Aspergers Syndrome -- the name for the mildest of the autism spectrum of disorders -- may be overdiagnosed these days. (Children with Aspergers are given extra time in school to finish their tests, and some parents will do anything to give their child a leg up.) But that doesn't mean the syndrome doesn't exist. This post will describe some of the symptoms. If you know people who exhibit these symptoms, understanding Aspergers will help you understand them.
The trait mostly widely associated with various sorts of autism is an inability to read other people. I don't know how -- or why -- the brain would get rewired so that someone becomes incapable of interpreting others' actions, but people with Aspergers have little insight into others. If you know someone who seems to have no clue about how others think, this could means Aspergers.
In my experience, people with Aspergers try to compensate by acting as if they know things they don't, especially about people. And they try to act as if they are in on the joke. When they see everyone else laugh, they will laugh along to show that they too are in on the humor.
This is what people with Aspergers generally do: try to pass as normal. But no one can keep such an act up forever, and when you get to really know them, their autism is unmistakable.
An autistic's inability to predict other party's feelings, thoughts, or reactions will result in frequent social faux pas. I knew one guy with Aspergers who worked in an office. When he would make an awkward attempt at a joke, his polite assistants would smile. The others would look away. The word people with Aspergers often get labeled with is lame. This often applies to their senses of humor, their excuses, and their personalities.
People with Aspergers tend to be somewhat asocial. They are uncomfortable at parties, and often become panicky in social situations. They rarely keep in touch with others over the long term. And most of their "friendships" are often institutionally based.
The traits most commonly associated with Aspergers are lack of insight and being asocial, but there are a host of other symptoms that go hand in hand with these. People with Aspergers hate having their routines disrupted. If you ask them something, they will respond by saying things like, "Uh, your timing is off!" or, "I'm doing something!"
They have a hard time dealing with criticism. They are similar to narcissistic personalities in that any criticism immediately fills them with rage. You can give them the gentlest, most constructive criticism, and they might respond by screaming, "Who are you to be telling me that I'm doing it wrong?!" And, as with narcissists, every time an Aspie errs, it's always somebody else's fault.
Or they may simply deny their errors. If an Aspie says something like, "Uh, you know, there was more freedom in the Soviet Union than there is in the US," and you point out why that statement is misguided, they may later simply deny ever having said it. I've seen Aspies deny having said something within a minute of having said it. Most people would be embarrassed to do this; but Aspies simply stonewall, sometimes without even realizing what they're doing.
And because autistics can never admit they're wrong, you will almost never hear them apologize.
People with Aspergers have a hard time identifying with other groups. A woman with Aspergers, for instance, might always stick up for women over men, no matter the circumstance, simply because she is a woman. Ironically, this is often the same type of woman who accuses men of being sexist. This might appear garden variety hypocrisy. But when it's exhibited by an Aspie, it is simply an outgrowth of their complete inability to see things from another point of view. (Which, when you think of it, is also not that dissimilar from ordinary narcissism.)
I knew one such woman with Aspergers who would scathingly refer to men as "pricks," but if anyone ever used the word "bitch," she would huff, "Uh, you know, that's a really gender-loaded word," or alternatively -- and awkwardly -- "You're insulting my sex!"
People with Aspergers are more likely to throw back accusations at the accuser, no matter how ridiculous that makes them sound. For instance, if Mike Tyson were to say, "You're a wimpy little white boy," an Aspie might respond, "No, you're a wimpy little white boy." (That's an exaggeration, but you get the idea.) A better example might be, if they're told they have Aspergers, they then tell the accuser that he has Aspergers, even if he has no symptoms.
People with Aspergers will often develop a reputation for having no common sense. (By definition, they also don't have enough common sense to realize that they have no common sense.)
They tend to have poor fine motor coordination. So they won't be good at things like typing, or dipping a knife into a honey jar and then twirling the knife so that the honey doesn't drip down the side of the jar. They are also more likely to get into minor fender benders.
They are rigid in their thinking, to the point where they must ignore facts. They generally only willingly expose themselves to one viewpoint. If you quote a fact which conflicts with their viewpoint, they may respond by saying something along the lines of, "Uh, what's your source on that?" or "You know, one person's reality is another person's fiction." Sources can certainly err, and some fields do involve perception. But an Aspie will hide behind statements like these all the time, even when a source is unimpeachable and a fact has no subjective element.
It was probably someone with Aspergers who inspired the saying, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own set of facts."
People with Aspergers tend to be germ phobic, and have other symptoms of obsessive compulsive disorder.
They dislike bright lights and loud noises more than most.
They have a tendency to mangle words (e.g., "buxmous" rather than "buxom" and "insiduous" rather than "insidious").
People with Aspergers often have an intense focus on one interest; they may be fascinated by something like trains, or buses. Those people you read about who are fascinated by trains and who will pretend to be conductors just so they can take them for joyrides are usually autistic (They usually have a more serious form of autism than just Aspergers.) Likewise, every now and then you'll read about someone who just takes a city bus out for a spin. These people don't have evil intentions: they don't want to hurt anybody, or actually steal the bus. They are simply completely and utterly fascinated by the big moving vehicles.
As a result of their narrow focus, Aspies frequently use non sequiturs. No matter the subject being discussed, they will just start talking about whatever their interest is.
People with Aspergers tend to be very literal. For instance, they may think that sailfish just swim around on the surface of the ocean, getting propulsion from their giant dorsal fins via the wind. Because, after all, they are sailfish. When someone uses a metaphor, they may take it literally. (This is partly why they tend not to get jokes.)
Because all of these traits can obviously result in an inability to get along with others, people with Aspergers often prefer the company of animals to humans. (Pets never disagree with them, or criticize them, or laugh at them. And their pets need them, and give them uncritical love.)
John Lucas and Scott Moore, who wrote the script for The Hangover, understood autistics perfectly. The Zach Galafianakis character is the brother of the girl that the Justin Bartha character is going to marry. At the beginning of the movie she thanks Justin for bringing her brother to Las Vegas with him for his bachelor party, and he reflexively replies, no problem, Zach is cool. The girl says no, Zach is not cool. We see little hints of Zach's personality early on. He says things that don't quite make sense. At one point, as they check into Caesar's Palace, he asks if Caesar slept there. The others look at each other, then ignore the comment and move on. Zach gradually grows more and more annoying with his malapropisms and inappropriate reactions and insistence that he is right, to the point of being infuriating. In the movie, he eventually he redeems himself by counting cards, the type of thing an autistic is more likely to be able to do, and after their adventure everybody ends up friends. (In real life, the other three would have put some distance between themselves and Zach as soon as it was decently possible to do so.)
Lucas and Moore had to have known someone who was autistic in their lives; the Galafianakis character was just too well drawn to for them not to have personal familiarity with the syndrome. Bear in mind, not all people with Aspergers look like Zach Galafianakis. Some can be beautiful women, whose beauty may initially blind you to their lameness. The interesting thing, as with any syndrome, is to see all the little behaviors that betray that syndrome.
Galafianakis pretty much reprised that role in Due Date, a buddy movie he made with Robert Downey. There he showed the same exasperating inappropriate behavior, lack of common sense, and all-around cluelessness, this time employed in the service of driving Downey to distraction.
Autistics are far more likely to join a cult, or become immersed in a system of thinking which becomes a substitute for any personal sense of judgment. They feel far more comfortable when they can view everything from the perspective of a rigid ideology. They are more likely to join the military, with its rigid hierarchy and rules. Or they may become immersed in an all-consuming religion, perhaps one with rigid and restrictive rules regarding every aspect of personal behavior -- and which disapproves strongly of nonbelievers. Or they subscribe with an almost religious zeal to a particular school of thought like Marxism. All of these ideologies, or systems, or structures, are a substitute for having to think on their own.
Aspies are not bad people; they're not sociopaths. We should never hold anyone responsible for anything beyond their control; and nobody chose to have Aspergers. But if you have constant exposure to them, or are responsible for them in any way, they are inevitably infuriating. If you've been around one for any length of time, the phrase "willfully obtuse" will undoubtedly come to mind. Most people you can talk some sense into, but people with Aspergers are so rigid in their thinking there's never any budging them.
In any loosely knit social group, you'll see that people tend to gravitate away from those with the syndrome. People with Aspergers may be stiffly polite (what they think of as "social skills"), since the give and take of normal banter is beyond them. If you know someone who seems to make a great effort to remember all the social niceties, but does so in somewhat robotic fashion, think Aspergers. If that person seems lost if he has to go off-script, you can be surer of that diagnosis.
One of the problems with Aspergers is that it is impossible to self-diagnose. Sociopaths, when they get older, generally come to the realization that they're sociopaths. Neurotics certainly know they're neurotic, depressives know they're depressed, and everybody is aware of their own sexual peculiarities. But if you're clueless about human nature, how can you possibly realize that others are not equally so?
One thing people with Aspergers do have in common with normal people is that the accusations they level most frequently often reflect their own weaknesses. They'll say things along the lines of, "You're so far out of it you don't even realize you're out of it." Or, "You just don't get it, do you?" Or they'll call someone a jackass.
All perfect descriptions of Aspergers Syndrome.
Addendum, 3/11/13: If you found this post via Google, you might find this post on whether or not Aspies are responsible for their own behavior interesting. Or this one, on whether Aspies span the full range of morality.
Addendum, 1/7/14: As you can see below, this post has attracted a slew of comments. A few are from people who've dealt with Aspies and who agree with me, but most are from outraged Aspies -- or their relatives -- who can't believe how insensitive I am. They are welcome to use this forum the same way I sometimes do -- to vent. I will post their comments. But I don't have the energy or inclination to respond to all of them, especially since I've long since found myself saying the same things over and over. So please feel free to tell me what a horrible person I am; just don't expect a response.
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«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 703 of 703Anon --
Thank you for that, that's a good explanation for what happened. I actually did find a couple of those sites you refer to, and they WERE gathering sites for Aspies, and they DID take the expected attitude toward me, so you're absolutely right.
And yes, you described the gradual evolution of comments quite well too. At this point this post is not only the most responded-to post in this blog, it's also the mostly widely read (I can see which posts have gotten the most page views on the blog). I think that some people have signed up for the "follow-up comments" function for various reasons and come back for that reason, out of curiosity to see how others react.
Anyway, thanks.
Autistic/ADHD guy:
I also think you write more posts about other things so people might comment on one of them instead of the comments all getting concentrated on one post. Also, people in large groups (like the "brigades") tend to think less individually and rationally, they are much more emotional when they write, talk, or act. If they come here to post on their own because they found your site through google while surfing the net on an afternoon, they made a decision to reply as individuals, no mob mentality getting in the way of their heads, so more civil and rational. And their lack of connections to neurodiversity sites also means they are less, uhhhh had less of the wool pulled over their eyes by them (?).
ADHD AUTISTIC MOMENT:I have thoughts, they come to me sometimes and I need to find the words after I think it, but have trouble finding words for them, if I have some insight or come up with an idea on my own, it is so relieving when I find someone who came up with the same thought or idea, even maybe expanded on it more, who could put it into words I can read or hear, or I find the word for that idea I just had in a dictionary, so I know what to say next time when someone asks me something and I will know how to answer. Your posts help, you put a lot into words ideas I also had but couldn't explain.
Anon --
Actually, that has nothing to do with why I write other posts. I just write about whatever I"m interested in; sometimes (as on this post) the intention is to vent, other times the intention is to amuse. I've written over 2400 posts on the blog; that would certainly be a lot of work my only intention was to distract attention from this one post.
Glad you find the blog useful, though, thank you for that.
Your diatribe just validated everything stated in the article. Plus you missed the point- helping neurotypical people understand Aspergers'people and made it all about YOU- the hallmark of Aspergers.
Who are you replying to, anonymous from 10:03?
To John:
What would be helpful is if the autistic community uses self pity instead of pride and hates their disorder, it will get more accomplished, emphasizing suffering. Self pity, while pitiful, is preferable to self righteousness and vanity.
If you look at the schizophrenic community, they really want people to know that all is suffering for them. Look at this quote from wikipedia:
"Assuming a hereditary basis, one question from evolutionary psychology is why genes that increase the likelihood of psychosis evolved, assuming the condition would have been maladaptive from an evolutionary point of view. One idea is that genes are involved in the evolution of language and human nature, but to date such ideas remain little more than hypothetical in nature."
The fact there is nothing of the sort from the Autism article shows clear bias from whoever writes them. And recently newsweek did an article on how autism must have been a key player in evolution and guiding society and some crap.
Here is one about ADHD from wikipedia too:
"In certain situations, ADHD traits may have been beneficial to society as a whole even while being harmful to the individual." The rest implies that these small traits when concentrated become maladaptive, and that the genes may be accidental side effects of valuable mutations in human evolution that have come to bite us in the ass.
If you see a schizophrenic portrayed in the media or a movie, the pain is shown. The character is portrayed as falling into a horrible fate. Paintings, art, representation is of the intense pain and hellishness. They admit the existence of their own suffering, they don't take pride in having it. They ask you to say "person with schizophrenia", but a ton of aspies say "I am an autistic person, not a person with autism". Ugghhh..
The art btw is like this:
http://en.citizendium.org/images/thumb/f/fa/Schizophrenia.jpg/280px-Schizophrenia.jpg
There was a awareness campaign that was pulled down by a neurodiversity group who are called ASAN.
http://s169.photobucket.com/user/ELM22_photos/media/autism_large.jpg.html
But no group tried to pull down the equivalent for other disorders:
http://www.rescuepost.com/.a/6a00d8357f3f2969e2017ee7331b6d970d-400wi
http://s169.photobucket.com/user/ELM22_photos/media/ocd_large.jpg.html
http://s169.photobucket.com/user/ELM22_photos/media/depression_large.jpg.html
Asking for pity is pitiful, but it is better than asking for that other thing (shudder).
Plus this campaign wasn't offensive at all, it was saying a person isn't their illness, that the disease is what is causing the problem and they deserve compassion.
How can anyone gives legitimacy to a movement that trivializes intense suffering and crippling disability? When many disabled adults have to wear diapers and be taken care of as their disease assaults them to no end causing pain and pain.
So maybe a good first step is to learn from the schizophrenic or bipolar community and feel sorry for yourself instead of feeling you are an ubermensch. Then work on making it reasonable somehow.
Anon --
No question, self righteousness and vanity are not the right way to deal with a mental disorder. But I don't think it's entirely coincidence that autism/Aspergers is the one disorder which has developed this "neurodiversity" movement. Think about what I wrote in the post: that part of Aspergers is never being able to admit you're wrong, or admit that there's anything wrong with you. So, given that as background, it is actually not surprising that a lot of them would have risen up to proclaim that they are merely differently abled. (The only comparable disorder in this regard would be narcissism, in that they can't ever admit they are at fault or that there is something basic wrong with them either, but even they're not crazy enough to suggest that their syndrome is a sign of superiority somehow.)
People with Aspergers suffer, but I don't think you can put their suffering quite at the level of a schizophrenics. A schizoid person is by definition insane, and the sort of craziness that afflicts Aspies is a more minor sort, mostly just a lack of insight into others. It doesn't cause them to think that the clouds are sending them messages, or that billboards have control of their brains, etc.
But, yeah, anyway, I completely agree that the neurodiversity movement is misguided. There's something to be said for pride, but if the prerequisite for that pride is denial, it's misplaced.
The main reason this happened in my opinion is people just letting it happen. Plenty of people with other disorders refuse to think there is something wrong with them or that they are fine. You see interviews with patients in mental hospitals all the time insisting everything is fine, they are not sick or wrong, and everybody else has something wrong with them. ASD is no different in this regard. But with other disorders people any sane doctor knows to not trust the patient when their mind is impaired. So why the hell are people trusting autistic people that they are alright, or even that they are superhuman? So I disagree partially, I don't believe this is unique to them, the difference lies with the ones who collaborated with them, bought into their bullshit, or let this happen (and I know you are not one of them). In the long run, it is just one of many disorders and isn't as unique as we think, it shares many primary symptoms and overlaps with other disorders, the rest of the behavior is a combination of psychology influenced by the symptoms, the way the symptoms manifest, and societal permissiveness. By sheer dumb luck and the existence of the internet, nobody will take it seriously as a legitimate health crisis. And society has been incredibly stupid to even let this happen, this is the anti-psychiatric movement (like Mad Pride) all over again except nobody is speaking up against it. Hell I bet most aspies actually would learn to hate having the disorder if you put them under different conditions, I asked a Chinese psychologist and she guesstimated 90% of her ASD patients wished they were normal. I asked a British one and he said 50/50. So some shit is going down in the western world.
It would be better, creating an awareness campaign based on suffering. It is better than pride. Instead of inserting a super talented aspie savant into a tv show for "representation", show one who we are meant to feel compassion for since. Self-pity is pitiful but 1000x better than the other thing. Oh and you would be surprised that many neurotypical people are very permissive. You see huge crowds drawn to stupid TED talks with neurodiversity nutjobs, you see newsweek articles and books on the "hidden history of autism and the role in society" fly off the shelves. They (and I bet its a very large minority if you think about it, think how many autists maybe hate having it but have no desire to say anything) are too few and lack power to accomplish anything on their own. It's only because society has allowed it. Everyone has caused this to happen.
Oh and btw, the neurodiversity movement isn't just about the higher end of the spectrum. They frequently try to speak also for severely autistic people, claiming that it is not a disorder either, that they are also just differently abled. Severely autistic people tend to resent the higher end for that. They may suffer as much as schizophrenics if not more. The ransom note campaign I linked to was for the classic kind of autism, like non-verbal, and they were attacked and taken down by neurodiversity. Nobody emphasizes the sheer pain they feel in media representation.
Anon --
Everything you say is true, but I still think that part of the problem just lies with the nature of spit people who hate to admit anything is wrong with them. (I've never encountered that sort of thing among the few schizophrenics I've met, or the more numerous depressives or bipolars.)
Another part of the problem, the reason so many o these Aspies think that they are somehow special, is the lists that get compiled of famous people with Aspergers. These lists are obviously made up by neurodiversity types, or at least by Aspie advocates of some sort, and they always include people like Albert Einstein, Nicola Tesla, Isaac Newton, Mark Twain, and so on. Now some of these people may actually have had Aspergers, but I suspect the vast majority of them did not, but were merely eccentric in other ways, for different reasons. (Their reasoning often seems to be something along the lines of, "Oh, see, he was a loner! So he must have been an Aspie!" Or, "He had OCD -- that means he was an Aspie!") Then the Aspies glom onto these lists as proof of their "exalted" status.
Strangely, those lists never seem to include people like Adam Lanza, Eliot Rodger, and Seung-Hui Cho, all of whom almost certainly had some degree of autism.
A previous 'anonymous' at 2:32 on March 31st wrote:
"There was a awareness campaign that was pulled down by a neurodiversity group who are called ASAN.
http://s169.photobucket.com/user/ELM22_photos/media/autism_large.jpg.html"
The picture was still there when I went to investigate this so-called awareness campaign, and I can understand why the people at A.S.A.N. were offended by it.
I don't think I can poste the image here, so I'll describe it. A ransom note, signed "Autism" with the message, "We have your son. We will make sure he will not be able to care for himself or interact socially as long as he lives. This is only the beginning."
Those of us who already have enough to deal with on a daily basis don't need crap like this. Comparing a condition that, through no fault of our own, we are stuck with to a creepy kidnapper is just vile, not to mention misleading, unnecessary and just plain stupid.
Since this article is so negative about the condition known as Asperger's Syndrome, and lists not a single positive thing about it, I thought I would do that here.
First of all, us Aspies (I don't like that term, but for the sake of brevity I'll use it) are not "clueless" when it comes to interacting with others. We understand that the majority (i.e. the neurotypicals) like to deceive both themselves and others, for a number of reasons that have to do with one-upmanship, "being polite", and being unwilling or unable to face the truth (among many other things). We, on the other hand, have rather different priorities. In our view, conversation should serve one purpose only: to convey meaningful and honest information to another person. This is the main reason why we do not like to engage in "small talk", because from our perspective it is utterly meaningless, pointless and quite frankly rather stupid.
Speaking of perspectives, from our point of view neurotypicals come across as being kind of sociopathic. They are quite willing to practice deception if it means holding on to a friend, even though in the long run the truth is always better, and they seemm to believe that competition is somehow virtuous. They believe that everyone, without exception, tells "white lies", even if only occasionally (Aspies don't), and they seem to think that allegory and metaphor are appropriate within any context that one could ever describe as being adult. Metaphor is for children and retards. Don't they know this yet?
Yes, we take things literally. What is so wrong with that? If everyone did this there would no longer be any room for misunderstandings within relationships, and that would be a good thing wouldn't it? We are also far more intelligent than your typical neurotypical, value honesty, are loyal, to the point, don't waffle on, and don't care about status. It has been said that animals still have the ability - which most people apparently lack - to sniff out trouble, and try to avoid people who have a few loose marbles rolling around between their ears, but - surprise, surprise - get along fabulously with us Aspies! Gee, I wonder why?
Yes, we have our issues, but which group of people within society does not? We see the world differently from approximately 97% of the world's population, and that, in and of itself, isn't a bad thing. It is neither bad nor good, just different. You say that you find us "irritating". Well, to be quite honest (and us Aspies are always honest, you can count on that), we find neurotypicals to be irritating, not to mention boorish, shallow, and utterly insensitive as well. They are also violent, bad tempered, and lack empathy. Yes, that's right, they LACK empathy, because from our perspective they simply cannot comprehend the supremely simple idea that maybe not everyone sees and understands the world the way they do. It just escapes their notice, goes right over their head.
I've actually read all of the - now 609 - comments here, and I was really surprised that no one thought to challenge your (extremely negative) beliefs about us with a few simple truths. I suspect that many, if not most, of the commenters who published anonymously that criticised your article were not actually on the spectrum, but perhaps believed that they had to say something because they found your views to be extremely biased.
But who made those lists? Why did they make them? Why did people believe them?
I understand based on your experience you believe asperger syndrome and maybe narcissism are the only conditions where you have witnessed a person not admitting to anything wrong with them in the specific sense I described, so you may think this trait made it the one disease that would make a movement like this most likely. (But there WERE other movements for other disorders like Mad Pride for schizophrenia)
But there can be other factors at play, more severely autistic people tend to wish to be normal as a tendency, cultural differences (I mentioned the Chinese psychologist estimate at 90% vs the 50/50 from the Brit). Also 30-50% of schizophrenic patients do not believe they have something wrong with them, medication may restore some lucidity but the negative symptoms remain. Probably bipolar or schizophrenic people who really do think there is nothing wrong with them and refuse to takes their medications are so severely impaired they won't run into you, they will be tucked away somewhere or hidden. There lies a problem, the higher end of autism makes a person out of touch with other people's thoughts enough to think there is nothing wrong (not always, and I stated the more severe, the more likely they do which is ironic) but lucid enough to not be in a mental hospital or group home so they will be out and about, so they are given credibility maybe?
Do you have any insights on why society is treating this differently? Why have they bought into it? I've met a psychologist who had one asperger patient who refused to take medication and thought he was better than neurotypicals, but instead of treating it seriously. They just tried to nicely reason with him and "respect his viewpoints". Uhhh, why would they do that? Would they do that with any other disorder?
ASD affects anywhere from 1 in 150 to 1 in 38, I'll go with 1 in 60 which is very generous, for every 4 classically autistic patients you have 1 higher end, so 1 in 240 has HFA/aspergers, but maybe some are undiagnosed, so I'll be generous again and say 1 in 120. So there are 119 people, but not everyone has no disorder, so I will say 99 people. So why are 99 people supporting the movement by that 1 guy? But supporters of neurodiversity with ASD may only be a fraction. So I will say 50/50 (but it could be as little as 90/10 as in Asia). 199 people to 1 guy, and enough of them believe every word he says or doesn't interfere? Why? Why do they believe him and not people with another disorder? Why did everyone laugh off the anti-psychiatry movement Mad Pride when they had their movement but not modern neurodiversity which is one too? Where are the professional pointing out the absurdity of this? I only know one (Manuel Cassanova, neuroscientist and professional, the man behind TMI) he writes about how autism is not normal. Clear evidence pointing to abnormal features not falling within the range of human variance (like life threatening seizures and sensory dysfunction in severe autistic patients) showing it is most definitely abnormal and a disease.
Someone said neurodiversity may be a conspiracy theory by companies to cover up their chemical ridden products increases the risk of autism. I don't know. I think they trigger or increase the risk of an already existing predisposition.
If you don't have an opinion or any answers. It's alright. I just don't get it. I really don't.
To the 'Anonymous' above at 1:30 PM. - Who were you responding to?
"Someone said neurodiversity may be a conspiracy theory by companies to cover up their chemical ridden products increases the risk of autism. I don't know. I think they trigger or increase the risk of an already existing predisposition."
Rubbish. Autism and Asperger's Syndrome have always been with us, but the people who displayed the traits were usually just thought of as being "weird", and generally avoided or (to a far lesser extent) tolerated and accepted as just being different, especially if they had some unique gift. It has nothing to do with chemical conspiracies.
By the way, I now view so-called neurotypicals as just being high-functioning sociopaths (HFS). That's my own personal perception of them, because in my experience they are simply NOT to be trusted - at all. They will try to take advantage of you, decieve you, lie to you, and do all of the other things that they themselves usually associate with sociopaths. Is it any wonder the world is in the horrible mess it's in, because THEY are in charge of it. They are illogical, irrational, overly-emotional (just look at that gasbag Trump, and that kleptocratic murderer Putin), and actually think they are superior to us. Yeah right, as if that could ever be the case.
They also want to 'cure' us. Really? From what, exactly? Our forthright honesty? Our unwillingness to tolerate injustice? No, even though there are times when I wish I didn't have many of the 'symptoms' of this condition (ex. the sensory issues, the inability to read so-called body language), and for many years was troubled by it, overall I am a better person because of it. I still try to 'fit in', if only because I am the kind of person who is willing to compromise, to see things from the other person's perspective (which this author thinks we are literally incapable of, which just goes to show how much he knows about us). They, on the other hand, don't want to meet us half-way. They don't even want to try, and yet they dare to accusse US of being 'stubborn' and 'unreasonable'! The words 'Freudian projection' come to mind here.
Peter
Goddammit peter you sound like a schizophrenic or bipolar patient who think nothing is wrong and refuses to take meds. Btw, if autism is supposedly entirely genetic and has always been with us then why is it possible for an identical twin to be autistic and the other not? Also a range of enviromental factors like paternal age and birth difficulty has been linked to increased chances for autism. Plus the genes for autism are under constant selective pressure, they only reappear theough mutation. Also if autism is such a gift, why is schizophrenia, alzheimers, bipolar, and parkinsons not gifts too? Autism shares heavy genetic overlap and many symptoms too with them. Take your meds and feel sorry for yourself and walk around disheveled and morose if you have to like a bipolar person would. Its better than being a self righteous contrarian. Stop drinking the kool aid, you said you used to hate it but i see you are now trying to repress your despair with this nonsense. ideology! Your beliefs are harmful to autistic people, you will get them bullied more.
To John:
Also you notice this dude said he used to hate his symptoms (and possibly his autism as well?)
But then embracing neurodiversity.
Anti-neurodiversity autistic blogger Johnathan Mitchell (classic autism, born with very severe autism but went through intervention making him verbal and able to shower himself and stuff, but he still stims a lot and talks too loud and is very autistic which he is actually aware of) says "Neurodiversity is a tempting escape valve".
So maybe neurodiversity isn't an inevitable result of the autistic trait of not admitting something is wrong with you. (Which I pointed out is common to many mental illnesses) but of society permitting it to happen and the internet allowing groups to form (meaning that they won't die out if they are proven wrong over and over like with Mad Pride for schizophrenia in the 80s). It may be that some autistics would hate having it if it weren't for falling for that movement. Yes, some are just that way, but not all of them are.
To add: Autism you could say is like a fire. Neurodiversity is fuel, it makes them even more stubborn and unreasonable and prevents any chance of becoming more civil and rational. The existence of the reasonable aspie comments after the unreasonable shows there is some degree of free will in what they can choose to believe.
"Btw, if autism is supposedly entirely genetic and has always been with us then why is it possible for an identical twin to be autistic and the other not?"
Anonymous (at 12:13, April 3), I never said it was genetic. Read my post again. I said it "has always been with us", and that is the specific claim I made there. I did not mention genetics, and I myself don't believe it really IS entirely genetic. My belief is that environment plays its part as well, but to what extent I do not know.
Tell me something 'anonymous', are you taking 'meds' for being neurotypical? I'm guessing you are not, and the reason why has to do with the fact that you don't believe your condition to be an illness. It just so happens that I myself have Asperger's Syndrome (not autism - I remain unconvinced the two conditions are the same, or even related, for reasons too complex to go into at the moment here), and although it certainly does mean that because of it I see the world differently from the majority, that fact, in and of itself, is not something that needs to be 'corrected' by taking medication (or doing anything else, for that matter). I am not sick, I don't need to be 'cured', even though I will readily admit that because I am so different from what is considered to be 'normal', life has been more difficult for me than it otherwise would have been. Compare it to colour-blindness, if you will. People who have that particular condition can still function, can still live a happy and productive life, even if they only see various shades of grey, but people who are completely blind tend to struggle and often need a lot of help (which I suppose you can compare to those who have full-blown autism, or a related condition of equal severity).
Autism (like complete blindness) presents extra challenges for those who have it, of a magnitude that can be compared to those who have schizophrenia, and for which treatments should be made available for those who would otherwise simply not be able to function on a day-to-day basis. I am not like this. I don't see why I should have to be medicated just so I can 'fit in' and otherwise be a mindless conformist. No thanks, but I don't want to be a gossipy, materialistic, status-seeking drone, which is what the vast majority of neurotypicals in fact are.
Peter (I have to post under 'anonymous' because I don't have a Fakebook, Disqus or other such account)
"Also you notice this dude said he used to hate his symptoms (and possibly his autism as well?)
But then embracing neurodiversity." - anonymous at 9:27
Which "dude" are we talking about here? Me? Well, if we are, then I can honestly say that yes, there have been times when I couldn't accept who I was. I'm sure that most people go through such a phase in life, and it's often the case that people will have really bad days during which they just don't want to have anything to do with their 'condition', whatever it might be that distinguishes them from the majority.
I don't 'embrace' the neurodiversity movement, for a number of reasons, one of those reasons being the fact that it is largely driven by extreme left-wing social justice warriors who are completely unwilling to consider the fact that, over time, people actually do change. For example, when I was in my first year at school, I couldn't look anyone in the eye. It was just impossible for me at the time, but now it's not a problem at all, and I can do it now because in spite of all that was working against me I felt I had no choice in the matter if I wanted others to understand me. I made the effort to try, and it worked. That doesn't mean, of course, that my Asperger's Syndrome magically dissipated over time; it's still with me, but now I can deal with it far more effectively than I could when I was younger.
I still often wish I were different, that's only to be expected. Who, after all, wants to be seen as being the 'odd one out'? Who wants to be without friends? Not me. I still sometimes get weird looks from strangers in public, but I no longer care. In fact, I will often 'stim' on purpose when it happens just to show that I don't give a rat's rear end about their judgmental attitude. I don't 'stim' at all, by the way, but I'll do it just for their benefit :)
Peter
"Anti-neurodiversity autistic blogger Johnathan Mitchell (classic autism, born with very severe autism but went through intervention making him verbal and able to shower himself and stuff, but he still stims a lot and talks too loud and is very autistic which he is actually aware of) says "Neurodiversity is a tempting escape valve"." - Anonymous at 9:27
Yes, I've also read what he has to say about this whole neurodiversity project, and he's basically right. Accepting what cannot be changed about a person is one thing, but actively promoting the belief that if one does not accept who one is then calling you a 'curebie' or a 'bigot' is acceptable, is just daft. If someone is having problems to such an extent that they want to change the basic underlying character of who they are, then I say "Go for it!" I wouldn't stand in their way, because I understand how difficult life can be for those us who are relatively 'normal'. Even just having Asperger's Syndrome (which apparently is just a 'mild' version of autism, but I don't see it that way), can be a real drain of one's emotional resources. Having to constantly pretend to be interested in 'small-talk' when someone engages in it is profoundly annoying, but if I yawn or tell them I'm bored... well, they just can't handle it. The truth hurts, honesty isn't valued in our society anymore, and that's probably why the neurotypical majority hate us so much.
Peter
BACK ME UP JOHN, PLEASE!
Btw to peter:
There is no unique biomarker for asperger syndrome, and even if it is distinct from classical autism there is possibly as much subvariation in classical autism. In fact autism may be a side effect of numerous disorders. If I have a limo leg, there can be 1000 different reasons.
So autism is not a single entity. It's a collection of side effects from numerous problems. There is even late onset autism that can be gotten in your teens from encephalitis.
There is also a form of dementia call Pick's disease that causes protein build up, it causes symptoms such as echolalia, theory of mind impairments, executive dysfunction, stimming, repetitive behaviour. If we did not know the cause, we would just call it "elderly autism".
Autism is a disease, not a gift. If it was part of our history, it's evolution biting us int he ass.
Oh and peter, the neurotypical majority don't hate you. There are so many full of love and compassion for autistic people out there everyday. If you, who is a verbal patient of autism, says no to that. It will bite the ones who cannot talk in the ass too. You speak for them when they never asked you too.
Anon --
You seem to be fighting this fight pretty well on your own, you don't need me. Anyway, I've already said pretty much all I've had to say about Aspergers, both on this post and in several others, and am long past the point where I'm just repeating myself all the time. If it helps any, I don't believe in the neurodiversity movement, and think it's silly. And to have a mental disorder which mimics a character disorder (narcissism) in so many ways, like throwing a tantrum when someone criticizes you and never being able to admit when you're wrong, means one is very hard to sympathize. Now, no one is arguing that the two disorders are the same; but to me common sense would dictate that a genetic disorder which causes one to act as if one has a character disorder is not something to be proud of, but rather something to work on.
Hmm.....looks like you did get me to stick up for you. So let me add one last thing that actually buttresses your debate opponent here: I can understand why Aspies think of neurotypicals as deceitful and duplicitous, and object to that being called normal, since they are not skillful at lies and evasions and manipulation themselves.
"I can understand why Aspies think of neurotypicals as deceitful and duplicitous, and object to that being called normal, since they are not skillful at lies and evasions and manipulation themselves." - John
Whilst it may be the case that most of us just aren't good at it (something we agree on), it's also the case that most of us just don't think that it is the right thing to do. We have principles, ones we are not willing to compromise on. If there is no necessity to lie, then why do it?
'Anonymous', what's your name by the way?
"There is no unique biomarker for asperger syndrome..." - anonymous
That's right, there isn't. So what?
"There is even late onset autism that can be gotten in your teens from encephalitis." - anonymous
That's news to me.
"There is also a form of dementia call Pick's disease that causes protein build up, it causes symptoms such as echolalia, theory of mind impairments, executive dysfunction, stimming, repetitive behaviour. If we did not know the cause, we would just call it "elderly autism"." - anonymous
No, we do not have an impaired "theory of mind"; that's a myth, it simply isn't the case. Most - not all, but most - of us understand perfectly well that one can see things from the perspective of someone else, but what leads many to think we can't do this is our tendency to react to (for example, the emotions of others, hints, body language) in ways that the majority deem to be 'inappropriate'. Inappropriate for them maybe, but not for us. I would define Asperger's Syndrome thus: a difference in the manner in which individuals labelled as such perceive, and react to, the various stimuli that assault their senses, and which directly influences their ability to understand behaviour and thought processes that, due to the fact that the majority share them, are deemed to be 'normal'. Yes, this 'definition' may not be the best, but that's basically what it's all about. Other things (like being 'annoying' or 'pedantic') stem from this basic difference.
"BACK ME UP JOHN, PLEASE!" - anonymous
You sound like you're drowning :)
No, John has probably become bored with all of this, and he seems to think you're 'fighting this fight pretty well on your own'. I don't think of this as a fight though, but more like an attempt to clear up some misunderstandings. Many, if not most, of the people who first complained about this article tended to allow their emotions to gain the upper hand, and as a result failed to make a case for why Asperger's Syndrome isn't as bad as it's portrayed here by John. They could have used any number of approaches to debunk it (ex. the meagre sample of four - statisticians would not be impressed), but instead they just went on a rant, and in the process just confirmed the belief laid out here that people who are 'Aspies' can't handle criticism. SOME Aspies can't handle criticism, that's true, but some can, especially if it's actually constructive.
No peter, and theory of mind is not a single entity. People often say "has" because it is simpler than explaining everything. It is not something one really has or doesn't, it is something you do. The executive dysfunctions in autism disorders may be responsible. Also it is found in other disorders too. Play by the same rules, you are not gifted, you need help.
I disagree about it resembling narcissism all the time. I think it can resemble borderline sometimes. The side taking and viewing everything in absolutes. But the aspie subtype who resemble narcissists may end up with borderlines, and they frequently do.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/mar04/mixing.aspx
Bipolar people seem to be the "innocent" version of BPD the way Aspies are the "innocent" version of narcissists. So I wonder if personality disorder ridden people also look for people with organic conditions that resemble what they seek.
In the defense of "organics".
It's kinda sickening people with personality disorders prey on people with organic conditions if it's too hard to find another personality disturbed person.
In the defense of those with personality defects:
How could you be so goddamn stupid and naive?
Anon --
That's a very good point. And, btw, I agree that Aspergers doesn't resemble narcissism ALL the time; and yes, I suppose it resembles borderline at times too.
And that's a good metaphor, bipolars are the innocent version of BPD, and Aspies the innocent version of narcissists.
But I disagree that people with personality disorders are seeking either other personality disordered people (sociopaths, for instance, avoid each other like the plague, and when circumstance throws them together, explosions tend to result) OR people with organic conditions. What narcissists and sociopaths want are simply naive people who don't see through them, whom they can manipulate and dominate. If those victims happen to come in the form of an Aspie, so be it; but it's not as if they're looking specifically for people with organic conditions.
Hey, sometimes opposites can attract. You never know.
I don't know what the "opposites attract" comment referred to, but reminded me of seeing on a blog a suggestion that aspies seek partners who are very sensitive/empathetic to complement their deficits as a unit. Sounds "logical" and i didn't comment at the time, but that is a horrible idea. To be extra-sensitive & partner with someone who lacks emotional sensitivity would inevitably be extremely painful.
Not always, you would be surprised how often they end up with borderlines. Of course, borderline is arguably an extreme type of sensitivity. To them, emotions are blasted at them until it's a blur. They respond to happiness with great heightened emotional feelings, but the smallest slight will land you with a scar.
A different kind of opposite, like oil and water. Not water and air. Ever hear of the phrase "the opposite of hate is not love, but indifference"? Different kind of opposite.
To John:
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/10/local/la-me-dementia-20120210
Elderly autism! I'm not surprised. Autism is like a rash, there can be 100 different things that cause it. There is no single autism gene, there is evidence of dozens of types from different causes, and more subtypes. One guy could have a gene causing cerebal folate deficiency leading to a cascading effect, the other has encephalitis from herpes infection as a kid. Both causing autism to develop as a child. You see, it isn't technically right from birth all the time. Autism can set in anywhere from 2-3 years old, it's the more severe genetic cases that are from birth. Ask the parent of an autist and many tell you they stop making eye contact around that time. Arguably other organic conditions are similar, different causes, but they set in later. They are trying to find ways to prevent a person who is genetically predisposed to conditions to not develop them in their teens. If they can do research on trying to prevent it in a newborn for once that strikes in toddlerhood, that would be swell. But the window is smaller.
There's a classic paradigm of narcissist/codependent couples too... I suppose that's opposites. Doesn't mean it's not pathological.
I have read through your article carefully (apart from the move reference), and I would just like to say the majority does make sense.
Not everyone is the same, I have aspergers, some things I disagree on, most I don't. I am frequently called rude in work, yet am also regularly referred to as very polite... The two are contrasting and contradictory. I believe the 'rude' comment refers to my responses in conversation and I have been told I don't think through what I am about to say, yet it must have ran through my head 10 times in that split second before it came out...
Yet I am very polite; I always try and say please and thank you, I never interrupt a conversation (because I don't know how to) and always come straight in with my 'mission'.
Luckily I work with people who are very flexible and understanding, and long respected my condition before it was fully diagnosed.
Keep writing, I have saved your post to send to others who don't understand me!
I checked this article out, not for the post, but the infamous comments.
Sigh...
The people who come to vent about how much they can't stand aspies, nice you give them some sympathy, and listen to them, hear their stories. Some go overboard, comparisons to psychopathy and expressing disgust that goes beyond relationships or dealing with them but their existence. I guess I am going to write about them.
A lot missed the point your article was for venting or sharing your observation. They seemed to think you are one of "them". A fellow "survivor" of this group of people who like sociopaths go around causing mayhem. You clearly state aspies are not sociopaths and they are basically little castrated sheep, but they reply as if you have already agreed with them, but I've seen you disagree and correct them if they start using psychopathy to compare. The word you used "commonsensical" in some posts is what I got from you here.
"Your diatribe just validated everything stated in the article. Plus you missed the point- helping neurotypical people understand Aspergers'people and made it all about YOU- the hallmark of Aspergers."
I just noticed this recent comment, it's a good example, I have no idea who it was aimed at since it was so late. You posted to vent, not to make some warning guide about some potential threat, a guide on how to spot the evil aspie predator in the wild, which is an impression I got from some other poster.
Something I've seen a lot of is that many borderlines have a tendency to get into relationships with aspies since we resemble narcissists. The oil and water theory. And some of these anti-aspie posters do veer into black and white thinking. Not all of them, but I don't get commonsensical from some of them.
I also scrolled up and saw the post about heartlessasperger, I looked at the website and also compared it to the other websites for different disorders. It would have been a good website if it wasn't all over the place, it will only scare away recognition. Some of these websites complained sesame street was going to have an autistic muppet, some vastly overestimate the population of autistic people (like 1 in 15), they repeatedly bring up autistic violence, and the mass shooter kind, not spousal violence which is more relevant and important, they believe if someone has autism that parents must always have had it since the beginning of time (it can skip a generation or lay dormant and pop up later, there aren't millions of entire clans of inbred autistic people....), yeah I could go on but the goodness or badness behind it doesn't matter. They also always bring up that damn fact hans asperger called it "autistic psychopathy" and thinking he was on to something, like warning society about the dangers these "autistic psychopaths" pose. "Psychopathy" was translated from "psychopathierien" which in Austria in the 40s, meant "mind ill" and he explained it clearly in his paper why he chose it a middle ground between psychotic and sane, foggy. Does that mean the intro of the Flintstones where they say "we will have a gay old time" means the show is about homosexuality?
I just have no idea why the hell it is so...weird like this. The forum for spouses of sociopaths, narcissists, bipolars, schizophrenics, psychotic, borderlines, don't look like every poster has ADHD. Many of the articles about the "truth" about autistics is from one guy named Michael Fitzgerald who diagnosed Hitler and the Columbine shooters as autistic. The commentators and website posters need to approach it differently to achieve the result they want. I don't have much to write about the aspies since it's already been done, I don't feel put off by their posts since they are hard to treat seriously. I just feel bothered by some of the other ones. Autism is just one of many disorders, it's not so exceptional aside from being quite prevalent.
-Ga
Ga --
Thank you for reading all of this. Yes, a lot of people have assumed that I agree with them that Aspies are evil somehow, when I've said several times that they are in fact in many ways the opposite of sociopaths. I wouldn't quite use the term "harmless" -- Aspies punch way above their weight when it comes to mass shootings -- but in general, they are honest, and not manipulative, even if they are annoying.
I didn't know whom that comment was aimed at either.
To me, "autistic psychopaths" is almost an oxymoron.
And I don't think Hitler was autistic, though I could be wrong. I've been asked by various people if he was just a regular sociopath, and I'm not even sure about that, either. He was too successfully manipulative to have been autistic. And his mother adored him, which is rare among sociopaths (although his father was supposed to have been abusive). I don't know what to think.
The mass shootings are true. Autism increases the risk of violent behavior, but I've stated before I don't believe the violence is unusually high for a condition by individual, it's within a normal range for a disorder. I think schizophrenia per person percentage wise is higher than autism in violence. The reason we need to look out for autism more is that autism is more prevalent. I believe its between bipolar and schizophrenia, not relatively high for organic conditions. The fact 1 in 80-40 people have autism while 1 in 250-200 have schizophrenia means we will see around three times the incident of autistic violence even if the risk per individual is lower than schizophrenia. This theory should satisfy and not offend everyone.
Autistic psychopathy does sound like an oxymoron as a diagnostic term. It is possible to have both maybe, (I read about a Scandinavian guy who received both diagnosis, was some robber and made a fortune off illegal trading.) "Autistic psychopathy" was a term invented when you could say "that guy is a queer and very gay person" while being straight. A proposal I made before is to remove the fancy schmancy latin/greekness for organic conditions. The term "Selfshutting mindsickness" which is the literal translation of the Austrian 1930s "autistish psychopathierien" from German and is similar to the Chinese terms.
More proposals I have thought of for sexuality:
"Gay/Homosexual" could be replaced with something from the chinese word
"woman/man same nature long for" from noiy/lam tung sin liun
or "samewoman/manhoodlusthood.
Transgendered? "crossingsexed" from "kwaa sing bit" or "across sex distinguish".
Asexuality? "Lustlesshood"
Bisexuality would be "twolusthood" from "double sex distinguish" "soeng sing bit"
Then we could go back to saying gay and queer the old way without confusion and the other terms sounds too professional to be recognized by an uneducated person.
-Ga
Ga --
I wasn't talking about violence in general, I was talking about mass shootings, where Aspies definitely are overrepresented, given their proportion of the population. As far as schizophrenics, I can only think of one, the guy who shot Gabby Giffords et al, I think his name was Jared Laughner. Plus I always thought James Holmes, the aurora shooter, may have been schizoid, but I'm not sure. And, now that I think of it, I think the Unabomber may have been schizoid as well, though he was a different type of killer. Also, keep in mind, I'm talking about mass shootings, not serial killings, which are pretty much the exclusive province of sociopaths.
I'm actually not as crazy about your proposals for different terms for sexuality, since I think the common English terms are actually pretty expressive and self-explanatory. I did like your proposals for autism, schizophrenia, etc, though.
Oh and the question about Hitler. There are many disorders we don't know about yet. People didn't know autism existed until the 40s. People didn't recognize schizophrenia until the 1800s. It is sorta like that in Hong Kong, it doesn't matter if you are an aspie, bipolar, schizotypal, OCD, or whatever. You just get labeled "mr crazy", they don't single out a person for their specific condition, they just label you as "not normal". And the west has done that for centuries. There has been progress in diagnostic tools but we may not have discovered what Hitler had yet.
Hitler's condition may be one we have not recognized yet. Some psychiatrists use a tick a box method if they can't figure out where you neatly fit, they figure out all your behaviors (not the same as a symptom) and see where you fall into no matter what caused it, they diagnoses you with a dozen things just to make sure it's all covered. It's no better than the older method of hierarchical diagnosis (if you were diagnosed with a disorder higher on the scale, you could not be diagnosed with something lower, if you had Schizophrenia, you couldn't be diagnosed with ADHD even if you really had it). They've been doing both with Hitler. I think by the time we have figured out what Hitler did have if he did have something new, a lot of time will have passed and resources will be less reliable to future generations.
-Ga
I see, aspies may be more inclined to mass shootings as method. I will agree with you, but this may not be the case in countries where guns aren't available. James Holmes was diagnosed with schizoaffective I think. And Omar Mateen was heavily suspected to be bipolar. Not all mass shooters are autistic, but a large amount are because of the proportion of the population they make up and it may being their preferred style (at least in the USA).
Mass stabbings or using blades seem more common with schizophrenics like the greyhound bus killer, or the man who recently stabbed four people, three to death in Henan China in a mental hospital with chopsticks after escaping from his bed.
-Ga
Ga --
I"m going to remain agnostic on Hitler for now. I've never read a biography of him, and the fact that he's used now as the epitome of evil -- as in, far worse than Stalin or Tamerlane or Vlad the Impaler -- makes it harder to come up with an objective opinion of whatever his syndrome was.
I hadn't heard that about Mateen. To me, "Islamic radical" was the primary "diagnosis." Though it would be interesting, now the I think of it, to look into exactly what syndrome a lot of these suicide bombers/killers have; there have to be some patterns.
By the way, you write a lot of intelligent comments, and I appreciate all of them, so please don't be insulted if I don't reply at length -- or sometimes at all -- to all of them. I have a lot of other comments to respond/not respond to as well, plus I'm trying to keep up the blog, plus all the rest of my life, so please understand that you're not always going to get a lengthy reply.
understood
-ga
'Anonymous' at 7:49, 27th April -
"Autism increases the risk of violent behaviour"
No, it doesn't. Just the opposite, in fact. In fact, if a person happens to be autistic, they are far more likely to be the VICTIM of violence, not the perpetrator. Actually examine the statistics on this, rather than just swallowing the tripe the media dishes out in order to create fear, anger, mistrust, and a sensational story that will receive a lot of attention (and therefore revenue).
It really sickens me how so many people can just so easily swallow lies that confirm prejudices they already adhere to. Confirmation bias amongst neurotypicals seems to be prevalent to such an extent that I'm tempted to consider it to be an aspect of what it actually means to be neurotypical. 'Aspies', on the other hand, value what is actually true, and for this they are castigated for appearing to be 'insensitive' and 'lacking in empathy', even when the N.T. in question asks us for our "honest opinion"! To have a mind that displays such illogical thought processes, confusion and lack of clarity must be truly horrendous and frightening.
Peter
So, this may have been answered by you before, but what do you think of Mark Zuckerberg? Aspie or no?
Anon --
I've heard that said about this before. But honestly, I just don't know enough about him to have an informed opinion. It's certainly possible.
(Foreign so pardon my grammar) Thank you for bringing up this article, I know someone at age of 22 who has aspergers. Say this person's name is Alex, Alex is a very smart person who goes to a university. He is very good at his history major. Although, he is a huge hypocrite: stating one thing, that he truly believes, is wrong to do, yet he does it on regular bases; disregarding it as other reasons that pushed him to do so. He acts like he listens when he is forcefully Confronted, though that only lasts for several days before he runs away or blocks you. If you accuse him of something, he just reverses it to look like the victim and accuses you of being the exact same thing you accused him of being. This is another, and the biggest, problem he has which is running. He always runs from anything he can't handle, it's either his way, or the high way. He is terrified of being subjugated due to some dominance issue he has: He acts like he has all the authority when he's working, "preaching", or at school. He acts like he's highly intellectual, and as thou he knows exactly what you mean all the time. But it's mostly a bunch of excuses of him being passive or placing others above him, never could stand up for himself so it was mostly hollow bravado. In addition to running away, he always runs from clinginess, or any sign of serious commitments that he has to comply to. Other smaller issues apply such as inappropriate laughing at certain times, or the tight commitment he only has with his parents. Like a wild animal, he is very paranoid about everything: friendships and self image is a great example. He always got along better with those who are way younger than he is, which has led to some inappropriate behavior he greatly regrets.
-
To Peter,
It does increase the risk. But the risk isn't unusually high for a mental disorder/illness/condition going by individual. I believe it is more than bipolar but less than schizophrenia. It shows up on the news more because ASD has higher rates in the population, and the Streisand effect is helping, you want people to hate us even more? You see all the videos of autistic kids getting trolled and their parents getting harassed? It's similar to how modern gay pride only makes the backlash worse. There isn't much I can think of that can be done since the damage has been done except wait until it passes so some progress can be made. But going by the 150 angry autistic posts found earlier in this blogpost, I will have to wait a long time.
All I recommend to do now is just play by the same rules everyone else does. I know a person with bipolar (not revealing gender for privacy), and even though that person has a different disorder than me, I have much more sympathy for that person and feel more comfortable listening to that person's stories and sharing mine when asked. I would think I could find fellow autistics to relate to and find common ground, but I haven't except for one or two on the internet. Never in person. That says something. The sheer complacency of the professional community for not pointing out how absurd this pride is stuns me. I no longer look at Ted talks ever since they started celebrating autism. I am now considering avoiding Newsweek too. Thanks a lot.
-Ga
Yet your opinion is so wrong. Assuming any two people that share a neurological condition are alike just because most share social awkwardness. Just as anyone there are two words when reversed will get you reversed reactions YOU and WILL. Also don't assume anything about intellect or ability. I served 4 years in the Marine Corp and have excelled at everything I do despite my neurological differences. Perhaps it is you "sir" (And I use that term very loosely) that needs their heads examined.
I've been doing a lot more reading into autism and now have two problems with this post.
Firstly, Aspies *do* apologise, according to Tony Attwood. This is particularly true of female Aspies, who fly under the diagnostic radar because they often apologise immediately after a faux pas. Attwood et al. describe 'autistic camouflaging': the mask some Aspies wear to pass as normal, which women Aspies apparently do much better than the men, leading to the apparently wrong idea that there's more male Aspies. Being overly apologetic, amongst other techniques (studying how to do appropriate body language, manually learning what is polite to talk about, copying other people's fashion and hygiene habits, etc), is autistic camouflaging.
Secondly, there are many self-diagnosed Aspies - many who are later diagnosed professionally. It is actually rather easy for them to know that they aren't normal, especially if they've been shunned and bullied for years for being "freaks" and "weirdos" (see the Wrong Planet website for first-hand info from Aspies about this). With increasing autism awareness, many are suspecting that they are 'on the spectrum'. The problem now is men with other conditions being misdiagnosed with AS, as I suspect teenage murderer Lewis Daynes (a likely sociopath) was. It used to be that the opposite was true: Aspies being diagnosed with schizophrenia, personality disorders and similar conditions. Under-diagnosis among women probably remains a problem, though. I was reading how this is because the psychiatrists' perceptions of what Aspies are like are based on what *male* Aspies are like, and women Aspies aren't fitting those stereotypes despite having the same difficulties with social communication. I heard one story where a psychiatrist stripped a woman of her diagnosis because she studied languages at university, and he thought all Aspies are only good at maths & physics so she couldn't possibly be one. I wonder how many self-diagnosed women there are who won't seek professional diagnosis due to cases like that.
- Gethin
Gethin --
I've known two women Aspies, one fairly well, and the other very well. Neither ever apologized. I agree, though, that female Aspies are far more likely to fly under the radar. One of the ones I knew well made a big effort when in public, or with people she didn't know well; it came across phony to anyone who knew her well, but as far as the public at large, I suspect she had most of them fooled.
I agree that that psychiatrist who rescinded that diagnosis from the woman because she studied languages was being ridiculous. He should have his degree stripped from him.
Thanks for this well written post. I feel it is accurate from my point of view having gone out with someone with Asperger's and knowing other Aspies as well. Many of the online clinic descriptions seem to be inaccurate and "off" somehow. For example, it is often said that Asperger's people have above average intelligence. This could be qualified as they often have excellent memories for details and facts relating to their area of interest, but also an inability to connect related facts or data, look at patterns, or see the big picture. So, this is a very limited and specific type of intelligence. It is also said that Asperger's folks are honest. I have found Asperger's friends to be very honest overall, it is true. But not when they are pretending to be other than they are. One of my friends went to elaborate lengths to feign strengths that he did not have and cover up his weaknesses. Much of this can be quite obvious. For example, parroting what others say (sometimes right after they say it) and then pretending it is one's own idea, thought or theory. And not changing this behavior no matter how many times it is pointed out. It is like the Aspie doesn't have the self-awareness to realize how obvious and painful these deceptions are. Also, weaknesses can be twisted and turned into strengths in some of these descriptions of Aspie characteristics. My friend often has to be first through a door (unless in an unfamiliar environment, then he has to be first following the leader) and I've seen him frequently cut others off or slam doors in front of people such as parents with strollers. I would guess that the Aspie would say that he or she is not confined to arbitrary social norms like NTs and that this is characteristic a strength. Personally, I maintain that there are reasons for many of the norms we call manners and that it is kind and considerate to hold a door open for others.
Anon --
Thank you. I sometimes get the impression that some of the people who write cynical descriptions feel they have to appear "balanced," so temper their descriptions of weaknesses with supposed strengths, which are in fact either nonexistent or at least are characteristics which are misconstrued, as you describe.
My experience is that Aspies make poor liars, and poor dissemblers overall. I suppose that could be called "honesty," but it's not quite the same thing. And I've seen the same phenomenon you describe, where they will pretend to get jokes they don't, or go through the motions of trying to be gracious, but even when they get the letter of it right, they miss the spirit. And yes, their lack of self-awareness never seems to leave them.
To the latest anonymous,
I have ponder how much of the ASD symptoms are psychiatric or psychological, which are consistently cross cultural and which are not.
Being the first through a door for example by thinking "you are above the rules" sounds more pyschologically aquired since the opposite, extreme compliance and timidness/withdrawness may be the case in a society like an Asian one with tiger parents as compared to the leftist pseudo identity based fake individualism (which is sorta collectivist) of the west, while Asian society has a reverse of that. Collectiveness but refusing assistance for some "greater good" or "Self sacrifice" "individualism".
Other symptoms such as mental rigidity, executive dysfunction, and sensory issues are cross cultural and are psychiatric, not psychological.
-Ga
To John, I saw this question was asked before, but where do you classify people born with severe autism who made partial recoveries? Gained, or regained speech after regression, IQ points rised up to basic levels for survival, able to live alone and hold down a job, drive a car. But were banging their heads and screaming as toddlers, chewing on pencils as kids, but gained control later.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtgGzKRHT-Y
Is he an "aspie" or still fullblown autistic?
Where do they fit? Some I dare say even surpass who used to be diagnosed as "Aspies" (now Autism spectrum disorder level 1 out of 3 or was it 4?), I believe if the condition is not severe enough at first glance to gather attention, there is no pressing need for early intervention, which I didn't receive (and seeing how I am being surpassed by people who used to be mentally retarded, I do resent that). So the rare surpassing or catching up is because they took better action.
Like people who chew tobacco like my great great grandpa, he got mouth cancer but it was so severe and easily noticable they could treat it early, meanwhile someone with a mild form of cancer could go years unnoticed then it's too late.
-Ga
Ga --
Honestly, I'm not that familiar with the more severe forms of autism, I just know a little bit about Aspergers because I've known several people with it, some of them quite well. I"m not even familiar with those numerical levels you cite.
True, mild conditions, or mild-appearing conditions, will not garner the same attention as the more obvious ones. How are you being surpassed by people who used to be retarded? You're far smarter than most normal people.
It doesn't matter how high my IQ is, people with asd and also psychiatric problems are more unemployed than people with just plain retardation, it says something:
http://www.autismcalgary.com/what-is-asd/myths-facts/
According to this link: intelligence is the ability to use what you know, apply it in practical ways, then survive. I could be super "smart" but still lack practical intelligence, the subconscious automatic kind you don't think about for doing daily tasks.
There are rare stories of people who make miraculous strides from severe autism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6-PwVuYy2Y
Even if he is just making it up, there was this other documentary which did show quite clear evidence of a similar story. Started off retarded and head banging but now is a successful whatever. The person in that other documentary is still much smarter and more normal acting than many aspies despite being born more severe. There is the opposite, born not so severe who get worse later, they develop a bunch of comorbities and new disorders, like me, worse ADHD, anxiety, and depression. These two guys, if their stories are true, are examples of who surpassed me.
Even if each is mild on its own, they exacerbate each other, so I may be worse off than a person who is twice as severely (but only has just autism) autistic as me. I don't really have sensory issues but I have been noticing the aircon annoying me and sounds getting on my nerves, I just stoicly walk through them, i may have to force myself to sleep through noises. Lucky I never had meltdowns (yet, who knows if I will disintegrate?)
Sometimes you can see me sweating when faced with am annoyance, obsession I try to repress, or irritating trigge. Stuff like silly songs, infants, and the sight foods like grapes make me feel cringey, nauseas, or anxious, but I just hold it in and don't make any scene, they are not the problem. Those neurodiverse latte sippers assume because I don't believe those things are the problems or blame others for my discomfort, I must believe I am the problems and I must hate myself which pisses me off.
I had an ex boss, drank and partied, ate fatty food, smokes like a chimney, but he iss a great guy, he is still my friend, but I just resent how easy it is for him, no mental deficits. Is this how diabetics feel when they see people eating dessert and candies? I neither envy nor feel like praising the people who have it easy. They didn't deserve nor not deserve it, they just got lucky, why should I be angry at them?
I heavily suspect I had a later onset subtype, I was playing with kids and socializing normally according to my parents until 2-3, no abnormal behaviour, then it sorta crept in. Did those few years of normalcy give me a frame of reference that prevented me from drinking the pride group kool-aid? Implicit memory. Give me room for some common sense? Made me just not ignorant enough to feel bliss?
I DO know what I am missing. When I see couples or groups of friends bonding, the empathithizing, the brotherhood, I want to feel that. Back in school when kids played team sports which I didn't enjoy, I wanted to enjoy them. That scene from schindlers list:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRZh_NO5tic
I want that ability. And all the other crap, motor problems, mental dysfunctions, obssessions, weak sense of self, gone.
How else will I move up in Hong Kong? A competitive service economy environment centered around money and trade. I mourn for the person I could have been. Yup, self pity, but does that make what I say necessarily false? Of course it would have been easier without this handicap.
-Ga
Ga --
I was speaking of your IQ. Being in a service economy centered around money isn't perfect for someone with ASD. But there are options. You're still young. Have you considered becoming an academic? It's my impression that a fair number of them have undiagnosed ASD, yet still thrive in that environment. And a relatively high IQ is necessary there. You could become a professor of psychology. You're honest about your disability, that might help.
I may consider something similar like writing or being a freelancer for finance (not something im super passionate about but I got hired because I was very good with details and looking for errors/auditing other people's work), but Mike Rowe once said to not always follow your passion, but to take it with you. I can't ignore opportunity for dreams (look at everyone getting rejected from American Idol).
Psychology isn't really my thing, I think what I discussed was psychiatry with you. I am not a fan of many psychologists (the book writing kinds like Baron-Cohen). The human mind is an interest I have, but I suspect it isn't like a "special interest" because I actually come up with theories or ideas rather than hoard or obsess over everything without thinking about it like I did with other stuff when younger (they still bug me, seeing a special interest trigger from the past is like being a recovering alcoholic seeing beercans lying around). I don't talk about this brain stuff with other people that much but I did a lot of that here because I could talk about here on your blog since you knew some stuff.
But I need to build up a decent work resume which is vital in Hong Kong so I will push through a few more years so I don't look like a job hopper. Maybe then I'll have enough cash to get a degree in something practical and useful. Maybe something in computer programming since the tech market is rising rapidly in east Asia. Thanks for your patience. I do have a fear of criticism (and praise strangely enough, both make me feel scared) which holds me back from blogging or getting myself out there so I kinda did it all here in your comment sections.
-Ga
Ga --
Writing is a tough way to make a living, especially if you're a freelancer, you have to constantly scramble.
I"d say psychology IS your thing, in a way, it's mostly what you've talked about here, and you're obviously passionate about it. You have a lot of original insists about it, some of them duet your ASD and your general obsessiveness. (In order to think originally about anything, you have to be somewhat obsessed with it.)
I can't argue with the practicalities you're describing about a resume, etc.
Even though I have Asperger's, I did still find myself agreeing with a lot of this. I've noticed I tend to do some of this stuff over the years, either by analyzing my own behavior from when I was younger or by having it pointed out to me. My symptoms have seemingly improved, or become more manageable over the years, I think in large part because I had a pretty good level of support in school. Either way, it's actually rather embarrassing to look back on. None of it was really my fault, as I couldn't help it, but I definitely why people found me a massive pain while I was growing up. I also definitely understand why people would still find me annoying. I've improved a lot over the years, but I no effort to pretend I'm anything close to normal. I'm just slightly less insufferable.
Alicia W. --
To tell the truth you don't sound insufferable at all. It's always the people -- with ASD or otherwise -- who have no clue that they're insufferable who are the most insufferable. And trust me, everyone has embarrassing behavior to look back on over the years.
You've actually brought up an interesting point that I may make a new post out of, about the difference between people who've been diagnosed with ASD -- and therefore are at least somewhat self-aware -- and those who haven't. It's those who haven't who are the most insufferable of all. The two people I know best who have it have never been officially diagnosed, and therefore make no attempt to reign in their own behavior, and think they're in the right all the time. a large part of this post actually described the behavior of one of them.
That's definitely true. Knowing and not knowing make a huge difference. I've been diagnosed since I was a toddler, since my parents were concerned enough about my behavior that had me evaluated. It's just something I've always been aware of. I can definitely see how not being aware of it can result in one being utterly insufferable to deal with. I also have to wonder if it can also depend on how severe the case is as well. My case is more on the mild end for Asperger's. I have some of the traits, but not all. I don't have a problem maintaining eye contact, and I don't speak in a monotone voice, for instance. I think it helps a bit that my thinking is not as rigid as you describe other people with Asperger's as. I'm aware enough of how other people act and talk, as well as mentally flexible enough to admit that I might be wrong in some areas, such as in my behavior. More severe cases would definitely not be capable of this.
Sunburst223 --
You're right, there's got to be variation within Aspergers, just as there's a difference between Aspies and those further into the spectrum. I also think it has to do with IQ, I would guess that Aspies with higher IQ's are better at hiding their Aspergers. One of the two Aspies I know best has a very high IQ, therefore people don't recognize him for what he is as easily, and are also more likely attribute any eccentricities and willfulness to him being "weird" because he's so smart. But now that I recognize it, it's there front and center.
A lot of the undiagnosed cases seem to be of older people, too, they grew up in an age back before Aspergers was recognized, so of course went undiagnosed.
The fact that you were diagnosed has obviously made you self-aware, and has allowed you to take a step back and look at yourself clearly, and thus make up for various (mild) quirks.
I wonder how Al Gore did it, I mean, he was vice president for a while, is wealthier than most people. Even if I am not a fan, I wonder why he could graduate with great scores from a university and go on to rise to where he is despite numerous handicaps. Just how is he doing so much better?
One thing that helps is having great parents, I don't know about Gore, bu Temple Grandin had excellent parents and family, and numerous mentors, they raised her well and didn't tolerate bad behaviors, she spoke of how she was expected to be polite, keep her mouth shut, wait at the dinner table, not act out, how she learned to control meltdowns. She has criticized the poor parenting given to many autists born today. A shame, for every bad thing she says (she is a folk hero in neurodiversity, argggh!) she has one great insight.
Even if it is not anything special with Gore or Grandin, it's a hundred times more than the typical autist like me is doing or has done. What do you think about Gore though? How could he even do it? I just can't wrap my head around how he had so much success compared to the rest of us autists. I work a desk job I barely get through. Meanwhile Al Gore has a net worth of 200 million USD.
What is he doing better than me? How did he surpass me?
-Ga
Ga --
Keep in mind, Gore was a tremendous beneficiary of nepotism. His father was a Senator, and the Gores were a very prominent family in Tennessee. And, when he was young, before he got fat, he wasn't a bad-looking guy -- he looked "Senatorial," which always helps someone who want a career in politics. And his manner of speaking -- as if he's addressing a bunch of fifth graders -- which I've always found extremely off-putting, at least makes him sound sincere. Plus, he went to Harvard, so people tend to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's smart.
And often, once someone's career gets to a certain level, often it will just keep going of its own momentum. All of the money he made was because of his stint as VP. He got into a niche as a spokesman for the environment, milked that for all it was worth, opened up shop as an approver of green investments, and voila, he was worth $200MM.
Also, keep in mind that he was a sentimental favorite of the Left after losing the 2000 election -- in a disputed manner -- to Bush. So he had the media on his side, and not that much was made of his personal hypocrisy in being one of the greatest abusers of the environment himself, what with his huge houses and huge carbon footprint.
Never underestimate the role that luck and circumstance play in someone's career.
(I don't know much about Temple Grandin, am only vaguely familiar with her.)
okay I happen to have aspergers syndrome I did have a meltdown because I beat myself up for coming off as judgemental and so far every comment ive read about this article is very annoying at this point you sound like your insulting each other
I have aspergers syndrome so I know how it feels but you can not judge a person just because they have a small melt down several people learn harder than others because the parents never taught them cough never gave them a proper diagnosis so they grow up with social awkwardness how stupid you guys were going back and forth
I realize that you intended to post the Aspie traits that are offensive to NTs...
But with the way you wrote this article, those who can't be bothered to read this in its entirety, will likely not end up being "educated" about this disability -- but rather, they might become condescending to those affected with the syndrome, or worse, treated with utmost hate.
Just because you were able to perfectly point out the traits those Aspies you personally know, it's not right how you seem to label all an Aspies as someone who should be despised (that's the general idea lazy readers will get from your style of writing for this post).
I know three Aspies who'll immediately believe that the facts they've been holding on to for a long time are actually wrong and are actually appreciative when corrected.
One of them even tried to dismiss how he's the person who has the highest IQ in the high school he attended in when I found out about it, telling me that it didn't seem (having a really high IQ) to do him that much good.
They're probably the most loyal friend a person can have because they prioritize their friend's happiness over theirs (although sometimes in awkward ways), as I've learned from befriending one.
Anyway, the way you wrote this is just doesn't seem right. You might push more people to start hating Aspies, not knowing that they also have redeeming qualities because you've managed to infuriate them enough with the offensive traits to not bother reading the rest of the article.
Lightpost --
Actually, my original intent was to let NT's know that if they run across these types of behaviors, that it's not just someone being a jerk on purpose, it's a specific syndrome, and that they should be aware of that. I'll admit, there was a little bit of venting going on too, I've found the Aspies I've known quite frustrating to deal with. If I'e known such as you describe, I was unaware that they were Aspies. (And the Aspies I've known prioritize their own convenience/happpiness over others'.)
Okay feel like venting, and I finally found a way to put into words what's been bothering me by some of the comments on this post. I was upset by the posts by people who were angry at aspies/autistics. But not for the same reason. They were upset since their precious autism was attacked, I was disturbed because describing the way people with autism are.
I am not talking about the posts about people with spouses who cause their lives hell like in that heartless Asperger website I saw in the link about. They can rot in hell.
What did bother me were comments from people who are not discussing suffering from relationships but were just talking about people on the spectrum from their own opinion having never been in a relationship. Being described as having no emotions, soulless monsters, being like psychopaths, how much they despise all of us. And this is coming from a human rights perspective (not pride, I care about people with autism, NOT AUTISM).
All these sites talk about or posts talk about all autistic people, not spouses, I say fuck the spouses, fuck them. But I feel offended when it talks about children or non-spouses or people who are on the lower end.
Sites like these:
https://theneurotypical.com/articles_page.html
Some articles have nothing to do with relationships I mean like:
"Trump and the language processing of a four year old."
What does this have to do with ASD?
"Autism Mums Have Stress Similar to Combat Soldiers"
This is about severe autism, like retardation and head banging, what does it have to do with relationships?
https://theneurotypical.com/conversation-with-an-adult-with-hfa.html
This one, it is not about relationships so much, but it is...I don't like it somehow. Maybe some of it is true, but it's not clinical I believe (I'll get to that)
http://psychopathsandlove.com/psychopathy-or-aspergers-syndrome/
Also about relationships, but those parts I repeat don't bother me, it's the other stuff about people with autism in general.
Some of these can be true, a similar example is black people and crime/rape. Do they commit more? Yes. But....should so much energy be devoted to loathing them the way some people do with ASD people on those sites?
I am not in a relationship, nor will I wish to ever be in one.
I even once mentioned to someone on a post who claimed "autistic people have no emotions, are monsters etc." This wasn't about relationships (which I agree are terrible for the spouse) I said "But the suicide rates are high and depression too, they can have feelings" And he/she said "That's because they are just dead inside, it's not from existential crisis or unhappiness, they have no feelings, they aren't human"
That is what bothers me. And I feel some of the posts on this particular blog post say similar things. I've seen severely autistic people who are sweet loving, and those on the high end who are soulless robots, I think it's a personality problem caused by childhood. Some get help and nurture, while others are not bonded with. So it maybe is character disorder not medical. But they insistently imply it is clinical.
Some of the spouses who suffered then go after the children, they start talking about all people on the spectrum badly, I even read about how a parent doesn't love their child and refuses to get any help or education for her...How did it go from bastard spouses to the kids? I just...if I woke up normal, I would be able to leave this world behind. I hate this world of trolls, neurodiversity, anti vaxxers, some of the types of people from the above sites...
Not everyone has the attitude you have. You said aspies/asd are not psychopaths, you told one guy not to commit suicide in one of the previous comments, you are commonsensical yet you are not afraid of being politically incorrect, you acknowledge mass shootings, how annoying and unreasonable, and more, but you don't call asd all soulless monsters or the scum of the earth, you talk to me and are patient despite my exasperatingness. I wish more people viewed it the way you do. Not positive or negative, bleeding heart or bigotry, just realistic as it is.
More and more of these sites are no longer about relationships, just loathing autistic people.
-Ga
Ga --
Thank you. The Aspies I've known haven't been soulless monsters at all, in fact in another post I said that they are in fact the opposite, in a way, of sociopaths; they're merely annoying and lame. (If they WERE soulless monsters, I'd say so.) Some are actually quite sweet, and kind to animals -- as well as incredibly annoying and lame at the same time.
I just feel so disturbed there is a sizable group of people who hate people on the spectrum irredeemably. And what makes it worse is nobody steps up to defend our rights, (they step up to defend autism! I want more people like me speaking opinions, less of them!).
I once read an article about a 5 year old autistic girl (lower end, not aspie) who was raped, but the principal of the school brushed it off saying "She can feel anything like a regular person, it's no big deal"
And there are a lot of people I've seen who make similar comments on the internet. And I suspect some people who have posted in your blogposts harbour similar leanings...it's a bit of paranoia maybe, but I just feel like some of them are like that.
It disturbs me. And it also pisses me off when other autists act like asses and only make firm their convictions more.
I even saw someone write:
"the suicide rates are no big deal, it's from deadness and apathy, they aren't unhappy" on reddit
Others include "they are incapable of loving their parents, they just want keepers since they are emotionless beasts"
"It's an absolute waste for professionals to help them, they should be shunned and kept away from the rest of society"
"The should should be tested and branded so that us normal people dont get our lives destroyed." (Note the context this was said in i will mention below)
"Has anyone thought about the societal cost of letting these things live and breath?"
"I don't want them close to any of my schools, no special education, keep them trapped away"
(The above are not referring to relationships with adults, like I said, those fuckers who ruin their spouses lives can rot in hell, this is about children and all across the spectrum in general, including the fullblown mentally disabled end)
I even read a self diagnosed borderline complain he gets no sympathy or help for his struggles while autistics (referring to full blown, not aspies) do when he deserves it more, and people up voted that comment on youtube.
I just feel so disturbed, these aren't trolls but regular people holding these views.
Why is it like this? Note these quotes I chose are not about spouse relationship (fuck those bastard spouses for the 100x time), they talk about the children and the lower functioning end! Well the question must remain rhetorical. There is no answer.
And I find I'm the only person upset by this in this sort of way! Not a single peep from other people on the spectrum, they get angry when Autism ITSELF is talked badly about, not the patients human rights! They actually oppose many things such as therapies that help patients or any research into better treatment. That pisses me off.
So once again, I am alone. I can't find another person who views it how I do.
Anti-vaxxer, neurodiversity, people who think gluten causes autism, internet trolls, legitimate bigots (not people who have been hurt and feel trauma, but people who just hate all people on the spectrum without history with them), and lazy big pharma (promising drugs aren't underway since there is little incentive for profit, transcranial magnetic stimulation another treatment isn't being invested in since since no profit, there is no incentive to improve current medications since patents haven't expired...), all this madness surrounding me.
Is anyone on my side? I know you aren't on my side in the sense that you feel passionate about these things, but your common sense views are the closest to any sort of sanity I have found at all give or take 2-3 people I've seen online, but in person, zilch.
-Ga
Ga --
Ignore them. I'm actually amazed thats so many Aspies have found this post. It has to have been linked on several sites for people with Aspergers. I've written over 2600 posts, and maybe 10 or 15 of them deal with Aspergers Syndrome. (Way, way more deal with sociopathy, probably well over 300 of them.) Yet this is by far the most widely read and commented upon post I've written. And why would a site for people with Aspergers link to this post? There has to be a certain masochistic streak being expressed there.
I wrote this back in 2011 because I had finally figured out what Aspergers was, what its symptoms are, and why certain people in my life had acted the way they did. And I wrote it partly to vent, but also partly to explain to people unfamiliar with the syndrome what they were dealing with if they knew anyone who acted like this. As you can see from all the original comments, a lot of Aspies took this post very personally and are enraged by it; I don't entirely blame them, as I said, I wrote it partly to vent. But if they don't like it, they shouldn't keep coming back, or linking it elsewhere. And my advice to you on this score is to not go to those sites where people express their hatred of Aspies.
Thanks John, I need to learn to have thicker skin. I don't know why I was drawn to looking there. Although the one article about what that principal said about the girl, I stumbled onto by accident (if I find it, I can link it, but there is no need I think)
But your post is not a hate post. It's like you said, just a post to vent and it wasn't going after children, spiteful, vitriolic, sadistic, etc. and about the entire spectrum (including the lower end) like the comment's I mentioned. They were hatred of all autistic people not aspies (sorry to be pedantic, bad habit).
Your post's I repeat are not hate posts at all. Real hate posts are like this facebook page once which said "if we get 50 likes, we'll find an austard baby and set it on fire."
or that story of what the principal said after and autistic (classic, not aspie) got raped but "good thing she is autistic, so she won't be traumatized", that shit.
Nowhere did you say "Kill yourself as painfully as possible, and clean up society faggot" which is a real youtube comment I saw on a video when an autistic guy posted he felt depressed (I think he was regular autism, not aspie). That is what makes me angry, not your posts.
Also I hate to be more nitpicky but those posters who got here from linked sites, they weren't enraged or angry because you offended them personally I believe. It's because you spoke badly of the condition itself, they don't care about stuff like what that principal said or the human rights of people on all areas (not just the high end) the spectrum like I do. It's important to remember that when dealing with them. None of your posts qualify as bigotry, if they did care, they would go after the actual hate posts and trolls.
-Ga
(Second day of valium high, so I am writing a lot, duuuude maybe I should stop, ah well I will run out)
Speaking of which, aspergers or autism? I suppose there is some transitioning but the former term is being phased out. The American DSM removed it, the European ICD is planning to do the same thing. Its just Autism Disorder 1,2,3,4 (least severe to most) now.
The only criteria for an asperger diagnosis was 3 things: speaking on time instead of late, no mental retardation, self help (like covering yourself in a blanket if cold) is not delayed.
THAT'S IT. Otherwise, you got classic autism diagnosed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GoGf2jEibM
Retarded and unable to talk until 4 but graduated with a masters degree and is a novelist.
If you diagnosed him as an adult years ago, aspergers, but as a child, regular autism. What is he?
The did the same with schizophrenia, they used to have subcategetories:
Paranoid (What it says on the tin)
Disorganized (Chronic with lots of apathy and depression)
Catatonic (What it says on the tin)
Latent (Latent)
Residual (After partial recovery, residual)
Simple (No hallucinations or psychotic episodes, just all the other symptoms)
But they removed them because they were useless and now just have "schizophrenic disorder" and can add "with added paranoia/catatonia".
But back to the big confusing question, how do we refer to and categorize people on the spectrum? When do you choose "aspergers" or "autism"? What if they "caught up" like the guy in the video as adults? It's confusing. Is the guy in the video an "aspie"? But technically he is not. Do you have any criteria when to use "aspie" or just "autistic"?
-Ga
Ga --
I know "Aspergers" as a separate syndrome is being phased out, now it's all just autism. But I still use it for convenience's sake. to me, Aspies are people who are functional, but socially backward. (And some are extremely intelligent, like you.) I still think of "autistics" as those who can't get by in society.
Omg, so many people in denial. I have been married to an Aspie since 1986, and I can tell you it is exhausting and has ruined my health and life. I stay because I have become so chronically ill, I now need his help to care for ne which is a nightmare! Do not marry one! The poor memory issues alone are enough to kill you when the person has this and has to care for you.
Anon --
I've heard that 80% of marriages where one partner is an Aspie end in divorce, though I've never been able to officially corroborate that figure.
My sympathies.
I hope you don't behave in the way you write, because you come across as a real bastard.
Anonymous Aspie --
I'm afraid I do.
Wow! What is life made your panties get in a pinch? You come across as someone with a LOT if issues....anger being a big one! Jeez.....off ALL the blogs I have read....you stand out like a spiteful, neon sign. I feel for those around you on a regular basis.
Unknown Aspie --
Well.....one of the things is Aspies, who are unable to logically argue against what I've said, and can only use ad hominem attacks. I've known a few Aspies well, and every single one of them is that way.
Hello, John.
First of all, I'd like to apologize for all the hell that a few, what I'd like to call, "tox-spies," that is "toxic aspies," have put you through. Yes, I'd love to assure you that even no 2 Aspies alike. Maybe there is some truth to the 16 types/ 4 temperaments model (for instance my temperament is said to be NF and my type is said to be ENFJ, and this may be why we are so different Aspies or not. Yes, I'm also on the spectrum myself and a woman.
Whenever I'm criticized, though I'm trying not to do it as much, I end up criticizing myself even more. I have a tendency towards self-doubt in very bad amounts. Whenever I'm complimented, depending on what I'm feeling that day, imposter's complex kicks in later on, although they do mean a LOT more to me than you can imagine. Yes, I do thank people for them, nonetheless. I've got someone in my life who, unfortunately, seems convinced that I'm some kind of narcissist, at worst. Or, sees me as an extreme people pleaser, at best. Now, I'm not at all here to condemn you, because now that I've read the post and all the comments from both Aspies and NT's alike healthy or not. I don't blame you for needing to vent about the toxics that just so happened to have Aspergers or HFA.
I'd love to have a partner/s and have tried to. However, I've never seemed to have much luck with it. Maybe the most recent one who I reciprocated interest romantically in who felt for me thought I was troublesome (I'm what some would call a demi-heterosexual, and at least predominantly if not entirely hetero-romantic). I even came out of the closet about it (having HFA.) My love life pattern is another story for another time.
All in all, I worry that I'm gonna hurt someone, especially partners, without meaning to do so. How that came about is yet another tale for later. I've got a number of stories to share with you if you'd like. But I'm not gonna overload you with those here, though I have been on a life-long journey to self-awareness and self-knowledge.
While I'm a staunch extrovert, I'm always reflecting on things that I've done in the past and am planning to do in the future, and always concerned about how I'm coming off in the present time. Even so, it seems that I can never seem to show the "right" things at the "right" time, though friends have viewed me as being blunt, honest, hilarious, talented, caring, sweet, creative, observant, insightful, and, in some cases even empathic. Which I admit is sweet, and I feel lucky for that. On the other hand, whenever I f--- up, I question how anyone, never mind my own mother even puts up with me.
Siamese Kitty --
Thank you, but no apology necessary. First, you needn't apologize for what others do, second, the other Aspies haven't put me through any sort of "hell," the ones who've lashed out at me are merely showing who and what they are, and in a roundabout way they've done me a favor by illustrating some of the points I made in the post.
You're right, though, not all Aspies are the same. And you're an example of that, if you react to criticism by criticizing yourself even more; in my experience, most Aspies react to criticism by lashing out, even if the criticism is constructive and well-intentioned. (I'm not claiming that my criticisms aren't just venting at times.)
You also seem to have more self-awareness than most. As for your love life.....most of us have pretty messy histories, when it comes right down to it. And most of us can look back and see nothing but a series of mistakes (not just in terms of choice of partner, but in terms of our own behavior). So you're not alone there.
First I see how old this thread is but I’m going to reply anyway. I think most of us tend to disregard what we feel conflicts with our world/moral view or bias. I think that self esteem can play a HUGE part in learning to take in new information and use it and it is also part of the very complicated dance of social interaction that many people with aspie traits find frankly exhausting. When you don’t have as many mirror neurons as NT people it is difficult to catch subtle cues. We may exasterbate it as NT we have been taught to avoid anything thing that may seem rude or hurtful which also means most of us do not want to be direct with others. And when we finally are direct with our aspie friends and family - it’s after we have gotten to the point of complete irritation from dancing around it like idiots ourselves. Now everyone is worked up and there is tension and misunderstanding and no one likes to be wrong, that’s human nature. So what you may see is a person who is less willing to hide their true feelings about NOT feeling wrong as well as not coping well with criticism because self esteem has been greatly diminished from unsuccessful social encounters since childhood. When they are criticized it really hurts because it’s proof that they are not “normal” or “getting it” or “fitting in” AGIAN. That’s soul crushing because many people who feel they aren’t normal just want to be normal even though when you gain a healthy sense of emotional maturity I can tell you there is no such thing as normal. There are only different types of people with different types of skill sets, attributes and weaknesses. We all have them. I can assure you people with aspie traits find our traits as completely unbearable as we find theirs at times. But the thing I find unfair with your rebuttal is that you are not allowing Aspies to have a personality, rather you are attributing all of the points you find negative twords bieng an aspie . That’s a very narrow view. Yes there are traits that pop up, but you have traits and do do I and they are not our entire being. You see if we did not have people on the spectrum we wouldn’t have things you take for granted, like electricity, theory of relativity, combustion engines, technologies...etc because these concepts were created by people who had aspie skill sets. There are worker bees who have attributes evenly spread they are NTs and you have specialists that are on the spectrum and both are absolutely necessary for this world we live in. Your article did feel as if you were angry and attacking people with Aspergers, I think they were copying your own tone and that’s a totally “normal” thing to do. You want to know how these people think? Watch Temple Grandin on Youtube and that will shed some light, maybecease the frustration. It’s like we are speaking different languages, and we are from different cultures or planets and we just have to try to understand each other a little better. My son is an aspie and I think he’s suffering terribly. He’s lost, no connection to others, drifting alone and doesn’t handle critics much at all because his ego is raw from bullying so he struggles to grow and its a tactic used by NTs as well to struggle with bieng wrong. Aspie does not = Narcissism that is a false equivalence. They are just people who think differently than us but are valuable and worthy of love and acceptance.
Wow, such an accurate post.
Since starting a relationship with someone with aspergers a couple of years ago I have gone on a lot of forums and websites and read a lot of articles and find that a large part of the views/responses expressed by the aspergers' posts are very similar and defensive. They seem to take nothing away from the articles that they would be prepared to learn from. Many articles from psychologists who specialise in aspergers or even some persons who suffer from aspergers, confirm that people on the spectrum can learn to adapt and change albeit parrot fashion. After all when you get to "know them" for the first time they have less aspergers characteristics then they do down the line. One thing I find particularly in common is that persons with aspergers, whether they can help it or whether we (NTs) like it or not, are extremely self centered. Their world revolves around them and them only and if anyone has an opinion that differs from theirs or someone does something that they do not agree with (even if whatever is being done is quite above board) they get upset and angry but cannot handle it if you point out or comment that something they are doing that is totally unacceptable is not cool.
The people that they get close to are basically expected to serve them - make sure they don't get them upset or calm them if they are upset, fit into their routines, do and go where they want and suck it up that there is no reciprocity in most areas. Now, most people I know are quite able and willing to compromise, to recognise and put someone else's needs before their own, to be supportive if circumstances require it, so in the beginning, when the demands and expectations from the person with aspergers are first expressed the NT adjusts to them and incorporates them in their life. But that's only the beginning...the longer you spend time with the person with aspergers the more they cannot keep up the original facade they had been putting up and the more of the aspergers personality comes into play. You're expected to tolerate more bad behavior and are not entitled to express yourself or your dissatisfaction without it turning into an unpleasant situation. They get angry at the smallest things and you aren't allowed to get irritated with them or go against what they believe in because then you're not fulfilling the role of serving and supporting them - all the time your needs and expectations are blatantly dismissed and there has to be a fight to get your point across and even then it falls on deaf ears at the end of the day. This is not what you thought you were signing up for. Relationships have to be two fold, give and take, if they are going to survive. Aspergers people constantly expect more from you when you feel you have already compromised yourself to the point that is unacceptable to you. This is not what anyone looks for in a friendship/relationship with someone else.
When someone with aspergers is not upset (there are times which in my experience gets less as the months go on) and things are going their way they are amazing people to be with. They can actually be kinder and more understanding than many because they've been subjected to what they perceive as a cruel world. During these times you feel sympathetic towards them that their lives are harder - that a large part of the daily society they live in does not understand them due to the nature of a lot of the characteristics of aspergers. They don't understand the life or how it works and so they mess up, behave inappropriately, are frowned upon as a result. Their anger gets the better of them and their is no filter or thought process before they act so they are usually on shunned...but then the moment of calm passes and they're wired again and you have to put up with the crap all over again...
Anon --
Thank you for that. Your description of the cycle ones goes through with an Aspie is perfect. I too have fallen into the trap of almost "forgetting" that a person has Aspergers, only to be reminded on a regular basis of their essential craziness. Sometimes I think that all people who have regular contact with someone with either Aspergers or one of the Cluster B syndromes (sociopathy, narcissism, borderline, or histrionic disorders) slowly develops a sort of Stockholm Syndrome mentality, and just adjusts their own personality as to keep conflict with the "syndrome person" to a minimum. We don't buy into their mindset or world view, but we almost act as if we do just to keep the eruptions to a minimum.
You're so right about an Aspie's essential selfishness. They have to get their way, all the time, or else. It doesn't come from the same place that narcissism comes from, but the end result is the same: they have to have their way. And over the long run, it gets extremely tiresome.
I'm also frequently struck by the facade that they manage to put up, and how long people can be fooled by that. (In this they are not entirely dissimilar to Cluster B personalities as well.) And when people who don't know the Aspie well tell you something like, "Oh, he/she's so wonderful, so smart," all you can do is nod your head in agreement, otherwise you look like a nasty piece of work. I always want to say, "Are you fucking kidding me? So-and-so is a completely clueless, emotionally immature loon!" But social propriety requires us to hold our tongues.
All that said, you're also right about how Aspies can be, on another level, very good people. They tend not to be dishonest, conniving backstabbers. Maybe that's partially because they're simply incapable of the machinations required to be that way, but again, the end result is that they can also be, at one level, very decent people.
Great blog post and extremely accurate except for the part on your last comment where you said they are honest. On the contrary.
The ones that I know lie like it's second nature and they are also very sneaky and deceptive if they want to be.
Justine --
Thank you. Hmm....the ones I've known have been, by and large, honest and actually, somewhat honorable. And in my experience, when they have tried to lie, they're so lousy at it they're generally easy to see through.
1of3:
"I don't know how -- or why -- the brain would get rewired so that someone becomes incapable of interpreting others' actions, but people with Aspergers have little insight into others."
It's not that their brain GOT rewired, but that they were born that way. Their thought processes are extremely logical, and certain actions or feelings that get misunderstood are simply a problem of applying their learned information inappropriately. Say Sally just made a delicious dish and AS kid says "Wow it's so buttery," Sally may interpret this to think AS said it was TOO buttery or it was gross to eat(and get offended), but AS kid was just stating facts and probably had no negative thoughts toward it(but now the AS kid is confused as to why Sally is upset, and worried that it will happen again). Giving offense with an unexpected angry reply is rather common with AS, and it does not preclude ability to interpret actions, just they read them & apply logic differently than NTs. They take past experience and try to avoid negative situations but also try to apply positive reaction knowledge in the wrong places (telling a gal that a certain outfit makes her bum look beautiful & thicc could lead to a negative reaction, or a positive one, depending on who the AS person said it too. But if they told their gf that first and she was pleased, they may erroneously think it's something that's ok to say to anyone, and it is not.) (Or trying to avoid a negative reaction could end up causing another, eg: BF tells ASgf not to tell certain things to a friend because they'd blab about it to mutual friends, so later on the ASgf tells said friend not to talk about certain things at all, to which the friend then tells the BF that the gf said that. The confusion that arose here with this couple is that the bf now believed the ASgf is keeping things from them, lying to them, when in reality to the ASgf it seemed the easiest way to get everyone on the same page. That's the kind of AS logic that is incorrectly applied to this situation, thus causing feelings of mistrust in the BF and the confusion on the ASgf.)
2of3:
"In my experience, people with Aspergers try to compensate by acting as if they know things they don't, especially about people. And they try to act as if they are in on the joke." I feel as though this is a shortsighted statement. People with AS have coping mechanisms to "fit in" or when they're applying their logic to situations, and they aren't acting as though they know things that they don't, they're trying to apply their understanding to a situation. In a social discussion they may miss the underlying subtext to what someone says. Like an NT saying "omg I can't just stay here working all day, I need to be outside!" an AS may reply with something like "Oh let's see if we can call someone in to cover your shift or work something out" which is met with "I wasn't asking that" faces on the NTs present, they were just venting about being cooped in at work and not being able to go out, but they were not asking for their shift to get covered. This seems to be more common with AS vs NT conversations. ASers may assume the wrong subtext of a conversation. ALSO it is common with AS that they apply their version of knowledge to any given situation, sometimes with full details in the wrong direction. Like NT talking about the sounds their car, then NT starts "joining" the conversation by elaborating on what each sound could mean from their knowledge on the subject, which usually either ends with NTs saying "wow thanks I'll look into that" or more often "TMI, I tuned you out a while ago" "We never asked that, we were talking about something else" or they just turn away without a word. That last part reaction of ignoring the ASer, a person with AS may seem to have no feelings when they just turn back around go on about their day, but they are probably mulling over why that interaction went so poorly.
"This is what people with Aspergers generally do: try to pass as normal. But no one can keep such an act up forever, and when you get to really know them, their autism is unmistakable." It is true, those undiagnosed and diagnosed do try to "pass as normal" and it is frustrating when people write them off without trying to understand them. There's a whole mess of research on why someone with AS goes undiagnosed because they got so good at "fitting in." But they still think differently, and their coping mechanisms sometimes fail and their ASness becomes apparent. They process sounds and sights differently, heck most of them think in images and not words. But a large majority of them learn how to reel in those different thoughts, hold off before making the wrong assumption, and try to be understanding from the perspective of their fellow classmates/co-workers. The last part of your sentence belies an intense negative feeling towards someone with AS. It is not an "act" when they try to fit in, they are adapting. You should really think of them "trying to pass for normal" as them translating their way of thinking to fit in with any given situation/conversation. Just as with arguments, finding a common/middle ground is crucial to be able to relate and be understood. Someone with AS is constantly translating the way their brain puts information into a way that can be understood by others, and vice versa. If they laugh at something everyone else is laughing at, it may actually be funny to them, they could also be laughing at the way so&so laughed so hard they spit their soda out, but they do find things humorous and I hope you weren't implying that they only laugh because others do/because they think they should, that's an absurd thought.
3of3:
There's much more to comment on, but I don't have the time right now. You seem to have some of the more negative associations with Asperger's and are lumping all people on the spectrum with these only-applies-to-some opinions. I did read the whole article, and it's a shame that you'd say a couple of correct things, but then finish with a statement that proves your distaste for people on the spectrum. While I can understand you may be coming from a place of someone who's been hurt by AS, it isn't fair for you to make blanket statements on the whole spectrum of Autism because of it. But hey it's your blog, spread the misconceptions and vent away. I'm hoping you will become more accepting of differences between NT & AS one day soon, and maybe help others see & understand those differences
-I'm a therapist, and I help those on the spectrum smoothly integrate into society.
Anonymous Therapist --
Thank you for all that, much of it makes sense. Your analysis of AS/NT interactions, especially in Part 1, is enlightening. BTW, when I said "I don't know how -- or why -- the brain would get rewired...." I didn't actually mean their brains GOT reward at some point in their lives, I was speaking more from an evolutionary perspective, i.e., being autistic would seem to be an evolutionary disadvantage, so I don't understand why some people get born this way. I understand that Aspies don't BECOME that way, they just ARE that way.
One point of disagreement. I knew one Aspie quite well who would never laugh at certain jokes if they were made privately, but when she's in public she will laugh at the same types of jokes because she wants to appear to be "getting" the joke. What other possible reason could there be for this change of behavior? She didn't suddenly gain a sense of humor; far from it.
You're right, this post did consist of a lot of venting on my part. But if you look around at some of the other responses I've gotten, you'll see a lot of rage directed at me from Aspies, but also a fair number of people who've said something to the effect of, this sets my mind somewhat at ease, you've described my Aspie husband/wife /boyfriend/girlfriend/ coworker well, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who reacts this way to him/her.
What you're doing is noble work, and I'm sure you've helped a lot of people. But what I've described is something a lot of people have experienced, and we shouldn't try to whitewash Aspie behavior (although trying to understand it, as you've done, is laudable). And btw, I think one topic that should be explored more is the number of recent mass shooters who appear to be on the spectrum. (Certainly not all of the shooters, but Aspies are definitely punching above their weight.)
Anonymous therapist
Thanks for your informative posts, they are helpful but probably a lot to absorb and take with and apply in everyday situations when interacting with someone with AS. What I do have a problem with which I don't think you touched on - is why do people with AS not learn from their previous gaffs and don't seem to be able to apply what they have taken away from previous experiences. Just as one example - my friend with AS will forget to fill his car up with petrol regularly - so every time I get in the car I will ask if he has enough petrol in the car and he'll say that there's plenty only for me to check the gauge and it's almost on empty. He gets very angry and upsets and things the world is against him when he runs out of petrol because it's a mission to get his car started again but he doesn't learn from that and ensure that he always has enough in his car. Now, I understand that this may happen to NT people to and not necessarily be an AS condition only but this is only ONE example. I have a half a dozen I could tell you and not only about practical things like petrol. I just don't get that aspect why there's an incapability of applying and adapting from previous experiences. Perhaps you can explain... I find it extremely frustrating and my logical way of thinking has very little patience for it.
Anon --
Sorry, but chances are you won't get a reply from Anonymous therapist; most people don't return to check comments, particularly when they disagree with the gist of a post, as he/she did with mine.
BTW, I've noticed the same thing about Aspies, that they tend not to learn from experience the same way that NTs do; it can be frustrating.
Thank you for this post. Even though it was written close to a decade ago, I found it quite soothing. I have been dealing with someone who has Asperger's that I used to be friends with, and their behavior is unlike anything I have seen before. Most people I've come into contact with who have AS are pleasant people who while not the most social people, at the very least are respectable and considerate of my feelings and beliefs. This person on the other hand, I question if they even have AS. But reading through your blog entry shows me that you too have dealt with the same I have with this person.
I relate quite well to several things you have pointed out.
- The rigid thinking where they ignore facts and choose to believe misinformation spread by others.
- When this aspie makes a mistake, they either ignore it when I bring it up with them or they find some reason to place all blame on me. Out of the three years I have known them, they have never apologized for their bad behavior. Not once. I don't believe its that they don't understand, I beleive they just simply do not care.
- This aspie shows several narcissistic traits such as gaslighting, projection, lying, triangulation, silent treatment.
I believe there is a stereotype associated with AS, that these people are unable to be a-holes, that they are just simply misunderstood. I think they can be as much of an a-hole as the rest of us who do not have AS.
Gemini --
Thank you for the acknowledgement. I actually think that Aspies are unable to be a certain type of a-hole, in that they're not good at lying and manipulation the way a sociopath is. I agree with you completely about the rigid thinking, the inability to apologize, and the inability to admit having made a mistake. projection, but I'm actually a little surprised to hear the Aspie you're describing engages in gaslighting and triangulation, those are activities I associate with Cluster B personalities (narcissists, histrionics, borderlines, and sociopaths).
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