go into another room or find ways to warn myself next time to quickly leave, also all these symptoms and traits are because of a condition and I will treat it as a disease".

I did have something like meltdowns which are breaking into tears before I turned 16 but they stopped when I chose not to let myself get upset, never got violent but still had issues though. There are severely autistic people btw who can communicate with keyboards who have a lot more common sense and self awareness than the first 300 posts, if they can then many aspies could if we tried.

John Craig said...

George/Ahmad --
I got your message of November 11th, look above, it's posted, and I replied to it.

Yes, mocking them publicly -- especially the murderers - would be a good idea. The whole idea of that Adam Lanza post was to prevent copycat murders, but in general, letting them know how pathetic they are wouldn't be bad. The problem with individual sociopaths, though, is that the only thing you can do really, is, get away from them.

Anonymous said...

Same poster
I think Lanza had autism autism, not just aspie.

John Craig said...

Same poster --
I agree about Lanza. They also found out that he had child porn on his computer, so there was that element too. Shooting all those schoolchildren may have been partly jealousy at the fact that his mother had devoted her life to them, but also partly an expression of his frustrated sexuality somehow.

What George Lincoln (above) was referring to was a post i wrote about how the media should disparage and mock all mass shooters, in an effort to discourage copycat killings:

http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2012/12/if-media-reported-on-these-mass.html

Anonymous said...

It's hard to do that, they need to honor the dead and showing condolences to the grieving only looks like candy to them. And mocking them which would be a good idea may seem like making light of a serious incident. Maybe you should write a post on how to exactly do it to get the best result.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Yes, the victims need to be grieved for and shown respect. But I don't think that mocking the perpetrator as a weak, ineffectual, loser takes away from that. The killers and the victims are two different sets of people, who need to be described in different ways.

motormediitative54 said...

I enjoyed your post on Aspergers. It explained so much of my older brother that I just thought were quirks and sometimes hurtful ones at that.
Unsure if some,not all seemed to resemble borderline personality disorder.
All tough to parse out. I was somewhat surprised how people responded in such a strong manner.
Not clear on why they did besides either because they felt exposed or that you were inaccurate.
Fankly, I did not have the interest to read all of the comments.
If your assessment I correct, it has illuminated much of my brother's behavior and how I can understand it better and consider different ways to respond externally and internally going forward.
One last thing, where did you get this info, personal experience or reading?

John Craig said...

Motormeditative54 --
Thank you. Yes, it is all tough to parse out sometimes, and some of the traits overlap with other syndromes (for instance, being unable to take criticism is something they have in common with narcissistic personalities). But if you observe them for long enough -- and you'v obviously had plenty of opportunity to observe your older brother -- it becomes apparent after a while which syndrome it is.

And yeah, it's good to keep in mind that if it IS Aspergers, they haven choice but to be that way. It's not a matter of bad character (as is sociopathy), it's just something organic that they can't help.

All of the behaviors I described in this post are things I've witnessed firsthand. But I wouldn't have realized what they added up to unless I'd read up on Aspergers Syndrome.

George Lincoln said...

Actually I am not referring to the post on Nov 11. I had written a post on Nov. 17 similar in content with my latest one I guess it was a web issue. Also I forget to tell you that the post I made august 10 was my last time poking you for the lolz but my cover was blown hahaha. Hope you didn't take it seriously and just laughed. wont happen again though =)

back on topic, well you say that the best option for a sociopath victim or a would be victim is to just avoid them, even though I respect your opinion and that may be a sound advice to some people however I beg to differ. You see of course sociopaths are no aspies, they are considerably more able to shield their true selves (some might say even more so than nts) and be clever manipulators (mainly because they spent their whole life doing nothing else)...... but it only works on vulnerable people or people with an untrained eye. If we 'nice' normal people pay very close attention and as a society stop being lenient on them by painting them as victims of a medical condition or worse yet labeling them as invincible monsters, id say even on an individual basis a normal person would be able to fend off and even defeat the sociopath surprisingly easily, like I said previously they aren't any more intelligent, cunning, charming etc... than the average joe they are just inconsiderate for the unwritten rules which keeps society alive and which we would feel disgraced to break we can do everything the sociopath can but we dont want to undignify ourselves by sinking that low, if you styled your writing more in a way that reduces their power and less in a way that focuses on their evilness then more people would be armed to neutralize them trust me Ive met them personally by the dozens (my older brother is one) they are not that dangerous or scary as they appear, they only pick on people who are either too weak or people who are too empathetic, lenient or polite.

Since my country, Afghanistan has such horrible living conditions coupled with decades of war, sociopathic behaviors have become the norm as a tool for sheer survival almost as if we are a culture of sociopaths, As an afghan I have came across more of them on average than most nationalities and I speak from experience: they, in general are MUCH less powerful than they try to appear.

George Lincoln said...

So what do you think of my post 0.o

John Craig said...

George/Ahmad --
I'm not going to change my blog and my writing about sociopaths at your suggestion. The best advice to give anyone regarding sociopaths is (a) how to recognize them, and (b) just avoid them. It's not that they can't be "defeated," it's certainly possible to expose them. It's that they will never change, and will always be a destructive force against those who are around them. Their negative energy will never stop being negative, so why bother to expose yourself to that?

I agree with you that reducing their power and making them seem less invincible is a good thing, but the best way to do that is still just not to be a part of their reality distortion field. They will always see you as a potential victim no matter what.

George Lincoln said...

Well I wasn't too adamant about you changing your writing directory regarding sociopaths it was just a plight suggestion.
No one doubts they will always be negative and self centered but my point was not to try to medicate them but rather make people be more aware of their weaknesses so they will be able to not fall into their traps and are able to defend themselves against their abuse. saying to just avoid is a clever advice but unfortunately its not an option for many people already locked into some sort of relationship with them.

John Craig said...

George --
What you say is true; at some point I'll try to come up with some advice about how to deal with them if you are locked in.

Anonymous said...

I read two thirds to 80% of autistic individual have adhd or will develop it in adulthood.
It explains much. I think the real victims of neurodiversity are the low functioning autistic individuals. Many who cannot talk but can type have expressed anger and bitterness at being born that way.
http://bigstory.ap.org/article/34993946f50443cfbc98e7e2b9f0675b

Neurodiversity hurts aspies and non aspies in the end. I hate having ADHD and they now wanna include too! They will come for me.

I think it is the internet. If bipolar were discovered recently there would be a community defending their right to mania. And there were shortlived pride groups in the past. Neurodiversity needs to die quickly.

Josh

A little help needed said...

Hi John, I feel a bit desperate. I'm soon to be married to a beautiful person, who I love madly. However, there is one big issue, her best friend, it's a guy who is obsessed with her, nothing ever happened between them,in fact, he drives her crazy and she doesn't like to be near him.
When she was a teenager he was her mentor in BDSM, which she created a lot of problems from BDSM, through BDSM she married a narcissist who almost destroyed her.
Since I have known her, her friend has been an issue, I feel he has tried to come between us and still tries. Maybe I'm wrong, but after my research I found that narcissistic behaviour and BDSM can be linked, however, aspergers syndrome and BDSM don't really work due to the lacking of understanding a person's needs,pain,fetishism etc. Her friend was a dominant, so he was the controlling person in the couple (she never did BDSM with him).
He also dabbled in chaos magic, it's said that it's like black magic. He has pictures of my fiancee when she was very young and before she knew him. He does sexual things on line with men who think he's a woman, he cross dresses, if he messages her and she doesn't reply, he will keep doing it and if he can't get her on Facebook, he will try some other way. I feel he has a control over her, she defends him in every way, but the other day I she seen that I was researching Aspergers and I wanted her to see it,she read the symptoms and said that's like my friend. She's an activist for domestic abuse and knows what narcissistic behaviour is,so I feel she's in denial of what her friend has, I think it's NPD. She didn't know about aspergers syndrome, so what else could she have thought her friend has since she recognised the symptoms of Aspergers syndrome?
I could see very soon after getting to know her friend that I thought he was an narcissist. I'm concerned, I can see how he manipulates her and I dare not say that.
Because of her previous marriage and her abusive ex, she suffers from ptsd, he knows that and I think he plays on her fears.
She knows that I have some connections with the police, I made some inquires and I was told that he spent a year in prison and she doesn't know that and I never told her. Her family and friends don't understand why she has contact with him. She wants him at our wedding, in fact, she wanted him as her bridesmaid/man.
Do you think I'm justified in my analysis of him? am I right to be concerned? Does it sound like aspergers syndrome or narcissistic personality disorder?
I know you can't diagnose so easily on line, but just go by what I'm saying.
I hope you can help me, I'm very confused and I don't have anyone else to talk to as I'm in a foreign country after leaving my homeland to be with her. I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks

John Craig said...

A little help needed --
I've read your letter a couple times, but I can't come up with a diagnosis. I'm sorry. This guy could be any number of things. The only thing you can be sure of is that he's bad news, especially for you, since he obviously wants to keep you from marrying your fiancee, since he enjoys his relationship with her, and also his power over her, and you're going to take her away from him to some extent. Your fiancee thinks he has Aspergers, but she seems to be blind to his faults, so in a sense that's putting a benign interpretation on his more selfish qualities. (He can't help it!) You see him as narcissistic, which could well be true; he thinks the world revolves around him. (Aspies can be that way too, they tend to need to get their way.)

There's a further possibility, that he's a sociopath, which would be really bad news. The fact that he spent a year in jail and your fiancee had no idea of that, the fact that he poses as a woman on line to fool men (which might be classified as "sport lying"), the fact that he seems to need to exert control over others, ballpoint in that direction.

Another two possibilities you might want to consider: A, that in fact your fiancee did have some sort of physical relationship with him but just doesn't want you to know about it. (I don't think that's likely, but you have to realize that's possibility.) And B, and this would negate the possibility i just mentioned, that this guy is gay, but won't admit it. (The fact that he cross dresses certainly lends support to that hypothesis, and the fact that he likes to lead men on online undoubtedly ha a sexual element to it too.)

Anyway, I'm sorry, but based on what you've told me, I can't give you a diagnosis. All I can do is mention possibilities for you to be aware of. Whatever he is, I agree that he's bad news, and if he's in fact a sociopath, then he's really trouble.

Anonymous said...

Holy shit, I've just had one hell of an epiphany - radical feminists are Aspies. I've been trying to understand the deranged, obsessive, utterly humourless, furious and empathy-devoid minds of radfems for years (think the nutters who blog on Radfem Hub). Nothing is ever their fault - anything bad that ever happened in their lives is the fault of men or "handmaidens of the patriarchy", AKA normal women. They love portraying themselves as victims and, if they can't find any real examples of how they're "oppressed", they'll invent some - or go on about how women were historically oppressed, as though that means sympathy ought to extend to them.

I've not once seen a radfem apologise or admit fault. Try arguing with them and you'll end up going around in circles; they have their unshakable, baseless beliefs and that's that. They are unable to even entertain the opposite viewpoint, let alone accept it. They project, believing all women think the same as them and yet display cognitive dissonance by loathing women who don't. No matter how nasty the woman or how gentle the man, a radfem will always defend the former. One commentator described this as an almost-religious belief in men being the absolute evil and women the absolute good, like the Original Sin.

Their mental gymnastics are impressive: they'll frequently hold two conflicting views simultaneously, i.e. "biology is not destiny" and "male testosterone poisoning". They misinterpret new concepts a lot. Radfem arguments are peppered with straw men and red herrings. They are obsessed with their ideology: watch their Twitter feeds and it's clear they think about it from the moment they wake up to the moment they sleep. Radfems don't seem to have any fun; I can't see them playing sports or having similar hobbies (no wonder the only emotion they experience is anger). The only 'friends' they seem to have are other radfems, and those are just online.

Basically, they're abject losers. Re-reading this has just made me realise that many must have Asperger's.

- Gethin

John Craig said...

Gethin --
That's a great description of the radical feminist mindset, and belief system, and I think you're right that a lot of them ARE Aspies. But I think a lot of them are simply narcissistic personalities as well, and also borderline personalities (which you described so well recently in a comment on another post). A narcissistic personality is capable of holding self-servingly conflicting views as well, and will tend to never admit they're wrong, and will see only the good in their side and the bad in another. That said, I actually knew one radical feminist who WAS an Aspie who only saw the good in women and the bad in men.

That's a really good insight though. The humorlessness is more Aspie than narcissist, you're right about that, I've known narcissists with decent senses of humor. And yes, their obsessiveness, and the rigidity of their views, both scream Aspergers. And the conflicting beliefs they'll hold simultaneously require a certain hypocrisy, which both Aspies and narcissists can show.

I like your description of the radical feminists so much I think I'll use it as a post, if you don't mind.

CDTim said...

Hey John,

I found this article because of your article on sociopathy. I can sympathize with your experience, since we spergs are a difficult lot (autocorrect almost made me type 'different circuit' what a coincidence!).

You'll find that many of us find ways around the difficulties. Sometimes
I get the idea that empathy, theory of mind, fluid and dynamic thinking, are not
So much things we lack, as things we simply develop later than most. have you kept up with the ones you know long enough to see if they ever bloomed in these ways?

In my case, it could be that I was forced to develop these things. Either that, or my obsessive interests led me to develop them. Basically, obsession with science and literature led me to religion led me to esoterism led me to psychology & philosophy.

Speaking of which, have you ever come across spergs who have not just one obsession, but a constellation of related ones (related in their own minds anyway)?

I understand this is an old article you'd probably rather leave in the past, but I just thought I'd run this all by you while
It's fresh on my mind.

John Craig said...

CDTim --
Honestly, it hasn't been my experience that Aspies gain empathy and fluid thinking later on in life. That's not to say it doesn't happen, just that I haven't seen it.

A constellation of related obsessions? I actually think a lot of people have that, though it's questionable whether these are really separate obsessions. I'm interested, probably to the point of obsession, with both competitive swimming and track, which are similar sports. I'm interested in both Aspergers Syndrome and sociopathy, both of which go under the heading of psychology. I'm interested in both evolution and race, and those two are related as well.

As far as the Aspies I've known, do they have multiple related obsessions? It's hard to answer that question, since it sort of boils down to what you consider related. I'd say yes, but I don't think it's a particularly Aspie-like trait. For instance, I know an Aspie who's obsessed with both food and health, and how food affects health, but a lot of people seem to share that interest.

Anonymous said...

Sure, feel free to use my description of radfems. I'm glad you think it's accurate.

- Gethin

John Craig said...

Gethin --
Thank you, will do.

A little help needed said...

A little help needed
Hi John, thanks for your words, it really did help. You replied to my letter dated 9th of December 2016. My fiancees friend has now revealed his true self. He is a sex offender, amongst other serious things. She has now blocked him from our lives, he was phonine the house a few times and she dealt with him. It went to the extent that during the night while I was asleep and nobody else, but my fiancee in the room,I was punched in the face. My face swelled up and we knew he did some type of magic, so my fiancee called him and he admitted to it. A few months ago I never would have believed this could happen, we were both in shock,my cheek had swelled up. Anyway, thanks for your words, they really helped make things clearer to my fiancee.

John Craig said...

A little help needed --
Just reread our earlier correspondence (and see I had a couple of typos, e.g. "ballpoint" was supposed to be "all point." Sure, glad to help, though all I said was that he was bad news and I was unsure what he was. He did do several things that resonated of sociopathy. I'm not sure what you mean by "magic" -- are you saying that he snuck into your room somehow while you were asleep and punched you then? Anyway, I'm glad things worked out for you, you're definitely better off without this guy in your lives.

plumtious said...

I have Aspergers and some of your (blogger's) very long post is spot on.
But most of it is complete and utter laughable, offensive rubbish.
What the f gives you the authority to spout on and on about something you clearly know little about?

plumtious said...

Reading through some of these comments - 'nothing is ever their fault'?????
*falls over dying from laughter*
I have Aspergers and it's the exact opposite, excrutiatingly so!
What utter fkg knobheads, seriously!

John Craig said...

Plumtious --
Long experience with people like you.

Lesley said...

How harmful you are to the Aspergers community to write the way you have your lack of kindness and sensitivity is apalling to the point of nausea.
Its people like you who create negative tensions, none of this is needed, I am glad people have spoken out against your blog, well done those and for the others maybe take a spoon full of compassion and kindness.

Unknown said...

I myself am an Aspie, and I freely admit that a lot of those descriptions fit me to a T.

I've become aware that I have a gigantic ego, so I do my best to squash it down to a more regular level. People say I'm too hard on myself, I know that if I didn't bash myself, I'd become insufferable... Better that *I* am miserable, than everyone *ELSE* is!

Thank you for a beautiful article, and I hope I wrote this comment correctly.

John Craig said...

Jon Corbett --
Thank you. I actually don't think that Aspies have gigantic egos. They might SEEM to, to the uninitiated, since what they have in common with narcissistic personalities is an inability to admit they were wrong and a hard time saying they're sorry. But it's coming from a different place than it does with narcissists. The Aspies I've known don't walk around with their chests puffed up thinking about how great they are, the way narcissists do; it's a completely different mindset. A lot of them just want to blend in. It's essentially brittleness, not an insufferable ego, that keeps them from admitting fault.

I wouldn't describe the post as "beautiful," it was merely --- for me -- an opportunity to vent, and also to let people know that if they know someone with those behavior patterns, it's an actual syndrome they might not be familiar with.

Anonymous said...

Your blog on Aspies is insightful. Apparently I have been living with one. A nurse neighbor thought I knew when she started talking about my relationship with my Aspie, a light bulb moment for me( sorry if some don't know what that means). Now that I understand I can cope. I also understand why he clings to me as his filter to the world. It is my thought that because Apsies have a hard time determining instruction or insight vs. criticism you have been attacked. You described a full range of behaviors. I think many assumed that ALL Aspies exhibit all of them. I have enjoyed your articles.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you. yes, I've had that experience too, offering a suggestion and having the Aspie explode as if I'd questioned her very existence. And, as you've seen here, there've been an awful lot of Aspies who haven't liked this post.

Anonymous said...

I've been looking online for forever wondering what my sister has, she's so intelligent but she just always seemed off and never really had remorse or anything. It hurt because when I'd cry she just acted like it she didn't understand or when I'd say I'm sorry or I love her she never really said it back. When I found out she had aspergers I cried so hard. No matter how much my sister agitates me I love her and all I wish is that she'll have a normal life and hopefully one day be able to show her emotions and understand them. That's all anyone can really hope, it hurts knowing but it's better to help her than act like she's totally fine. All I'm glad about is now I know she is not a sociopath and that's all I really needed to know, I just want her to live a good life.

John Craig said...

Anon --
You're definitely better off with a sister with Aspergers than you would have been with a sociopath for a sister. Aspies are just, as you say, "off," which is infinitely preferable to "evil," which is what sociopaths are.

Anonymous said...

Stumbled upon this blog... very enlightening reading the comments section. I have an Aspie son, guess they call it autism spectrum disorder now... I also have, IMHO, an Aspie wife... no formal diagnosis, nor will one ever come. When we go to professionals, they always ask, "is there someone with it in the family?"... I brought it up to her that she might have it ONE time, and that her Dad even might have it, and she was pissed and she responded that she thinks I have it (LOL).

I have read that female Aspies tend to integrate into society better... they learn the tricks to fit in more readily than males. This would be true for the social version of my wife... but at home she seems to almost be a different person. Here are my wife's "symptoms" for reference:

1. Takes no blame
2. Never cries
3. Loves animals more than people as evidenced by her own admission, and her actions (we have a veritable zoo at our house, she's obsessed with collecting them)
4. Extremely repetitive
5. Frequently uses the wrong words in a sentence... that almost sound correct
6. Terrible grammar
7. Horrible math skills
8. Does not get sarcasm... which sucks because I am a sarcastic bastard.
9. Is flustered to the extreme with clutter... anything laying on the kitchen counter that doesn't belong there can infuriate her
10. Tells the same anecdotal stories over and over, and expects full attention
11. no ability to empathize with me or our son
12. cannot fathom basic logical concepts, she just expects things to work the way she expects them, in spite of logic.
13. had a lonely childhood, trouble making friends, ended up hanging with the foreign exchange students... other outcasts...
14. no concept of money matters, what things cost, budgeting, etc... thinks if you want something, just buy it.
15. takes any scrutiny as intense criticism, like she might say, "how was dinner?" and I might say, "ok, but I wouldn't want to eat it again if I had a choice," and her response is, "then you can make your own damn dinner from now on."
16. lack of self awareness, or self reflection... she always sees issues with people as their problem... this has created a huge rift between her and her son, she has stated that she wouldn't mind just sending him away because he doesn't make any sense to her and just pisses her off (on purpose), he has stated that he hates her and wouldn't mind if she went away.
17. Uncoordinated
18. Says inappropriate things in public. On more than one occasion she has said private comments that I made to her to a friend or relative right in front of everyone...

My son, while difficult, is generally happy-go-lucky... he whines a lot, has a lot of bad habits and behavior, is very defiant at times, but generally is a good kid... I would say he is an order of magnitude easier than my wife.

Look, I realize there is a "spectrum" of disorders out there... I personally think my wife is on the Aspie side... do you agree? Funny that I have brought this up to several counselors with their fancy community college degrees (sarcasm), and they are very dismissive, like "I am the professional, there is no way you could make that diagnosis on your own, you should focus on yourself." Pisses me off... one reason I avoid talking to "professionals." Anyone else have that experience?

Wondering if there is anyone else out there in a similar situation as mine. I have nearly walked out my wife several times... mainly for the well-being of my son... but I do love my wife and feel almost like she would be hopeless without me. I have suffered mentally and physically from the stress of my household... it is tough keeping it together some days, it is quite literally like we live the same stressful day over and over again, same arguments, same discussions, same issues.





John Craig said...

Anon --
Your wife is definitely an Aspie. Ironically, Aspies are often the last people to consider that they might be Aspies.

And I couldn't agree with you more about professionals, they are very territorial, and very much into credentialism. They feel threatened when any "amateur" intrudes on their territory, even if the amateur knows much more than them about a particular syndrome. (There's no substitute for firsthand experience, as opposed to just learning something out of a book.)

Do me a favor, send me your email address via a comment. I promise not to publish it, I have a few things to tell you privately that I can't say publicly (my name is on this blog).

John Craig said...

Anon --
PS -- This is what I had to say on the subject of psychologists and psychiatrists wanting to preserve their own fiefdoms:

http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2016/12/analysis-of-famous-person-from-distance.html

Anonymous said...

From an aspie(please try not to let your view of what I say be clouded by my condition, just reply to the contents of what I say for what they are. I also have ADHD so my post will be incoherent and jumbled, sorry about that, also If I display any lack of self awareness. I am sorry about that, please correct me. I also won't focus as much on the angry aspies as I attack and debate plenty of them elsewhere on the internet. And I doubt they are still lingering that much around here as your more recent posts haven't been attacked as often.)

This is along reply to Michael D.'s comment and for you John and for many other posters who have replied with anger towards ASD people.

(I went and read Hans Asperger's paper. The kid he described seemed more fullblown autistic, chewing on pencils, drooling, banging blocks, and not forming sentences correctly. What I also got was he mistakenly implied that some of their physical symptoms such as stimming and clumsiness were a result of their personality making them who they were unlike Leo Kanner who believed there was a neurological physical basis)

I also understand your mention of "angry disgust", but try to think why you would direct it here. (To Michael)

Many of these posters here who have met someone with ASD are quite harsh, I think one poster said "soul sucking monster". And the general gist was they are "Toxic" like narcissists and psychopaths. The angry posts by aspies and the angry posts by some of the people who have met them both are very judgemental and bigoted, and very unreasonable too. I wonder why you (John) seem more agreeable even though there is ironic lack of empathy and similar faults.
(I sometimes get bugged by double standards, but maybe there is a pragmatic reason, I may be ignorant) The one's by the angry aspies don't bother me as much because they are just too lame, I would easily know what to say if I had to debate them.

Honestly, the posts by some of the other's are more malicious than the posts by some of the angry aspies. The former is towards a group, the latter is towards an individual (but some of them seem to hate neurotypicals, but in a condescending way like old fashioned 1950s racism or the difference between condescending misogyny vs the hot angry by some radfems, like "I think women are easy and stupid, I love having plenty of them around me" vs "I would never touch a man, they are scum and all disgusting pigs" I see the latter vibe's in those posts by the non-autistics)

It is odd to me people are far less vindictive, angry, and spiteful towards people with other disorders even when they may have more severe symptoms. I have not seen a single forum nor internet posts even comparing them to sociopaths. I did see one on a schizophrenic spouse forum, she was helping her husband's showering him, feeding him, the patient was almost cut off from other and had pretty much no emotional reciprocity or awareness of others at all, the few words were incoherent babbling or paranoid accusations. But she even felt sorry for him and had no pent up anger or hatred for an entire group of people with a disorder. I have also seen what happens with families where a person has alzheimers, they become fulltime caretakers, but little to no resentment or bigotry. But I kinda know why so it's not so odd, and it was a mess created by a group called neurodiversity and the relative newness of the disorder.

(To be continued)

Anonymous said...

Continued:
I think everyone needs to understand that what has happened and why this is happening. ASD is newly recognized so people do not know how to handle it well and and feel more indifferent when they know it is a disorder and not who a person is inside. ("He is having an angry meltdown? What a brat" vs "He is having an angry psychotic/senile/drug influenced episode? Oh he is just not right in the head"). It would help if the autistic person stated that meltdowns are a symptom and state they wish they wouldn't have them and hate them instead of blaming others (and they can if they made an effort, famous autistic person Temple Grandin has written about how they are still unacceptable and how a person needs to learn to deal with them with techniques). There is a lack of recognition of it being a disorder so people with the condition don't think there is anything wrong with themselves. It can be a relief to hear someone say "I suffer from this terrible illness" than "I am special because of it". And they are capable of doing it. Other disorders can also make a person unaware they have a problem but many of them still manage to believe they have something wrong, it helps people TELL them and also add that they don't have to be their disorder. When a person hate's their disorder they will try to make an effort and fight their symptoms and admit they have them. Then you realize it is not their character but their illness. Also people do not get recognition if they have to deal with a spouse with the disorder. "My wife is manic bipolar" "Okay that is an illness" "My wife is autistic" "How dare you, autism is a gift, there is nothing wrong with her!". This leads to pent up resentment which I will get to later.

Also everyone, try to recognize it is easy when dealing with a difficult case that you start to associate and add on more to it or see things that aren't there. On the spouse forums and the comments here, I noticed they begin to add on more, it goes from being in a relationship is traumatic (true, being married to a mentally ill person is not good) to also saying (or just implying) autistic people are scum, that they are dangerous, that every single one is a monster or demon, autistic shooters and violence are unique numerous and a gigantic public threat, a famous evil person must have been an aspie, they must have existed throughout history and been responsible for many horrible things, if I don't like someone or they are jerks they must be an aspie, autistic people are incapable of feelings and are worthless shells. It goes from a disability making it hard to be around someone, (which is common for many disorders), to this. Too much black and white thinking happens. In the long run autism isn't so unique, it is just one of many disorders, there is a much higher rate than other disorders now though and that may be because of toxic waste and pollution increasing it. That also be responsible for the increase in autistic shooters. Looking at statistics per population rather than number of cases and you find the chance of autistic violence per person is in the normal range for a person with a mental disorder. (I think autism it was 8% chance of violence while schizophrenia it is 9-10%, but the biggest cause of mass violence I think isn't mental illness but ideological fanaticism)

(To be continued)

Anonymous said...

Continued:

I understand that this comes from pent up feelings. Many have here have been hurt, have received no recognition for what has happened, have been abused, or told over and over everything is perfect when it is not. You have been with an abusive person who hurt you. Autism does make a person less good to be around. I do not say that is untrue, just that it is not so unique in the long run since disorders cause that and singling out autistic people is missing the whole picture that mental disorders are all bad.

And it is common to say I read now "So what if they don't mean it? They are sows misery by the bumbling foolishness and naivity, it doesn't matter. There is no reason why it isn't alright to hate, shun, and judge them. Sociopaths can't help it either! So why should we do anything different?"

But does the double standard ever occur that the same logic could be used for other disorders or addicts? But not a peep. But it is not their fault for arriving to that idea. (I'll get to that).

There is the fundamental attribution fallacy. How some aspies behave may be from a lack of intervention, aspie supremacists spreading their ideology, and people not telling them there is something wrong and that their symptoms are not who they have to be. That they are suffering from a problem and wouldn't it be great to not suffer from it, if they were convinced of that, it would make them behave better by recognizing the symptoms and trying to fight them. The neurodiversity movement has added a morality component to it, and both sides are falling for it. What both sides of this conflict have in common is that a person must be their illness if it is autism. (but not other disorders for some reason. Nobody here sees the double standard. So if a person with frontal lobe dementia or schizoaffective disorder is absolute trouble to deal with, why isn't anyone ranting about them on the internet? Becuase nobody has been provoked by people who say otherwise, who say that they aren't disorders, and that the people with the disorders haven't been convinced to see themselves as sufferers rather than supermen.)

There is also one note: the word empathy. There are too many connonantations and when people now see that lack of empathy is a symptoms of ASD, they image narcissm or sociopathy. But the other two "lack empathy" in the more metaphorical or literary sense. Plenty of disorders like alzheimers, schizophrenia, schizoaffective, long term alcohol use to the brain, head injury, and more also have the clinical lack of empathy. But not a peep there either. Because nobody argues about it and thus people won't dig deeper and associate that symptom since they don't believe there is a character component.

This is all one gigantic mess. I just wish someone, anyone, would take a good look without letting their biases cloud their ideas, and wonder why this is the way it is instead of their black and white view. Everyone has been played by neurodiversity, poor resources, and a few "internet experts".
I see less insight or common sense from everywhere as time goes on.
There may not be any post by you about this had ASD not been made so political or mediacized (I can't think of a word, I have trouble searching for words, the idea comes but it gets jumbled.).

What do you think John? (And everyone else?)

John Craig said...

Anon --
Yes, there is a fair amount of venting going on here on the part of neurotypicals. And I'll admit my original post was made partly to let others know what they're dealing with when they run across that type of personality, but also to vent.

I don't think people think that Aspies are "morally" wrong in the way that narcissists and especially sociopaths are. And if you look roundly blog, you'll see that I've written far, far more about sociopathy than I have about Aspergers. I've pointed out (somewhere on this blog, can't remember exactly where at the moment) that Aspies are in many ways the opposite of sociopaths. And I said on this post that Aspies are not bad people. (they are less manipulative and conniving than most.) They are, however, incredibly annoying, if you're forced to deal with them over an extended period of time. And even if they can't help it, they are usually hypocrites to boot.

BTW, whenI wrote this post, I didn't even know about how Aspergers had been politicized, or the neurodiversity movement.

Anonymous said...

Some of the posters here and over the internet who vent would disagree with you. There is a lot more contempt and disgust. They clearly do view it differently and with a bias compared to other disorders and they do believe there is something morally wrong, or if not they excuse it with "sociopaths can't help it either, so what's the difference".

There is certainly a double standard with how these posters view ASD compared to other disorders. Your post wasn't like theirs. There are no websites with nearly as much vitriol for other conditions. This situation is unique, and is a byproduct of decades (yes it goes back to the 80s) of politicization. You cannot help but notice those websites against ASD people have a much much different tone than websites for other disorders. It's very clear that they are very biased and have a passive aggressive tone on the surface, when you dig deeper it becomes actually hateful (among other things).

That was the point I wanted to make.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Honestly, I haven't been to the other websites so have no opinion about them. The focus of this blog is far more on sociopaths than on Aspergers. (Take a look around, you'll see what I mean.) I'm sure what you say about the vitriol is true.

I would disagree, though, when it comes to sociopathy. I've been to several websites which focus on sociopaths and there's no heritability displayed toward them. The tone may be one of horrified fascination and outraged disapproval rather than exasperation, but I'm sure it no less negative overall.

Anonymous said...

Compare:
https://thealzheimerspouse.com/
http://www.brain-injury-law-center.com/latest-news/relationships-after-traumatic-brain-injury/
http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/schizophrenia-discussions/general-support/10709090-wife-of-schizophrenic-husband

A lot more conflicted feelings. Less anger or vindictiveness towards their spouse.

Now compare:
http://heartlessaspergers.com/aspergers-partners-speak/

Notice the different in tone?

BUT it is not their fault! It is the fault of what has happened in the USA right now due to mediacization and lack of recognition of autism being a disorder to begin with. This is what happens with the internet, ideas spread like cancer. The way the social world is structured gets screwed up.

In the end, both autistic/aspies and neurotypicals are getting hurt by this meme.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme)

Anonymous said...

You can also see the same vitriol and resentment in the replies in this post that is not found with people towards other disorders. Does anyone compare the other disorders to sociopathy/narcissm or imply they are similar?

But like I said, this is the result of decades of screwing up in our culture by certain forces.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I just took a look at the heartlessaspergbers.com website, and read about 40 of the testimonials from people who'd been married to Aspies. Yes, they express some vitriol, but there's also just exasperation, loneliness, frustration, and the hard won realization that they are in many cases trying to deal with someone who is impossible. Are they not supposed to vent their frustration? Are they not supposed to be honest about how they feel? I completely sympathized with them.

John Craig said...

PS -- I don't think those spouses of Aspergers came by their attitudes by the politicization of Aspergers; they came by them from years of living with an Aspie.

As far as the attitude toward sociopaths, trust me, it's not a positive one. People who've been screwed over by sociopaths almost to a person despise them. But, if you want to be philosophical about it, since sociopaths can't help their own sociopathy (even if they can control individual actions), perhaps the reigning attitude toward them ought to be more sympathetic, too. (It wasn't their fault they were unloved or even abused as kids.)

Anonymous said...

I am sorry but. you have missed my poimt. Look at the forum posts by the link to the schizophrenic spouses and why do you not see any of the same vitriol? Look at mamy forums of people who have to deal with incredibal trauma from beimg in a relationship with seone with another disorder. Their attitude is comepletely different. Its harder to be sympathetic when ypu see far less of the vitriol, hate, vindictiveness, implied prejudice over there, and more because it implies those feelings are deliberate to just asperger syndrome. If people were just like this with anyone who caused trauma like alcoholics, schizophrenics, alzheimers, and brain damaged people, i would feel so confused.

And sorry to say, but ypu jumped right into sociopathic comparison about sympathy and resentment to justify it when many other disorders are right there to be compared witj instead. It gets irritating honestly when autism keeps getting compared over and over to sociopathy or at least classified as being part of the same web of problems. ASD is a mental illness and almost all scientific and behavioral comparison for research will compare it to conditions that i habe mentioned above . IIm not sarcastic wjen i ask: did you look at the three links i compared with that heartless asperger site?

Anonymous said...

Also I wasnt comparing ASD to socipathy and implying the spouses of sociopatjs somehow have a better attitude. I poonted out jobody is colparing other disorders like alzheimers, alcoholism, schizoaffective, schizophrenia, ot brain injury to them at all nor making any sites where spouses can rant about them. And i didnt say politicizatoon is causing the trauma itself. Im saying it is the reason why nobody is ranting about having to be with someone with another disordet. then why havent you heard anything from spouses of other disorders? Are they the abnormal ones in being not full of anger, resentment, gradual spreading of prejudice to everyone with the disordet, prejudice, and frustration? When was the last time you heard someone calling someone with the other disorders i listed toxic or horrible? Making entire websites for them? Maybe they could be the abnormal omes.

John Craig said...

Anon --
There's no question, when people have Alzheimers and schizophrenia and brain injury, those around them have much more sympathy than they generally do for Aspergers. And I agree that Aspergers, and autism in general, are disorders that can't be helped.

Perhaps it's that with those other three, the people around them have seen them when they didn't have those conditions, and therefore it's easier to see them as having been brought low by fate, rather than just having a difficult personality. With Aspergers, the person has always been that way, and it's easy to see them as just being difficult. Plus, as you've pointed out, there's now al t is politicization of the disease with the neurodiversity movement, which makes people evenness sympathetic.

I've always been much more sympathetic to people who'll admit there's a problem and even apologize for it ahead of time, as you did at the beginning of your first comment of 7:33AM this morning.

Anonymous said...

I'll elaborate on the politicization.

It prevents validation for beliefs, people often tell people who are relationships with autistic people that they are nuts because autism must be some gift. No relief. This adds to the anger. Hearing someone tell you the person you are with, especially by a professional, is disabled will shape your view a bit. Everyone knows you are with a mental case. You will feel more secure and less afraid knowing people have your back and will provide help when needed. This is already done with other disorders.

Two, the other disorders are not romanticized, those with the other ones are taught by society to hate their disorder and will admit they have a problem because of that. That provides relief to hear that at least your spouse or person in contact with believes they struggles with it. Would you rather hear "I suffer from this disorder and it makes me act this way which only cause me pain" or "This is a great thing I have, how dare you judge me!" The former is an excuse ( but to a degree it is technically true) blaming it on the autism, but is better on the ears than the latter.

Three. There are much more services available such as intensive therapy for adults, care, and intervention for other disorders. Nobody will bat an eye if the mental health professional jump in and wrest the situation if it gets too hot for them. There are also laws on having to take medication even against their will for them. There is no such law for autism disorders. I knew an aspie who refused to take medication, the same medication that calmed me down and made me better to be around, and I also worked on my behavior after that. One classmate once said to me "You've improved a lot, let's hang out". They can make a huge difference in tolerating being around us.

Continued: (Sorry for the aspie monologue)

Anonymous said...

Continued:

Four. Yes the late onset may influence their thinking. But in the long run, the effects are the same on the spouse. I read the post by Michael saying we can judge others by their behaviours, this cuts both ways. The comparison with sociopaths not being able to help it also can be used to argue it doesn't matter what age a person gets their disease, they still can be toxic. It is something for everyone to think about, especially the person with the disorder. And this is related to the difference between sociopathy and the other conditions.

Five. Also Autism isn't always from birth, a large majority, it can set in at the age of 3, this may seem insignificant but if this knowledge were more widespread it may slightly influence public thinking, and the thinking of many autistics. Some people who do have faint memories of before they were 3 with autism do wish they could go back to that time. We need to elaborate on that, use it in cognitive behavioural therapy to encourage a personal distate for symptoms to encourage wresting them as much as possible. Politicization as an ideology binds it to their identity preventing this potential route.

Six. The difference between sociopathy/narcissism and other disorders that is biggest to me is the fact sociopaths love being sociopaths, they do not suffer, they cannot recognize their defects as being bad, they revel in them nor feel pain, while many people with autism and other disorders if taught can hate them in a good way which provide nice satisfaction to the other person who hears it knowing the aspie agrees the way they act sucks. This has been hindered by politicization.

Seven. Politicization may not be the cause of the relationship problems and anger to begin with, but it is the cause of more resentment and anger existing in other areas that doesn't have to. People have a right to feel angry. But it is not a pleasant feeling and we should find ways to relieve it for the well-being of the person stuck in the relationship. Were politicization out things would just be better than it currently is right now for everyone, not good or perfect but not as bad. That situation is worth existing. Also the resentment and vitriol may still be there but with relief it won't hurt so much for them on the inside.
and the discussion will stop at relationships and autism. The thing about those sites is that they have begun to spill over from talking about relationships to talking about all autistic people.

These sites I've noticed started talk about about autistic people in general (even if some of them are too disabled to be in relationships and must be in group homes, why are they part of the discussion?), how they have no emotions and are all robots. It's not so simple. I have seen higher functioning autistic people with absolutely no depth and insight yet have seen people with lower functioning autism who are quite creative and affectionate. Some small parts a few of the articles do get a bit frivolous such as how their gait can be frightening to onlookers. That can be true. Politicization drags the situation into an unrelated fields outside of relationships. It may not be my place to judge but I think it's all starting to get too off topic, and its harder for progress to be made if you stray from the main topic. Politicization is a web that lets a bunch of things get tangled up together meaning it gets harder to work on and fix one thing.

To add:
I did read some of the heartless asperger website creator's replies to comments on her site. I found out she is actually very compassionate towards autistic/asperger people and doesn't hate them at all. What I got from that is maybe her intention is her site is intented to act as a warning and sometimes being very explicit and using absolutes is necessary to get a message across, which a person after reading can combine with their experiences to form their own judgement which is more nuanced and works for them.

John Craig said...

Anon --
No problem at all on the monologue, you (and anyone else) are welcome to say whatever you please here (as long as it's on topic).

But you've assigned a fair amount of homework today, so please don't expect me to keep responding in detail.

Anonymous said...

Last post:

You did mention the later onset of the other disorders. But I wonder how that would affect the children who may have grown up with most of their life affected by a parent whose only memory they have of is when they became mentally ill or dysfunctional.

http://www.salon.com/2011/01/12/schizophrenic_mother_tucson_reaction_open2011/
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/living-with-an-alcoholic-parent-2-1972908-Mar2015/

This gave a me a good idea. It seems middle of the road between sympathy and resentment. They have the knowledge it wasn't always this way from their other parent but all they remember is the person with the disorder. For alcoholism, it seems commonly accepted it is bad that they have enough validation and confirmation of their beliefs that they don't feel a need to comment any further and have some breathing room to allow for less resentment or vitriol. But if a person is genetically predispositioned for another one of those disorders, that even raises more questions on how society views things.

But all I know now it is so important ASD must be put back in the hands of experts away from neurodiversity. It can make everyone feel more relief inside of what they go through. Everyone.

Also interesting is the first article received zero comments. No arguments from either side, zero.

Well that is all. Thanks for listening and replying. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Anonymous said...

I am back again to write something again. These are just some thoughts I had after the discussion we had.

I think there is a huge role of bias. I am biased, you are biased, everyone here is biased.
I want to also ask. When I first posted the comparison between the heartless asperger testimonals and the other three sites to compare, did you already get my point but needed to make another point? Or did you not get what I mean't yet? I am not aware of context that well, I just would like some feedback about that. I also want to say I was a bit frustrated when you compared sociopathy again for the question of sympathy or whether they can help it or not. But was that just an added opinion or did you misunderstand what I tried to say? Can you help clear it up? And I reiterate nobody compares the other disorders to sociopathy ever.

Also I think it could be argued that the ones who are in relationships with other disorders then are biased. If you spend twenty years with someone with schizophrenia or brain damage or alcoholism yet feel no need to rant nor look at people with those conditions with contempt or disgust just because it set on late, is it really as simple as that?

That is why I felt there was a bias against people with ASD, yes they cause pain and trauma in their relationships. But does a mere difference of when it happened somehow make all the pain and trauma from other relationships not affect a person as much? It just can't seem to be that simple. (But it could be).

The argument used repeatedly that sociopaths can't help their own behaviour so there is no need to not feel the resentment and vitriol against a person with ASD could be used with the other disorders. So what if they weren't born with it or didn't get it early, the effects are the same on the person they are with, just judge them by their actions one could say.

I just feel surprised nobody has ever brought that up in their minds. And I feel you also let some biases cloud your attitude towards aspies. Judge by behavior yet don't judge by behaviour for other disorders.

The only explanation I could think of is that somehow something is only enraging the spouses of the people with ASD further because I thought the spouses of people with other disorders who are handling so different even if their life is filled with an equal or sometimes more amount of pain is the norm, and the ASD spouses have something added onto it to make the anger more. But the spouses of a schizophrenic or early onset dementia person may be the biased one then. Could a simple fact of when it happened just really make decades of resentment and anger not exist at all? Are humans that susceptible and biased?

And it is clear that it never just stopped at the relationships with them, the people who have been in relationships have also vented about aspies in general even if some don't get in relationships. It's like if someone was with an alcoholic also rants about the existence of bars and liquor stores across the world with equal anger. My only explanation for that it politicization dragged it further than the original situation.

Please try to take time to read this and correct me or offer opinions. I need feedback and want to shape my views a bit more since I am confused.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I get your point about how people respond differently to people with Alzheimers and brain damage and schizophrenics. And I agree, people are much more patient with people who have those maladies. I disagree, by the way, about people who are alcoholics, which is why I didn't mention the above. I don't think they get as much sympathy for their "illness," either, except from other alcoholics. What they have started out as a vice, so can't be put into the same category. I've written about that elsewhere on the blog.

What you're doing now is actually an example of how Aspies can be exasperating. You keep writing these long essays and expecting me to respond to all your points. I've said what I have to say on the subject and would prefer not to keep repeating myself. If you want to keep writing, I'll post your comments, but please, as I said above, don't expect a long response.

Anonymous said...

Sorry about that. I will stop now, thanks for being patient enough to reply.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Don't take this the wrong way, I think you sound like a decent guy. You're looking for answers to some legitimate questions, which is fine. But we've already gotten to the point where we're both repeating what we've already said, and I always get a little exasperated with people who want a continued personal dialogue with me.

Anonymous said...

The sheer volume of comments on this is astounding.
~Nate

John Craig said...

Nate --
And you (and I) just added to them. Now it's 590 comments.

Anonymous said...

What do you think about people who were born with full blown autism but managed to recover speech and other abilities that they seem more like aspies:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zQKnqPM3ng

John Hall was born mentally retarded with fullblown severe autism. But at the age of 2 he was given intensive therapy for 4 years, followed up my some more sessions. He is now the CEO of a company and an author.

He acts aspie-ish and would be easy to be confused for one. But technically he is not, he was born with fullblown severe autism, and that means he is technically classically autistic. He has the classic wooden expression on his face and noticeable near absence of wrinkles (due to not making facial expressions growing up) typical of people on the autism spectrum. He doesn't act like a mentally retarded severely autistic person.

What are your thoughts? Aspergers or classic autism? Or some new word?

John Craig said...

Anonymous --
Just watched the clip. To be honest, I don't know what to make of him. He doesn't come across even Aspie-like in that interview. At one point I even wondered if he wasn't faking it, just claiming to be autistic when in fact he wasn't (in a Munchausen's Syndrome sort of way). But if what he says is true, it's remarkable.

Interesting about the lack of wrinkles, I'd never known about that before, but it makes sense.

Anyway, sorry, but I have no insights here.

Anonymous said...

I'd think he has a type of remission. You can have a remission with other disorders. That doesn't mean they have recovered or are cured. Early intervention doesn't just teach better coping skills, experiences in the first years of life can't change genes but does affect genetic expression. He had possibly one the best case scenario results. Maybe that explains why it is possible for one twin to be autistic and the other not (but often with learning disabilities), since it isn't 100% genetic, places with more pollution and radiation have higher rates of disorders.

I still believe Hall is autistic, his back is hunched a bit which is a sign of clumsiness, due to the poor proprioception of autism (contrary to the popular belief it's from regular poor motor skills). And the way he acts in the interview is kinda forced. I even think Al Gore does a better job than him , he has crows feet and wrinkles on his face.

If you ever want, maybe you can show the story to an expert and see what he thinks.

Anonymous said...

"Children with Aspergers are given extra time in school to finish their tests, and some parents will do anything to give their child a leg up"

This has probably already been said somewhere amongst all the comments (593 - I haven't read them all yet, but I will if only because many of the people who leave them are simply hysterical, and thus entertaining), but it simply wouldn't be the case that people with Asperger's Syndrome would need "extra time" to complete any written test, because being the methodical and logical beings that they are, they would be in their natural element whilst taking one. They are usually the first to finish, because they know how to focus and concentrate to the exclusion of all else, and are quite often already an expert on the subject the test is for (especially if it is science, maths, or something similar).

This wasn't the only inaccuracy here. You claim they are more likely to join cults, but that simply isn't true either, and this is due to their hyper-rationality, tendency to value facts, reason, evidence and logic above all else, and their inability to succumb to peer pressure. Conformists they are certainly NOT, so I just do not see how you could possibly be right about this.

Anyway, apart from those rather major errors, I must admit it is good to see someone finally say what needed to be said: Asperger's Syndrome is a curse, a horrible problem that too many are in denial about. No doubt you have heard of the term 'neurodiversity' and the push by many people who are on the proverbial spectrum to gain 'acceptance' of this dreaded condition (because, apparently, it is "who they are" and they can't help themselves when they act like assholes), but what they consistently fail to take account of is the fact that not only are those around the 'Aspie' being subjected to hell on Earth whilst in their presence (especially when they are having one of their notorious 'meltdowns'), but the person who has the condition is suffering as well. The hypersensitivity, the inability to control one's emotions, the constant anxiety, the inability to make friends - it is absolutely dreadful, and I know, because I unfortunately have the condition myself :( I wish I didn't, and I would give almost ANYTHING to be rid of it! I want to be normal. Screw 'neurodiversity'!

I've also been wondering if many self-proclaimed atheists on the internet have the condition as well, and whether there is a correlation between being an 'Aspie' and being an atheist. I wonder because online atheists would have to be among the most rude, arrogant, and childish people I have ever come across, ever. They just do not understand humility, or how not to be a complete ass.

John Craig said...

Anon --
I agree with you in principle that Aspies should not need extra time on tests, but that was something I was told by an educator in the county I live in, and I know him well enough to know he wouldn't lie to me about that, or make it up.

Also, not so sure that Aspies are always hyper-rational: the ones I've known have not been. And a couple have subscribed to "systems" of thought, which in effect have done their thinking for them, and have been quite rigid about not budging from those belief systems.

I agree with you completely about neurodiversity.

Interesting thought about atheists and Aspergers; I'd never thought of that before, but it could well be.

I don't know why, but a lot of the early responders to this post were enraged Aspies who basically just vented at me and either told me I had no idea what I was talking about, or called me evil. Yet in the last 150 or so comments, those commenters have disappeared and all the Aspies I've heard from have been quite rational, and civil (yourself obviously included in that number).

Anonymous said...

Good articil thank you for this, it is very hard to find the truth about aspergers on the internet which confuses people. I had dated a girl with aspergers by mistake who was beautiful but awful to be around. at the time i thought i was going crazy, its hard to figure out what is going on but it does not feel right..i ended up hating her by the end of it. she took my confidence and made me feel like garbage.I will never understand how people can actually marry someone with aspergers though it seems very desperate.I was very pleased to get away from the girl with aspergers assuming it would never happen again but i found out after moving in with my grandmother that she also has it.. I feel like im being punished.. You really need to hold onto your friends when your dealing with these people or you will go crazy when they try to tell you that there is something wrong with you which is what is happening for the second time.Now im wondering if i should just move out of my grandmothers but i need her finacial support, but same with the aspie relationship it just got worse and worse.. Ive already gotten in many arguements with her which she almost enjoys at this point. There is a lot more bad traits i think you forgot though honestly.. I do hate aspergers at this point not going to lie.. i was very confident and happy before dating one of them, and now i have to try to stand my ground to a 71 year old who enjoys upseting me like a child, which is also a trait when they are younger but when aspies become elderly they stop pretending to not be a aspie. lucky me. everything is a game with a aspie and they need to win. i dont think i will leave my grandmothers house peacefully to be honest.. the relationship did not end peacefully.. i did love your comment on the fact that aspies shouldnt care if none of these things apply to them, but thats all i would have said you shouldnt have replied to there messages its like talking to a wall.. it almost seems like they take advantage of the nice guys like myself, other people who treat them like dirt are normal to them but people who actually try to work with them are the ones that get hurt. if you have any advice with my grandmother that would be amazing, she knows all my triggers now because i didnt know she had it and was asking her to stop doing things assuming she would, like a normal human being but now she uses it against me. i try to level the playing field by telling her if she drives me away she will be alone but no common sense.. now for the second time im being told there is something wrong with me from an aspie. its interesting how she has made it to 71 lost all her friends and family because they dont want to be around her but still can say its nothing to do with her.. these people are so toxic and truly ruin the idea of relationships, i havent dated since the aspergers girls becuase i have had no motivation because the relationship did not bring me any joy at all.. which i know is not how its suppose to be.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Honestly, from the way you've described both your ex-girlfriend and grandmother, they sound almost as much like sociopaths as Aspies. Spies do not specialize in taking your confidence an making you feel like garbage, nor in gaslighting (making you feel crazy). Nor do they take a malicious enjoyment in upsetting other people. They also don't take advantage of nice people (they can't tell the nice people from the not so nice ones) the way sociopaths do.

On the other hand, talking to an Aspie IS often like talking to a brick wall; they don't really listen, or "get" what you're saying. So I'm not sure what to tell you. Also, I don't know how you came tot he conclusion that your girlfriend had Aspergers, but if she told you that, keep in mind that it's possible that she is a sociopath masquerading as an Aspie in order to seem helpless as opposed to evil. That gives her an "excuse" for her bad behavior, while masking her true nature.

Anonymous said...

Spot on. This straightforward blog article says it perfectly. I found this when I searched the phrase "how to COPE with living/raising someone with Asperger's syndrome." I've done a lot of reading to better understand, gain some insight and empathy. Though I understand a few things well enough to predict the obtuse behavior, it still doesn't make living with them any easier. I'm still trying to figure out how to cope with their lack of common sense, lack of personal hygiene and not lose my mind on a daily basis. I realize these folks didn't ask for Asperger's but they can be the most infuriating and difficult people. Some can be downright hard to love, as we exist through an endless series of WTF moments.

John Craig said...

Anon --
Thank you for that.

"I realize these folks didn't ask for Asperger's but they can be the most infuriating and difficult people. Some can be downright hard to love, as we exist through an endless series of WTF moments."

Perfectly stated.

Anonymous said...

Autistic guy here with ADHD as well. (Different guy, same from before, I do not expect a reply, but I am not the latest autistic guy, the post will be repetitive but I want to show how it is all interconnected and not random)

My theory: the reason you had a huge influx of angry rants from aspies from the first 300 or so comments is because I think they "brigaded" you. One aspie may have found a link to your site then spread it to his group, likely a neurodiversity group or site. They then ganged up and attacked all at once. The other group, people pissed off by them who were also connected somehow also gathered, they both all came in quite rapidly for it to be mere chance, people annoyed with those aspies came in all at once too, but not to attack maybe not even to reply to the subject in your post, but to post their own stories and vent, some of which is correct, some is a bit taking it too far like comparing to psychopathy or expressing disgust, but they got their beliefs from the experiences they felt, they were real. If you were sexually abused by a man when young, of course you would have trouble being around men. Even if most men are not rapists, you have to understand they can't help how they feel. The chances of having many negative traits in aspies is not unusual for people with mental disorders, no more, no less, people with aspergers need to play by the same rules as people with other disorders and things will be under more control. They are clearly listed in the DSM. Isn't it strange you did suddenly receive so many replies from everyone in such a short time isn't it? 600 posts so far, unusual, you write much more about other things but a ton of people all posted only on this one.

Once the influx of these different factions stopped, the following 150 posts with more reasonable aspies or people who knew some aspies but are just there to comment or reply directly to your post were probably people who were just looking to google more info on their own and stumbled upon your site and decided to reply to your actual post instead of writing about themselves, sharing their own views about autism, or attacking you.

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