The people I've known who have Aspergers Syndrome would frequently castigate others for their behavior. They were forever telling others that they were acting inappropriately, as if they themselves had any sense of what was appropriate or not.
With Aspies, it's as if they think the sheer vehemence of their disapproval will somehow demonstrate how sane and socially clued in they are. The equation goes something like this: the more offended they act, the more they think they are proving how refined their sensibilities must be.
It's pathetic, but that seems to be how they think.
It's not dissimilar to liberals who claim to be offended all the time. They seem to think that by saying, "I find that really offensive," they are demonstrating moral superiority.
Sometimes I feel like responding, to both sets of people, "Ah, what an exquisitely sensitive and enlightened person you must be -- especially compared to a moral reprobate like me!"
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What bothers me more is the identity politics of it. You don't see people with other disorders defending their right to not be treated. Instead with ADHD (interestingly over 60% of aspies will develop ADHD in child or adulthood, do you see any traits of that in them?) we have to defend our right to take our medication and therapy since people deny it exists.
http://www.asianscientist.com/2016/11/in-the-lab/epigenome-profiling-autism-gis/
You have a little over a decade before the drugs come in. You probably will see a gigantic backlash at them refusing to take them and will write posts. Protests maybe will happen.
After two decades you may not need to write any more posts about younger ones, children can't consent to not taking them, you will instead be writing about older aspies who are "stragglers", hiding in society refusing to swallow the pill. If only they can make it a law like with other disorders that intervention would have to take place. On the other hand I image waves of other aspies lining up to take it desperately.
-Josh
Lol, you could say that, but you'd sound like a pompous derriere. How about a hearty: "F-ck you, you twat faced b-tch"?
I know a young guy with aspergers. My first impression was what a nice kid. He's full of love towards his friends and is equally over the top in how scathing he is against the sportsmen/teams/politicians he doesn't like. He does seem like he's trying to fit in in a way.
Reminds me of the Leonard Cohen lines: 'I'm good at love, I'm good at hate, its inbetween I freeze' (been working out but its too late, its been too late for years).
The "I'm offended" pose is immaturity and hyper-femininity. Most kids nowadays haven't gone through a lot of the life-forming experiences past generations have. They are eternal children, babied until long past childhood.
At some point someone will say to their "I'm offended" exclamations, "big fucking deal." And maybe belt them in the mouth.
They'll learn.
Puzzled
Josh --
True enough. I actually do think people should have the right not to be treated if that's what they want, but the idea that Aspies are "differently abled" or have some sort of advantage is ridiculous. It's a big hindrance, to them and to the people around them, and should never be painted as anything else.
Honestly, I've never noticed a correlation between Aspergers and ADHD. Not denying it exist, just saying I've never noticed it myself.
Anon --
Since I've been accused of being a pompous derriere anyway, it probably wouldn't make any difference. Your suggestion sounds as if it would result in a fight.
Steven --
Yes, I've seen the trying-to-fit-in thing a fair amount. Often it consists of faking laughter when they see others are laughing, or of trying too hard to appear cynical and knowledgeable. Or, trying to tell everyone else how to behave, as if they have any clue themselves.
Puzzled --
I'm not going to be the one to belt them in the mouth (they might hit me back), but that is what they need.
Not sure that most of them will ever learn, though. Most of the hard core Lefties I've known seem pretty much incapable of that. It would require having to drop their pretense of moral superiority, and admit their entire thought system is based on lies, which would be pretty much impossible for them.
Are you frightened the "differently abled" groups will get in the way of researching treatments?
Every dollar they suck away or waste may be adding on more days till scientific breakthrough.
But why do you believe have they been so successful? Every other movement for mental disorders in the past have been treated as a joke and died quickly. I think it is convenience, identity politics are in full swing and this disorder was discovered relatively recently. Your thoughts? You do notice how odd the legitimacy they are given is when they haven't or don't give it to other disorders, no? Is it a conspiracy?
-Josh
Also, the phrase "different not disabled" pisses me off. It is a clear denial of the existence of disability in the world. It shouldn't be confused with "different not less" used by AutismSpeaks which has a completely different meaning.
-Josh
Josh --
Actually, I hadn't even been aware of the whole Aspie liberation movement until people -- mostly you, I think -- started to mention it on this blog. No, I can't imagine they will get in the way of treatment, though. Scientists should be able to operate independently of politics, at least until it comes time to actually implement their discoveries. I have no idea why, or if they're successful. I would guess thats a lot of the online Aspie support groups just sort of morphed into a sort of political movement which started to insist that they were just as good. The cheerleading of the "We're differently abled!" type took on a more political hue, and took on the language of the various other identity movements which are currently fashionable.
True enough, you never hear of schizophrenia liberation, or sociopath liberation (except on this blog, as a joke):
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2013/09/sociopath-liberation.html
The Aspies are behaving in their rational self-interest. Their interests are not your interest.
The Aspies have limited means of social interaction. Accusations of inappropriate conduct seldom work for them, but they are often the best strategy an Aspie has for social survival.
When a man has no sword, and he has to fight with his fists, there's no point sneering at him for being one of those fist-fighters. He does not have the means to fight respectably, so he must fight disreputably.
If the Aspies were to try to get along, they would be trampled by petty, sneering people who hate Aspies just for having been born. Thus the Aspies who survive will be those who fight. And those Aspies who fight are not going to be pleasant to watch.
Foreign country maniac --
Interesting blog you have.
Yes, your way of looking at it makes sense: in a way, it's their only available strategy, so they take it.
This kid is nice though John. He shows a lot of love to his friends. You seem to have only a negative view of the aspies personality...don't they differ enough to get good and bad, likeable and unlikable ones?
Steven --
Overall my experience has been negative, but you're right, there is variety. I think I've known Aspies I've admired, but I'm not even sure if they had the syndrome.
@John Craig:
Thanks, glad you like the blog.
Postscript to previous comment: I am generalizing because most Aspies I have known have been socially disadvantaged. I have excused them for fighting dirty because most of them had been thrown under the bus by society. I don't get angry at people struggling to assert themselves when I see them being crushed by others.
If I ever met an Aspie in a position of social power, I would not excuse his/her attempts at social dominance; desperate fighting is justifiable for regaining balance, not for perpetuating imbalance.
Gaikokumaniakku --
Both Al Gore and Bill Gates are widely thought to have Aspergers. Gates doesn't strike me as a combative sort (other than in business), but Gore had a somewhat domineering personality, at least that was the impression I got watching him in the debates. I found him to be extremely off-putting. His manner of speaking always made him sound as if was addressing a class of third graders, which made him come across very condescending.
What is your connection with Japan, if I may ask?
"With Aspies, it's as if they think the sheer vehemence of their disapproval will somehow demonstrate how sane and socially clued in they are."
Or it could be a simple case of psychological projection with no deeper thought involved. They behave inappropriately so they assume everyone else does too.
- Gethin
Gethin --
That's possible. But I've seen them in action when they really ramp up the vehemence of their disapproval when someone is present whom they want to impress with their "social awareness." It's as if they're performing for that person. And if someone is acting inappropriately, a quiet little cue is usually enough to bring that person in line; big, violent, showy gestures just draw more attention to it.
You've probably had a lot more contact with Aspies than I have because I'm yet to see that trait (though I believe you that they do that).
This isn't relevant, but is poor personal hygiene a typical Aspie trait? I'm asking because I had a colleague at work who was a diagnosed Aspie and he stank strongly of body odour. My boss asked me to let him shadow me for a few days whilst he was very new and I had to pretend I was too hot so I could open the window to get rid of the smell. After that, I did get to know him a bit (thankfully, we didn't have to sit right next to each other anymore) and I thought he meant well; I never saw him deliberately do anything wrong, he was quick to apologise for any mistakes and we did have some interesting conversations. I never came up with a polite way to ask him to change his clothes more often though so I never said anything. I've read in textbooks that Aspies prefer it when people are open and honest, but reading blogs on Aspies made me worried he'd be offended after all. Did the Aspies you knew have poor hygiene? If so, did you come up with any polite ways of asking them to change their habits?
- Gethin
Gethin --
Honestly, thats not something I've ever noticed with them. Not saying it couldn't be true, just saying I haven't noticed. And I've known plenty of NT's (neurotypicals, in Aspie-speak) who DO have bad body odor. At my gym there are a couple of guys who don't seem to wash their workout clothes, they must just put them in their bag after their workout and then must just take them out again for the next workout, because you can smell them from 15 feet way, and they really stink. And there's another guy at my gym who reeks of cigarettes (he doesn't work out, just uses the steam and jumps into the pool to do two slow laps, that's it). But I don't say anything to any of them, I don't need the static. I've decided, though, that smelling bad like that is a form of rudeness, it's as bad as talking loudly on a cell phone in an enclosed area, maybe worse.
The one's that deserve compassion are the one's that ask for it. In other words, neurodiversity members won't get any. I think they end up harming autistic individuals rather than helping them. Maybe if the emphasized the suffering, deficits, and struggles and admit they need help rather than being a bunch of asses, then people will have sympathy.
Anon --
Couldn't agree more. An Aspie who won't admit he's ever wrong, who constantly criticizes, and who may not even admit he has Aspergers, does inspire sympathy.
I want to apologize on behalf of us. Maybe someone with asperger's hurt you, I am sorry if that happened. Or if neurodiversity attacked you, I know they can be awful.
I sometimes wonder if reincarnation exists, maybe I'm just burning off bad karma in this life. I better not make any new bad karma.
Do you think something in society can change? What is the best solution now? How can we make the world better despite ASD having to exist.
Maybe society is paying for some sins, I read plastic is linked to autism. I am the result of humanity harming the enviroment. I would like to believe there is something besides dumb chance.
Anonymous Aspie --
No one with Aspergers has hurt me. Aspies aren't evil like sociopaths; they're just annoying.
But, no apologies necessary.
I don't want to be annoying.
Does it have to be a part of who I am? I don't want it to be. I want to be an individual.
Anonymous --
We can all be annoying from time to time, though Aspies tend to be more so. And we can all be less annoying by making an effort to be less so. (Confession: I sometimes try to be more so.)
I know one Aspie who wasn't annoying at all.
It's hard having a horrific disease. If I knew you in person and I were to let you know in real life I was autistic, that may make you stop seeing me for who I am.
It sounds strange, but be thankful you turned out healthy. I've been at war with God over this since I was a kid.
Anon --
The Aspies who are least annoying are those who admit they have it and try to counteract it. Honestly, you don't sound annoying. For annoying, look at the first 200 comments I got on my original post about Aspergers Syndrome:
http://justnotsaid.blogspot.com/2011/08/aspergers-syndrome.html
Those people are annoying, not just to me but I'm sure in real life as well, and for the same reason the narcissists are: because they'd never admit they're wrong. You don't sound that way at all.
That's true, those posts are annoying. But I am disturbed by some of the comments of the people annoyed by aspies. I can't help but imagine a scenario where they would have a double standard and be sympathetic to someone with another disorder,
Life is already hard enough. I don't want to be attacked on the street or called a subhuman.
Honestly, I imagine you've removed or filtered out posts from people telling them to commit suicide or calling them retards.....
Wouldn't they be at fault too?
Anon --
There were no posts telling them to commit suicide, or calling them retards. And I've never heard of someone being attacked on the street for having Aspergers. Think of some of the extremely successful people who are widely thought to have it. Bill Gates. Al Gore.
As far as sympathy goes, I think people are naturally inclined to be sympathetic to anyone who admits he has a weakness. The people who are annoying, as I said above, are those who never admit fault. Are Aspies more likely to be that way? Yes, but that doesn't mean they're all like that.
Okay.
As for the famous people,
I don't think Bill Gates has it. He is charismatic and social.
I don't know about Al Gore. He was successful in school and sports so I'm not so sure.
Maybe both are on the spectrum, they have some mild form of autistic phenotype but not aspergers.
I don't like how the others like the 200 posts you said are ruining it for everyone. If it's anyone hurting me or autistic people I think, it's them. They are making it harder for people with the same disorder as them who want to be left in peace.
Anon --
I disagree about Gates; I don't think anybody has ever described him as charismatic, and the fact that he's "social" is merely a function of his money bringing him into contact with lots of people. I also don't think Aspergers precludes spots success.
I have Aspergers and some of what you said is on point. Other things not so much. I try not to correct as much as I used to and admit I can be annoying (though less so as I've gotten older). I constantly add to my social cues list to help make social interactions easier.
I would say in some cases I (I don't know about Aspies in general) do have an advantage because of the disorder. For instance I'm more willing to offer help to new coworkers, have an excellent memory, see solutions to problems others wouldn't consider, and can remain calm under pressure (at 10 I made a 911 call when my mom died; the operator and others said afterwards I was calmer than most kids would've been at that age). Needless to say, there are numerous disadvantages too, and some neurotypicals haven't been kind about it.
I didn't know inability to accept criticism was an Aspie trait. I've actually asked people to criticize me to help improve social interactions among other things, so if it is one it's not one that I possess.
The point is I know I'm different and can be annoying and offensive at times (usually unintentionally). My advice to other Aspies is to try to learn social skills. I'm living proof it is possible.
Again you have some valid points. My main issue is that you generalized an already misunderstood group when it affects people in very different ways
Unknown --
You sound quite reasonable, and I'm inclined to take you at your word. I'm merely writing about my experience with Aspies, which I've found quite frustrating. And I don't mind criticism myself, but when that's combined with a complete inability to take criticism on the part of the critic, I find that hypocrisy annoying.
Well if that's your main problem with Aapies it isn't a symptom I have. Again I suppose others could have it. I have been treated poorly by neurotypical people because of my naive trusting nature, so it's kind of hard not to feel resentment. Wait did I bring this thread back after two years?
I know someone IRL who is either autistic or has a personality disorder (undiagnosed). She is 26 but, from speaking to her, you'd think she was 16. She got admitted to a group a few weeks ago and, within six days, was banished for incessantly moralising to the other members over trivial things. The group leader theorised that she's doing it to gain attention by finding any old thing she can admonish others for, so she can feel ethically superior. I would add that she's never had a long-term job. She's only ever worked two jobs and has been dismissed within months from both. She also barely has friends. So I think she is incessantly moralising as a way to compensate (in her mind) for these obvious deficits.
I hadn't realised that this is frequent Aspie/narcissist behaviour.
- Gethin
Gethin --
That does ring a bell. From the way you describe her, I'd guess she has Aspergers. The lack of awareness of the impression she is creating is telling. If the group leader is right, and she's doing it to get attention, that might mean histrionic disorder. But in my experience histrionics will do all sorts of outrageous things just to be the center of attention, and this woman just had the Aspie fault of excessive moralising in an attempt to show how "good" she is.
Thanks for this. I hadn't thought of it like that before.
Just so I'm sure I've understood correctly:
Her excessive moralising is her way of showing everyone what a "good" person she is, and thereby gain popularity? By incessantly condemning everyone, they will see what a morally-superior individual she is and flock to make friends with her?
If so, I'm in shock that anyone can be so socially clueless. Being admonished is the last thing people want, particularly over trivialities. Tbh, I'm tempted to send her a copy of Dale Carnegie. But I'm making a genuine attempt to understand Aspie mentality here.
After being expelled from the group, she sent 11 messages to its leader in the early hours of the morning, wailing about how unfairly she feels she's been treated. After all, from her perspective, she was only ceaselessly reprimanding everyone to help them become more moral, so she hasn't done anything wrong...
It's the third group she's been banished from, in the space of four years. If I'd been ousted from so many groups, I'd do some serious soul-searching - whereas she thinks the only reason she was dismissed was because she was mistreated.
- Gethin
P.S. other than universally scolding everyone over trivialities, she doesn't do any other attention-seeking behaviours. So it's probably not HPD. Also, she has a poor fashion sense (trousers that need hemming and creased shirts) - which matters because histrionics usually have good fashion senses.
Gethin --
Agree, it's not histrionic personality disorder. She's attempting to show people how good she is, hoping to win approbation that way, but as an Aspire, she simply has no clue about how to go about doing that. (Nor would she be inclined to do any soul-searching, as that would require some self-awareness and an ability to admit where she's wrong, two things Aspies totally lack.)
Should I buy Dale Carnegie's book and anonymously slip it into her mailbox? Even though she is horrible to everyone, I feel sorry for her as she is clearly suffering. Since she always blames everyone else for her own failure to get on in society, she is clearly incapable of self-reflection. But maybe if an anonymous person sent her a book, she might read it.
Or do you think it wouldn't make a difference?
- Gethin
Gethin --
Nice thought, and if she actually read it, and took it to heart, it could make a difference. But I honestly doubt she'd read it, given that she likely thinks she doesn't need it. And there's a good probability she would feel tremendously insulted that someone felt she needed to read it, and would focus her anger on that anonymous gift-giver. So, personally, I wouldn't bother. Her problems aretooc deep-seated to be solved by the presentation of one book
You're right. I think you mentioned before that Aspies are narcissists, who can never admit to any flaws. I'd be wasting my time and money.
Have you read Robert Greene? He styles himself as the "Modern-day Machiavelli", so I figured he's right up your street. He covers narcissists, wilful depressives and similar losers in his books. In one of them (I think 'The 50th Law'?), he says that people who excessively moralise are invariably people who don't have fun in their own lives, so they begrudge fun in others. Since they can't explicitly say that, they do it indirectly by incessantly moralising. I can tell you now that the aforementioned woman definitely doesn't have fun, and probably secretly hates people who do. Greene's advice for dealing with such types is simply avoiding them, since they'll go out of their way to make your life as miserable as theirs.
On a slightly different note: do you know much about Paranoid Personality Disorder? A friend, who also knows this very troubled woman, reckons she fits the diagnostic criteria for PPD. The main reason she thinks that is because the woman often interprets neutral or friendly actions as having been hostile, and reacts with actual hostility - which is baffling for those who don't know what is going on.
I listened to a video (less than 5 minutes long) by a doctor on PPD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drzKThkBLOc
Does that sound like people with Aspergers? Based on what I've seen, I think there's some overlap between Aspergers and PPD.
- Gethin
Gethin --
Just took a look at the video. There's a lot of overlap between different syndromes, though Aspergers and PPD aren't two that ever would have occurred to me. There is supposed to be strong co-morbidity between narcissism and paranoia, and I've witnessed thane in person. That one makes sense, in that with both groups, it's "all about them," as the psychiatrist in the video said about PPD. (And to answer your question, no, I hadn't been familiar with PPD as a separate syndrome; was quite familiar with the trait, and how it manifested itself elsewhere, but not as an official syndrome of its own.)
I think what I said before is that Aspies are LIKE narcissists in that they can't admit when they're wrong. They aren't actually narcissists, and give off a whole different vibe. All the narcissists I know would give off an air of being quite pleased with themselves all the time, which Aspies don't.
Totally agree about those who can't/don't have fun disapproving of others who do. The classic example was of old people disapproving of the "morality" of young people who have sex (of whatever kind) because they themselves are past the age where it's possible. A lot of leftist politics has at its root this sort of jealousy: of good looks, of brains, of athletic success, of money, etc. Look into the early lives of a lot of leftists and you'll find this "root cause."
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